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Post by Dahzek on Aug 20, 2003 4:16:23 GMT -5
So...maybe it just slipped by me, but I don't recall seing any female Clerics (counting the groups training in the movie etc) anywhere in the movie.
Did I just miss this, or are they indeed non-existant in the movie?
If so, why is that?
Is it a plot issue? Would it be to emotional provocative to have female Clerics mix with the male ones?
Are the Cleric to be considered some sort of a monk like order, except they have "wives"?
Or is it strictly a movie-making desicion?
Personally, I miss the female Clerics. Over and over you come across people (men mostly) arguing that women can't be as competent fighters as men. I think both my peronal experience as well as history shows that that is complete BS.
I think it's more matter of motivation, being given the opportunity, and of training. Also, choosing not to fight might actually be considered a sign of greater insight or maturity...not necessarily a sign of weakness. However, none of this means (in my view at least), that you are not c a p a b l e of fighting per se.
It is also said by many that the greatest weapon of any fighter is his/her brain. Nuff said.
Anyways, I've come across many women (in Martial Arts, Fencing & Firearms training, as well as Military Service) that are most competent fighters. Hell, many of them kick serious male butt.
For me, it's not so much a question of male or female...it's a question of great motivation and training or not.
So I ask again...where are the female Clerics?!
Peace
Dahzek
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Post by Cleric Baltaak on Aug 20, 2003 7:35:40 GMT -5
History has always seen men at the forefront of dictatorships such as the one we see in Librium...
The movie is based on a patriarchal society headed by Father. In the movie, women are not clerics. But who's to say that they couldn't be part of the Council? Nowhere do we see the Council. It could be here that the female aptitudes could have been put to good use for the community at large as opposed to putting them in harm's way. I, too, would have liked to have seen female clerics in action. Emotionally, women are stronger than men in many situations. So it stands to reason that they would make excellent clerics.
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Post by ClericRyan on Aug 20, 2003 7:49:52 GMT -5
I always thought that there probally were female clerics, its just that EQ was too clean a movie to add any random aspects like a random female cleric. And law enforcment has always been a prodomantatly male profession, but I can picture female clerics. Just very few of them, so we dont see them in training or in action
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Post by Agi on Aug 20, 2003 8:55:14 GMT -5
So I ask again...where are the female Clerics?! Peace Dahzek Maybe because it is totalitarian world and totalitarian leaders don't need women anymore (read: they don't want them to maintain high and important positions. Just like in some countries today) Looks like future belongs to males or what??? But I personally think Kurt Wimmer simply didn't have a $time$ to develop this detail
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Post by Agi on Aug 20, 2003 9:01:31 GMT -5
And Yes, we girls can kick some ass too ;D ;D ;D
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Post by ClericRyan on Aug 20, 2003 10:08:31 GMT -5
Females actually are better suited for hand to hand combat then men, this is hard to belive because combat has always been male oriented, but IMO, a female is faster, and has more deadly potential then a male, since strength is a very small factor in combat, the female has always been the more likely candidate for an assassin. About 50% of animee, and a lot of ancient eastern history involves female heroines
another plug for CTHD, that movie really showcases female fighting abilitys ;D
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Post by JenGe on Aug 20, 2003 10:44:25 GMT -5
Maybe this is why Wimmer is making Ultraviolet. ;D
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Post by Sus cant sign in on Aug 20, 2003 10:50:57 GMT -5
I missed the female Clerics too. It would have been good to see some. BTW, I can't seem to sign in, it says my username does not exist. I haven't been here in a while, have I missed something?
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Post by JenGe on Aug 20, 2003 10:58:29 GMT -5
BTW, I can't seem to sign in, it says my username does not exist. I haven't been here in a while, have I missed something? Let me go take a look. I may have to give you a new password or something. Expect an e-mail from me soon...
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Post by Sus on Aug 20, 2003 11:07:12 GMT -5
All fixed, fantastic. Thank you. Apologies for interrupting the thread.
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Post by ClericRyan on Aug 20, 2003 11:14:09 GMT -5
Maybe this is why Wimmer is making Ultraviolet. ;D my thoughts exactly
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Post by Trinity on Aug 20, 2003 12:40:48 GMT -5
I'm thinking that Jen is right about Libria being Father's society and thus, male-based. Another thing to note is that when DuPont is asking Preston about his family, Preston replies that he has a boy and a girl, and that the boy's in the monastery, training to become a cleric. He doesn't say this about his daughter. This leads me to believe that a female becoming a cleric is not an option. However, it may mean that the girl is still too young to train, but I don't think so.
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Post by Cleric Baltaak on Aug 20, 2003 13:40:40 GMT -5
I'm thinking that Jen is right about Libria being Father's society and thus, male-based. Another thing to note is that when DuPont is asking Preston about his family, Preston replies that he has a boy and a girl, and that the boy's in the monastery, training to become a cleric. He doesn't say this about his daughter. This leads me to believe that a female becoming a cleric is not an option. However, it may mean that the girl is still too young to train, but I don't think so. Great point..!! ;D Trinity, could you copy and paste this into the Observations thread. It's an excellent observation ;D
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Post by Trinity on Aug 20, 2003 14:20:02 GMT -5
Great point..!! ;D Trinity, could you copy and paste this into the Observations thread. It's an excellent observation ;D Thanks very much, Cleric Baltaak! ;D Sure can. Done! Thanks again! ;D
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Post by JenGe on Aug 20, 2003 15:08:46 GMT -5
I'm thinking that Jen is right about Libria being Father's society and thus, male-based... I would love to take credit for this due to the parallels between other male exclusive priest/cleric orders throughout history but it wasn't me. ;D (check who it was...)
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Post by Faust on Aug 20, 2003 17:03:14 GMT -5
It would have been nice to see some female cleircs, but using the 'tough' female device is becomming a little cliche in movies, a bit like the muscle bound male in the 80's and 90's (Arnie, Sly, Van Damme etc) Although having done martial arts for nearly 13 years I will have to disagree with some of the comments made about women fighters. Yes, they are very good, in terms of technique usually much better than men but in sparring certainly inferior. It is a generalisation but the strength advantage for men is a large one, men can develop speed through training but its very difficult for women to develop muscle. I would guess its also lack of the 'killer instict'. Women, simply, arnt built to fight. In general its not in their genes, as seen in the Preston hand to gun combat scenes (eg, before the pistol whipping) he used brute force, and this prohibts such actions for women. Dont think of me as sexist, as in this modern age its very easy to criticise men but when doing so with women you come across as bigoted, misogynistic and what-not but its the same reason why women arnt allowed to fight in front-line combat or in such vaunted bodies as the SAS. In the UK there was a big examination recently as to whether women should be allowed to fight on the front line, althought most dont want to, tests showed they didnt compare well to men in endurance and strength tests its just how they're designed. Im happy that equality is finally becomming a reality, but in a way its a bad thing, just because some options are avaliable dosnt mean they should be taken. In my line of work I prefer female directors to men, they're less directly competitive and more willing to compromise but sometimes you need a man's headstrong attitude of instant decision making. IMHO a womens true strength is in her psychology and her mind, in her ability to form emotional bonds. But thats a whole other nature vs. nurture argument.
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Post by g3po on Aug 20, 2003 19:25:04 GMT -5
It would have been nice to see some female cleircs, but using the 'tough' female device is becomming a little cliche in movies, a bit like the muscle bound male in the 80's and 90's (Arnie, Sly, Van Damme etc) Being a female, I can't thank you enough for making this observation. We (females) have gone over to the complete opposite end of the spectrum. We're not sexpots or pushovers, but now unfeeling killing machines. While I love a woman who kicks ass, I do enjoy more subtle approach sometimes. Women aren't sexy anymore, they're not complex, and increasingly they're not “real”. You're the quirky friend role, the sexpot frat girl, the old crone, or more increasingly the action hero. One of my favorite “action hero” roles was Ripley in Alien. She kicked ass, she was intelligent, and because of that was sexy without needing the wet bikini. Another favorite female role is the Marquise de Merteuil in Dangerous Liaisons; she’s so deliciously evil. Subtle, but evil in its truest form… I think the problem still lies in the lack of opportunities for female writers and directors getting more great parts out there for actors. But I digress... Although having done martial arts for nearly 13 years I will have to disagree with some of the comments made about women fighters. Yes, they are very good, in terms of technique usually much better than men but in sparring certainly inferior. It is a generalisation but the strength advantage for men is a large one, men can develop speed through training but its very difficult for women to develop muscle. I would guess its also lack of the 'killer instict'. Women, simply, arnt built to fight. In general its not in their genes, as seen in the Preston hand to gun combat scenes (eg, before the pistol whipping) he used brute force, and this prohibts such actions for women. Hopefully I won't insight more controversy and get too off topic, but I agree with you again. Women have large hips, longer arms, and have a completely different center of gravity than men. That doesn’t mean they can’t kick ass, but it does mean they can’t compete (at the extremes) with men PHYSICALLY. The strongest man will always be able to outperform the strongest female. That doesn’t mean that women can’t outperform men in general, but the fact is that they are at a disadvantage physically. In closing, I really didn’t go into the movie having the expectation that there would be female Clerics. I viewed the whole world not only as a patriarchy, but also like the Catholic Church. There are no female priests/bishops/whatever. While I too would love to see a female Cleric, I have to say that I don’t “miss” seeing them in EQ. At the end of the day, putting a female Cleric in the mix would have completely changed the focus of the movie, creating more problems for Wimmer and completely taking you away from his thematic statement. There’s a reason it’s called EC-10…
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Post by Trinity on Aug 20, 2003 19:41:03 GMT -5
I would love to take credit for this due to the parallels between other male exclusive priest/cleric orders throughout history but it wasn't me. ;D (check who it was...) Oh, no! Thanks for letting me know, JenGe. "An almost unforgivable lapse, Cleric." Cleric Baltaak, can you ever forgive me?
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Post by Cleric Baltaak on Aug 20, 2003 22:27:07 GMT -5
Oh, no! Thanks for letting me know, JenGe. "An almost unforgivable lapse, Cleric." Cleric Baltaak, can you ever forgive me? No apologies necessary We're family and knowledge shared and spread by word of mouth or letter is considered flattery in my book ;D
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Post by Cleric Baltaak on Aug 20, 2003 22:34:30 GMT -5
It's nice to see a woman taking sides on the gentler side of the fairer sex. Killer remarks, g3po. I didn't want to quote you and eat up some space, but I definitely see your point. I'd have to say that in my eyes, G.I. Jane takes the cake for sexy and ass-kicking in the same breath. She would make for a very formidable Cleric. The similarities to our conversation and her adversities in the movie stand the test of time and arguement. While possible, the number would be far and few between for female clerics, but those that were would be a special breed. Since there are only male clerics, it's hard to see one that stands out, such as Preston. A female cleric at first sight would automatically indicate that she is unique ;D
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Post by ClericRyan on Aug 21, 2003 8:31:26 GMT -5
I could go and quote some of the statements but there are so many that dis agree with me, its overwhelming actually and Im surprised a bit, but not totally
Oh g3po, a dune fan claiming that females are not as able of fighters as men. Did Leto2 not teach you anything? lol Im kidding. But you know that the BG and later the HM are the most feared fighters in the universe.
Again, all I will say is strength has very little to do with combat ability. Yes men are stronger, but Bruce Lee was not the strongest man, and he could probably kill any opponent in seconds. The problem is in today’s society females are looked at as weaker, inferior and less able. IMO, this is due to magazines and television, movies as well. But anyone who knows ancient Chinese or Japanese history, (As those of you studying martial arts should know) Females are historically some of the best fighters, warriors, soldiers, assassins. Also, if you want to talk about physical abilities, and stay in this time even, almost all the new fighter pilots that the air force and testing facilities are using are females, the average female can handle 3 times the G force as the average male. Also, the lower center of gravity makes the female harder to take off her feet, and I also believe that females have always had more dexterity then males, therefore making them better and faster with a sword.
But we can always agree to disagree and I will not push my point any longer or harder. But again, IMO, Females have the POTENTAIL to be the most deadly fighters.
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Post by sabeltandcavia on Aug 21, 2003 8:54:54 GMT -5
Women and gun kata would make an excellent combination I think. Think of the moves in gun kata like kung fu and aikido. In both those forms of martial arts, women can be, and usually are AT LEAST as good as men.
Just look at a movie as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and you'll know what I mean. By replacing muscles and strength with speed, technique, and, of course the gun, women should be technically even to the men in gun kata.
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Post by ClericRyan on Aug 21, 2003 9:00:48 GMT -5
Women and gun kata would make an excellent combination I think. Think of the moves in gun kata like kung fu and aikido. In both those forms of martial arts, women can be, and usually are AT LEAST as good as men. Just look at a movie as Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and you'll know what I mean. By replacing muscles and strength with speed, technique, and, of course the gun, women should be technically even to the men in gun kata. THANK YOU!
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Post by sabeltandcavia on Aug 21, 2003 9:09:46 GMT -5
Just a random idea..
It has been mentioned before by someone else: the law enforcement world always has been predominantly male.
But that doesn't mean there are no female clerics.
What I think COULD be going on, is that all infants are tested at a very young age, maybe as young as 5 or something, to see how strong they are (physically AND mentally) and how fast they learn. Then from among those children the best are selected to be trained in the monastry.
That could explain why Preston's son is in the monastry, but his daughter isn't. Perhaps she was too young to be tested, or perhaps her score wasn't high enough.
Just my 2 cents..
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Post by ClericRyan on Aug 21, 2003 10:31:10 GMT -5
My two cents are that Prestons daughter DOES NOT want to be a cleric, and it is the kind of training that the person has to be 100% committed to.
It is therefore always more likely for a young male to be more driven towards that kind of training, then a young female. I mean I played with two guns and my sister played with Barbie dolls when we were kids. Not to be cliché but that’s the way it was. I would have tried out for the monestary, but my sister would not have in a million years.
But in any event, your idea about testing really young candidates is a good one, and I imagine the same sort of selection process.
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Post by JenGe on Aug 21, 2003 10:36:12 GMT -5
OK...I think its time that I dropped my thoughts on you guys. Firearms are the great equalizer. Most small, untrained females with a pistol can take down almost any bruit force male (yes, I know there are a few exceptions). Sure the question is does she have the "killer instinct" to pull the trigger. Some do...some don't but from my somewhat unusual testosterone driven perspective...I do.
I've often contemplated the scenario of an intruder holding one of my children hostage and threatening to kill them if I don't lay down my weapon. I actually would run the risk of harming one of my children than giving up my only protection in this type of situation. My assumption is at that point we are all most likely dead anyway. An instant death is preferable to running the risk of a torturous one.
Yes...I would pull the trigger without hesitation.
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Post by Sontin-JudasFm on Aug 21, 2003 11:23:57 GMT -5
As would I...I'm not much of a runner, but as a self-defence instructor, I can fight Remember the words of the immortal Rudyard Kipling: "The female of the species is more deadly than the male!"
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Post by Coolhand on Aug 21, 2003 11:45:17 GMT -5
OK...I think its time that I dropped my thoughts on you guys. Firearms are the great equalizer. Most small, untrained females with a pistol can take down almost any bruit force male (yes, I know there are a few exceptions). Sure the question is does she have the "killer instinct" to pull the trigger. Some do...some don't but from my somewhat unusual testosterone driven perspective...I do. I've often contemplated the scenario of an intruder holding one of my children hostage and threatening to kill them if I don't lay down my weapon. I actually would run the risk of harming one of my children than giving up my only protection in this type of situation. My assumption is at that point we are all most likely dead anyway. An instant death is preferable to running the risk of a torturous one. Yes...I would pull the trigger without hesitation. Oh yeah, JenGe IS Trinity in more than just looks. I recall reading someone (It might have been a Tom Clancy novel) that police are trained never to put thier weapon down in that situation because all you get is a dead hostige and a dead cop. Apparently, what you're supposed to do is keep the guy talking until he puts down his gun or until you get a good line of site for a headshot. It's an interesting point you make about the killer instinct. I wonder if that's the deciding factor in Comabt effectivness with Martal Arts. I imagine that in a hand to hand fight, someone who is prepared to kill would have the edge over someone who just wants to stop the threat with non-lethal force. I image it might even make up for a skill-gap between the opponents. I mean, imagine if Preston had just been slashing or shooting to wound. I doubt he'd have made it as far as DuPoints office.
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Post by Dahzek on Aug 21, 2003 13:02:55 GMT -5
In some schools of anti-terrorist organisations the members of the team are actually trained to take down any female terrorists first. It is said (based on research appearantly), that an armed woman generally is not as prone to hesitation as a male counterpart.
Peace
Dahzek
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Post by Trinity on Aug 21, 2003 13:38:43 GMT -5
No apologies necessary We're family and knowledge shared and spread by word of mouth or letter is considered flattery in my book ;D Cool! Thanks, Cleric! ;D
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