Female Clerics - where are they?

[cleric25]

i say male or female, trained properly can be deadly. and its not just the chinese and the japanese culture ClericRyan look at the Vikings and the Celts. The women fought along side men in most battles cause they kicked that much ass. my basic view is if you have the trainin, the means to use it and actually forced to use it does not matter male or female or how strong someone is, the one with the experince and the wisdom to use it wins

[dsolidsnake]

Dude that is very true. I think that if a man was trained better than a certain individual woman he would beat her. But if a woman was trained better than that man she would obviously wipe the floor with him. We did mention this in one of the forums and we believe that they do have female clerics. Why they did not show any? I have no idea but I think to explain them now would require at least an EQ comic series cause I don't want an EQ2 movie.

[dsolidsnake]

I remember seeing some drawings before I moved and they are awsome. But I would like to see some live still shots of real cleric women.

[frivolity]

Well, you might just get some soon. I just finished making my Cleric coat. Just need to have some piccies taken of me in it. I won't really be GunKata-ing it. But I can pose a bit. Maybe.

[dsolidsnake]

Frivolity If you can pose for the site in that uniform we would be very happy. Mostly me.

[Witcher Wolf]

frivolity said:

Well, you might just get some soon. I just finished making my Cleric coat. Just need to have some piccies taken of me in it. I won't really be GunKata-ing it. But I can pose a bit. Maybe.

Cool, perhaps when I get some spare cash I might poke you to see if you could create the Church of Progression coat

[frivolity]

clericwolf said:

frivolity said:

Well, you might just get some soon. I just finished making my Cleric coat. Just need to have some piccies taken of me in it. I won't really be GunKata-ing it. But I can pose a bit. Maybe.

Cool, perhaps when I get some spare cash I might poke you to see if you could create the Church of Progression coat

WOW! I am flattered, Wolf. ;D I'm not very skilled at this kinda thing. This is the first time I've tackled anything like this.

[Witcher Wolf]

If your skills with costuming get as good as your skills with PS, then it would rock the socks of the world!

[frivolity]

(((HUGGSES))) Now I've finished the damn thing, I can catch up with the fanfic again. ;D

[Witcher Wolf]

I'd certainly like to see what you and your mom could come up with regarding to Kalon or Maxis' coat -- be a nice little thing to launch the book with as well *grins widely*

And Kalon will be very pleased to hear you're catching up with the fics.

On the topic of female clerics...well...there's something I wanted to do for a while, which is return to my roots with a House of Cards and a female Grammaton Cleric once again.

I also need to write more of Ashes II *meeples*

[Witcher Wolf]

LOL!

You need to practise Prozium Kata.

[frivolity]

*furtively titters behind hand while pointing at the shameless SO*



I can see I shall have to add you to the spontaneously combusted SO pic. Are you on the CB board? ;D

[Aedh]

And while I'm going about asking what the fudge things are, what the fudge is *meeples*?

[Witcher Wolf]

Off Topic:

It's one of those urban jargon words that has grown into use across the planet upon the advent of the internet. Meeples is a form of meep, which originally began life as the sound made by the Roadrunner when he 'got one over' on Wil'E'Coyote.

[Witcher Wolf]

You're welcome.

I always wanted to re-write House of Cards, it was written quite a while ago. I might do so yet.

[Gothicgds]

wtf said:

As the only little girl in second grade with a Star Wars lunchkit, I'd like throw in some observations here. I think it depends on the parents, and the extended family. Family tends to give gender oriented toys to kids, which push the idea. There is a sort of unconscious support to a girl to play with dolls and boys to play with cars.

I'm so glad you pointed this out! I think I might have turned out differently if I had been pushed into being more "ladylike" as a small child, but thankfully I was allowed to do pretty much what I pleased. Whether I wanted a Barbie or a Matchbox car made no difference to my family, and I was encouraged to run and play outside. So now that I'm grown, I have no use for the idea that women can't or don't do certain things because just because they're female. It just amuses me when I get startled reactions from people because I'm tougher than I look.

I think many people fail to take into account the fact that society tends to push certain gender roles, to the point that families often unconsciously reinforce them by applying different standards to girls than to boys. For example, guys are encouraged to become athletes, and receive validation when they do so. However, girls get more positive attention when they "look good", meaning, conform to society's standards for women.

And I dunno if anybody's noticed, but right now society's standard for women is super-skinniness, which does not lend itself to athleticism. Kinda hard to play a good game of soccer when you're crash-dieting to fit into a size 0 dress.

Of course, none of this means women cannot be strong and athletic. It just means that while male athletes are doing what's expected of them, a female athlete has to be a bit of a rebel to want such "unfeminine" pursuits. (Please note the quotes there- I think the "feminine" and "masculine" ideals are pure meaningless conceit. Doing things outside the gender role placed on you is not going to make you spontaneously change gender. )

In a nutshell, you can find female athletes, and very good ones, but they're fewer than the males, because women aren't encouraged to be good athletes the way men are. Filmmakers have to make an effort to find female athletes, and Wimmer probably didn't have the time to look, which is probably why there were no female clerics shown in the movie.

Biologically, there's no reason women couldn't be clerics. Men may have greater upper body strength, but women have greater lower body strength, flexibility, speed, and stamina. If they're trained from childhood, most women would be ideally suited for a martial art involving firearms.

One last thing: that old view of cavemen going out to hunt while the women stayed back and tended the kids? It's total crap. In hunter/gatherer societies, everyone who was physically able had to help find food. It was the old who stayed behind and watched the kids, while the younger and fitter members of the tribe went out to hunt and gather. The idea of the females staying home with the children didn't come into play until after the agricultural revolution. All of which goes to prove that it's culture, not biology, that deters women from being good athletes.

[clericaequitas]

Well, my immediate thought is that (and no offense is intended by this) they aren't Clerics due to two factors - generally, females have lower violent tendencies than males (which would be a negative impact for a Cleric) and less emotional control (a negative impact is Libria period, especially in a Clerical position). That, and the society is a patriarchal one and thus is quite possibly male-biased by nature of leadership.

[marphlets]

I saw this thread sitting way back here and just had to drop my ten cents.

I had this idea in an EQ fic I'm writting, that the monastary may be like several boarding and prep schools here in the states where females are normally not allowed, but when certain young woman or girls with exceptional skill apply, they can be allowed by special appointment from the headmaster.

So the female clerics will have to have passed some kind of aptitude test and have come to the attention of DuPont - therefore there would probably only be a very few of them.

My apologies if this is repeating an already voiced opinion.

[Aedh]

In my fictive EQ world, females are not found in the normal ranks of Clerics like Preston and Partridge who go out on patrol ... remembering Kurt Wimmer's statement that Librian society is still undergoing evolution away from the old order and toward Father's ideas.

Where they are found is in three places, principally--first, in administrative work in the Monastery and outlying posts of the Clerical regime.

Second, they are found in far-flung areas of the Nethers, where personnel are in short supply, and where sense-offence doesn't necessarily take the organised and well-armed form that you see in the City itself. In such areas, while trained Clerics who can employ all the skills of a Cleric if need be, they are often found in staff positions in places like schools and hospitals. For example ... I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but in schools in the US, a school official known as the "Vice-Principal" is usually in charge of school discipline. In "my Libria," particularly out in the Nethers, this will almost always be a Cleric, and often a female one, functioning more or less as a Soviet Kommissar used to. Such a person would supervise the school to make sure that Father's principles are being taught and followed.

Finally, the third and most special category of female Clerics in "my Libria" are a handful of women who were members of the circle that grew up around Father in the earliest days ... when the "Tetragrammaton" was originally a youth organisation dedicated to improving the tone of society. There never were many, perhaps a dozen. By the time of "Roses For Maria," which is the latest story, chronologically, that I've shared, three or four are still alive, aged in their seventies. If I ever get "The Aion Engine" finished, that will chronicle the memories and recollections of the last one. One of these I allowed to appear in "You're In The Army Now" as Jonna. She was one of Father's closest confidants, and the woman nearest his heart. By the time she appears, around the time of the movie's action, she is just past fifty, and completing over twenty years as a chief instructor of weaponless martial arts for Monastery novices--Clerics in training. (Of course at her age and level she seldom teaches classes personally any more, leaving that to the younger instructors ... however, one would not be advised to try to snatch her purse!!) She has a lot of status, though, as one of the remaining members of Father's earliest inner circle ... again, to use the Soviet analogy, rather like an "Old Bolshevik" who survived the years of Stalin.

[Libby]

marphlets said:

I saw this thread sitting way back here and just had to drop my ten cents.

I had this idea in an EQ fic I'm writting, that the monastary may be like several boarding and prep schools here in the states where females are normally not allowed, but when certain young woman or girls with exceptional skill apply, they can be allowed by special appointment from the headmaster.

So the female clerics will have to have passed some kind of aptitude test and have come to the attention of DuPont - therefore there would probably only be a very few of them.

My apologies if this is repeating an already voiced opinion.

Hey...it's great when old threads get a revival. As I said in my PM, I don't have female Clerics in my fics...although women can reach high levels of training, ability and position...since the TG reminds me a bit of the Catholic church where women can hold high office, but can never be the ultimate - a priest.

[marphlets]

aedh said:

In my fictive EQ world, females are not found in the normal ranks of Clerics like Preston and Partridge who go out on patrol ... remembering Kurt Wimmer's statement that Librian society is still undergoing evolution away from the old order and toward Father's ideas.

Where they are found is in three places, principally--first, in administrative work in the Monastery and outlying posts of the Clerical regime.

Second, they are found in far-flung areas of the Nethers, where personnel are in short supply, and where sense-offence doesn't necessarily take the organised and well-armed form that you see in the City itself. In such areas, while trained Clerics who can employ all the skills of a Cleric if need be, they are often found in staff positions in places like schools and hospitals. For example ... I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but in schools in the US, a school official known as the "Vice-Principal" is usually in charge of school discipline. In "my Libria," particularly out in the Nethers, this will almost always be a Cleric, and often a female one, functioning more or less as a Soviet Kommissar used to. Such a person would supervise the school to make sure that Father's principles are being taught and followed.

Finally, the third and most special category of female Clerics in "my Libria" are a handful of women who were members of the circle that grew up around Father in the earliest days ... when the "Tetragrammaton" was originally a youth organisation dedicated to improving the tone of society. There never were many, perhaps a dozen. By the time of "Roses For Maria," which is the latest story, chronologically, that I've shared, three or four are still alive, aged in their seventies. If I ever get "The Aion Engine" finished, that will chronicle the memories and recollections of the last one. One of these I allowed to appear in "You're In The Army Now" as Jonna. She was one of Father's closest confidants, and the woman nearest his heart. By the time she appears, around the time of the movie's action, she is just past fifty, and completing over twenty years as a chief instructor of weaponless martial arts for Monastery novices--Clerics in training. (Of course at her age and level she seldom teaches classes personally any more, leaving that to the younger instructors ... however, one would not be advised to try to snatch her purse!!) She has a lot of status, though, as one of the remaining members of Father's earliest inner circle ... again, to use the Soviet analogy, rather like an "Old Bolshevik" who survived the years of Stalin.

I like your "Jonna." She sounds like a real meaty character.

This is a cross post from the pm I sent Libby on females as clerics:

"I chose to base the "church" part of my (EQ)uni on the Church of England rather than the Catholic Church. Many of their traditions and rament are very similar, but they do allow the occasional woman to enter the ranks of priest, and they allow their priests to marry, the later lining up with what we see in the movie.

I really wanted to explore what a woman would do in the world of a Grammaton cleric. She's Preston's counterpart. My unofficial matra for this fic is "What Would Shandy(my female cleric) Do?"

[Witcher Wolf]

Since 'Ashes' is set post-film I experimented with various extrapolated ideas involving the New Grammaton. Tara being one of the first to take the position of Cleric since the fall of Father. Then of course there was House of Cards where I experimented with the effects of Prozium and the vestiges of a Cleric program for women.

Good to see this thread sparking back up with something other than the tired old: females can't be Clerics arguments that we used to get back in the day

[Libby]

clericwolf said:

Good to see this thread sparking back up with something other than the tired old: females can't be Clerics arguments that we used to get back in the day

True...

I still think it would be a difficult transition and problematic for women to be accepted immediately as Clerics...look at the problems faced by the C of E. However, as Libria finds her equilibrium ;D, they would prove to be more than a match for their male counterparts...especially in the intuitive arts! And it makes for good fics!

edit: since I haven't completely finished editing Treading on Dreams yet (RL gets in the way!) I might very well have a bit of a volteface (given Free Libria is trying to be democratic) and spice things up a bit!

[Witcher Wolf]

*nods* I definitly think it would be a long hard road in the beginning. It really depends how you take the events after the movie, with Ashes it was easier since most of Father's old regime had been burned down (hence the name)

Edit: Now I really need to get off my ass and write Ashes II again...since I've finished 822 pages for the one book.

[Libby]

clericwolf said:

Edit: Now I really need to get off my ass and write Ashes II again...since I've finished 822 pages for the one book.

*chants* More Sam! More Sam!

[Witcher Wolf]

Ah...yes...Cross' story *grin*

There's quite a bit to come

Cross' story, more webcomic...a few other things.

[marphlets]

libby said:

clericwolf said:

Good to see this thread sparking back up with something other than the tired old: females can't be Clerics arguments that we used to get back in the day

True...

I still think it would be a difficult transition and problematic for women to be accepted immediately as Clerics...look at the problems faced by the C of E. However, as Libria finds her equilibrium ;D, they would prove to be more than a match for their male counterparts...especially in the intuitive arts! And it makes for good fics!

edit: since I haven't completely finished editing Treading on Dreams yet (RL gets in the way!) I might very well have a bit of a volteface (given Free Libria is trying to be democratic) and spice things up a bit!

I don't know, on the one hand I can see the obvious obstacles to a female in a (former) patriarchal martial state, but I also see the nature of the Tetragrammaton leadership. They're users, as we see in their use of Brandt, Mary, Preston, Partridge, etc. They don't seem to mind about the nature of their tool, as long as it's ultimately the most effective and efficient tool. With them the end justifies the means.

On the same token, I can also see these men taking the "men's club" high road. "We have these manners we trust, and women interfere in that comfort zone."

So I guess it comes down to the writer, as many have already said here. From the little bit of the stories here that I've been able to read, I see that not only does EQ have great fanfiction writers on site, but that every writer has a diffierent and compelling opinion on every aspect of "old" Libria and free Libria.

[Witcher Wolf]

That's one of the reasons that I actually wrote some fiction in the EQUniverse. Normally I steer clear of writing in someone elses' sandbox, my work doesn't often gel well with doing that. I've had to turn down assignments and projects from various companies since I find it hard to work in the universe someone else has already created.

Ashes was the first stab I ever took at writing a proper fan fiction for anything really.

I'm glad I did. I would never have met all the wonderful people I did through that story or even this site. So yes, it's definitely up to the writer and their vision of EQ. I love them all