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Post by Rymel on Feb 6, 2005 22:56:13 GMT -5
hey man, welcome. can't say you came at the best time though. we could always use another (constructive) member but given the recent track record trying to come back, it doesn't seem like it'll get anywhere anymore. to be honest, since most of my personal development is mentally, and no one else has really understood what i've meant to date, i can't really say whether or not a martial arts background is even necessary anymore. it just seems to inhibit progress. but hey, i'll give it a shot again, but in personal emails first. email me and we'll see where it goes.
oh and one last thing - actually, united will never happen here, division can only make us stronger. who and how many get stronger are other issues.
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Post by Achilles on Feb 7, 2005 9:12:30 GMT -5
right on man, the more the merrier, answers are forged thru conflict. let the gears of progress turn, and be greased with the blood of those who were not fit to survive.
im or email me gunman.
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ebime
Resistance Member
"Everybody dies, but only a few ever truely live!"
Posts: 25
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Post by ebime on Apr 14, 2005 13:53:43 GMT -5
I would also be interested in working on the gun kata project. I lay what experience I have which you can find useful, at your feet. Let me know what's needed to take this further.
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Post by Teeco on Jul 17, 2005 20:03:32 GMT -5
This may have been pointed out already, but gun kata (according to the movie) uses many specific positions to achieve maximum effectiveness.
I'm not sure how many people here take martial arts; I used to take Hapkido which is very similar to Aikido, except it combines other elements from other martial arts as well.
Anybody here who is familiar with Aikido, or any other martial art for that matter, may understand what I'm talking about. (Hapkido is a grappling martial art btw)
The main problem with your development of gun kata is that you're looking to make a list of specific manuvers. While taking Hapkido, I was told that, though I was being taught specific manuvers, in doing this I would learn how a person's body moved, and eventually would be able to determine how to effectively dispatch an opponent even if none of the specific manuvers I learned applied in those certain circumstances.
In short: I would learn the underlying concepts and eventually would be able to improvise.
Unless I'm much mistaken, gun fights are rarely predictable, and if you want to really make a form of gun kata then you should think of the underlying concepts first and branch off from there. My suggestion is that you gather some friends, set up mock fights with perhaps paintball guns, and use the old but effective method of trial-and-error to teach yourself.
By doing so, you can make the situation relatively real, and any hollywood implausability would be abolished.
This may have already been mentioned. I'm open for opinions and constructive criticism. I know it probably makes things more difficult, but if you're serious about this then you'll at least keep these things in mind.
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Xaio
Resistance Member
Mood is for cattle, or for making love; not for fighting
Posts: 71
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Post by Xaio on Aug 9, 2005 2:10:09 GMT -5
Hey All. Here's my take on the Gun Kata 'issue': Teeco (and others) is/are, in many ways, right. A list of specific moves, or kata based soley off existing martial arts would be inherently inhibited and limited. You *do* need to create something completely new and original. One thing about EQ's brand of Gun Kata in particular which didn't fit; Preston's lack of movement. Really, he didn't move out of the way of any return fire, 99% of the time he was moving on straight lines. The way I see gun kata, legs and mobility would perhaps be even more important than arms – to carry you in unpredictable lines o f movement to confuse opponents. **Then** when you've mastered that, you can start using your arms and aiming. I'd imagine gun kata would be very different if it wasn't also trying to take you out of the way of return fire... but, this idea for it is assuming you **are** trying to avoid being shot (funny thing that...) So. First off: “Whilst simultaneously moving the cleric from the statistically predictable lines of return fire” Ok. Rule number 1 in pretty much any fight: you don't stay static, and still. Therefore, you move. Now, someone (apologies, I can't remember who) pointed out a helpful thing called aiming To a degree, they're right – 'gun kata' wouldn't necessarily work all the time, in terms of moving the practioner from the lines of return fire. But consider how aiming works: First off, assuming 1 thing: the gun kata practioner **isn't staying still**. You stay still, and you're an easy target and dead. So, we can assume that gun kata would have to include significant movement in unpredictable directions, certainly more than is shown or used in 'Equilibrium'. When you aim at a moving target, you don't aim *at* the target. You aim at where you think the target is going to move to. And, if someone is moving from A, to B, in a relatively straight line, then you're going to aim ahead of them along the path to B. Therefore, if that same someone were to then change direction to C instead, then, when you adjust to that, to D, it would be a lot harder to aim. Essentially, it would be taking the basics of dodging and moving in an unpredictable fashion and studying, consolidating and improving them. I'd imagine that, following that premise, movement and dodging would be the basis for everything. You'd need to study the way the body works, and develop quick, effective, and deceptive ways of changing the flow of movement from one direction to another, to throw aim off, whilst still providing the opportunity for you to fire back. So, I guess there **could** be specific movements developed, and developed into kata's... but not quite in the way of EQ. Ok, so you're mobile, moving around a lot, and changing direction. Next, I'd say that it would probably want to incorporate a fair bit of stuff low to the ground – movement whilst crouching, doubled over, rolls, dives etc. Especially as the recoil of a gun tends to bring the bullets, and aim, **up**. Staying low to the ground is commonsense. So, to recap: At the moment, you're moving low to the ground, changing direction often in opposite ways of your body's flow, crouching and rolling a fair bit. You sometimes do raise your centre of gravity, so you're not low to the ground, for quicker movement. You're also going through a series of evasive jumps and manouvers, always trying to be as compact and small a target as possible, whether low or high. Now, assuming you're following the above scenario, then your arms are going to have to be moving completely independently of your body. The above scenario is designed to throw off an opponents aim, but its also going to throw off yours. You'd need to develop your... I can't think of a precise word, but your 'aim' and arm as it were, to remain steady and pointing in a single direction whilst your were going through various evasive manouvers. Perhaps a useful exercise would be to attack a piece of string to the end of your weapon, and then try going through the rolls and evasive manouvers already mentioned, which would keep the barell pointing at the same point in space. That, I would imagine, would generally be the basis. Once you'd mastered that, there's plenty more to branch out to; using cover, quick and effective reloading, using weapons other than pistols, or using otherweapons with pistols (katana and gun perhaps ). Now, the distribution of opponents in a gun-fight **may** be a geometrically predictable statistic; I don't know, and I have no real way to find out. However, you can maximise firing efficiency without that. First off, it depends on your target: Single Opponent: Ok, so you've got a single opponent, and you've got say two pistols (I'd imagine two pistols would be the basis of this style of gun-kata, along with single pistol). You're rolling, jumping, twisting, and dodging, and generally making their attempts to aim hell. Now, your placement of your weapons in aiming is going to want (to “maximise efficiency”) to be fairly specific and accurate. You want both weapons at your opponent, but on diverging lines of fire, eg. -One high, one low -One left, one right -One stationary, the other forcing the opponent to dodge into the line of fire of the stationary. The idea is to cover all options. So, if they're fairly static, aim high and low, try and take out their legs even if you don't hit their head, and be sure to hit them if they duck. Probably be particularly effective if you fire with the high gun first, so they duck, then fire a splitsecond later with the low one. One left, one right; fairly simple. Think, actually, EQ – Preston's battle with the guards in the hallway. Remember that shot from below of his crossed wrists, and the two guns firing on automatic in a sweeping arc? Well, similar to that. One firing left, one firing right, and with their arcs of fire converging on the person, but also covering the directions they could dodge in. One stationary, other forcing the opponent to doge into it: Simple trick. Fire one (presumably on automatic – obviously I'm thinking something like a Glock pistol here, which has an automatic option) in a relatively straight line, probably roughly waist high, or thigh height, then fire the other (also on automatic) in an arc moving round towards the first, with the opponent between them – moving them closer to the stationary one, and possibly moving the stationary one towards them at the last moment. Multiple Opponents: This is a bit more tricky. It depends, really, on how good your aim is (obviously, you'd want to spend a hell of a lot of time aiming, and on the target range, and then moving etc). If your'e not so good at aiming, then use the same tactics as on the single opponent, but repeat, and try and stay away from the lines of fire of the other opponents. If your aim is better, ideally you'd move your arms independently, probably firing again around stomach/lower stomach/even thigh heigh (I'm guessing (I should add I haven't actually been in a real gun fight, so some of this might be al ittle off) that that would be one of the best spots to aim, seeing as though anyone crouching brings their heads/necks/torso into your arc of fire, the recoil of your own gun if forced up will still take people down, and a shot in the stomach/lower stomach area will disable long enough to hit them elsewhere, and gain yourself a breathing room. You'd probably also want, for best results, to fire on automatic still, in an arc like way, presenting a spray of bullets (controlled, and not a big arc – but an arc nonetheless) to make sure you get them. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Apologies if its disjointed, written over several intervals. It'd take a while to do, but you could actually develop specific movements, particularly for changing directions, and good evasive techniques/combos. And, if you were so inclined, you could actually incorporate them into katas I guess. Probably it'd be better to practice them as individual techniques first. Then slowly you could incorporate aiming and firing. I'm sorry if a lot of this has been basic, but the way I see it, you'd need to start from basics. Please give your thoughts, and I'm happy to talk over PM/Email/MSN.
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ebime
Resistance Member
"Everybody dies, but only a few ever truely live!"
Posts: 25
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Post by ebime on Sept 13, 2005 15:50:30 GMT -5
Xaio....I see a lot of good points in your post. The way you described the dodge movements, it brought to mind another movie :"The art of war" starring Wesley Snipes. In the final fight with Michael Biehn, he moves/dodges in quite the same way you are describing, and I remember thinking it was a great idea when I first saw it. You may be on to something there Xaio!
I'll try something along what you mentionned and report back when I can (I'm getting married in a few weeks...).
Another idea I had when I saw the fight with the other high cleric at the end of EQ (I forget his name at the moment, sorry!), I think the way they are fighting looks a lot like Arnis/Escrima/Kali. Ideas about that anyone?
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DemonEyedGunman
Resistance Member
I see with the eyes of a hunter, no one can escape. I'm a devil of a gunman, for you it is too late.
Posts: 16
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Post by DemonEyedGunman on Oct 18, 2005 12:44:35 GMT -5
Xaio and ebime it seems that you guys might have some good things to offer the development. Only problem is your timing. As it stands alot of the original "crew" as it were, have not been active in a long time that I have noticed. Also, even when they were still active the development switched to via direct email until we got something going again. I hope that I am wrong and that things will pick up again, but the way it seems now is that we lost a good portion of the original contributors/ team.
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Oct 18, 2005 15:21:46 GMT -5
I'd personally love to see Rymel back.
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ebime
Resistance Member
"Everybody dies, but only a few ever truely live!"
Posts: 25
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Post by ebime on Oct 20, 2005 14:34:41 GMT -5
Demoneyedgunman...the way I see it, if we keep working at this and do make it happen, it's their loss. If any of them happen by and share their informations with us, it would keep us from re-inventing the wheel though...
In any way, the principle diference I would see which is needed is to be fluid in our movements as opposed to the "karate-style" kata presented in the movie. If you stop every second do to a move/pose, it is wayyy too dangerous to get hit/predicted. If you keep moving all the time, but it a fluid manner, it will not only make aiming Hell for the opposition, it would be easier on your body. Your taijutsu (body movement) as got to be fluid and effortless. It was nice seeing those jumps and all in the movie, but imagine trying to move like that non-stop for 30 seconds! You'd be out of breath and thus, vulnerable and inneficient.
I'll be out for a short while, but I'll try to check the gunfights in EQ and "Art of war" before coming back in here, it may give us a few ideas...
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Post by PasserBy on Nov 7, 2005 6:38:28 GMT -5
Guys where were you when the team was still together? Like the last few posts from ebime and Xiao. Maybe you can do your own gig ebime, but it's unlikely. Rymel and trustkill tried for a long time to make things work and have ppl work together, but it wasn't meant to be. Hope you have a better run.
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ebime
Resistance Member
"Everybody dies, but only a few ever truely live!"
Posts: 25
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Post by ebime on Nov 8, 2005 13:33:13 GMT -5
Passerby...Thanks for the good words, adn I'll reply with this ":The people who know the greatest success have known the greatest failures!" So, let's say I stay positive about all this!
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Post by preston1580 on Nov 23, 2005 20:15:15 GMT -5
hey'guys, I know I'm new here, but I'd like to help. I've been studying the chinese martial arts for many years and I've noticed that some of the footwork that preston uses in the movie seems very similar to bagua. I'll do what I can to help out, if you guys(and girls) don't mind.
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ebime
Resistance Member
"Everybody dies, but only a few ever truely live!"
Posts: 25
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Post by ebime on Dec 1, 2005 11:15:19 GMT -5
Preston1580...your help is more than welcome. Send me a PM with your e-mail in it and we'll get in touch! Welcome aboard!
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Post by preston1580 on Dec 2, 2005 1:19:32 GMT -5
Thanks.
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Post by dark609 on Dec 23, 2005 8:18:41 GMT -5
hey ppl. Wow, i watched the end of equilibrium's end one day and i just loved it...then i waited 7 months looking all over tha place to find tha damm dvd!!! I finally found it tho!!! anyways this forum is awsome, i've been looking for sumething like this to talk about tha movie, cause i fricken love it!! lmao...anyways...i couldnM't find the first gun kata developmnent so i'll try to fit in tha group lol....anyways its really nice to find out that there are actually other ppl like me who really like tha movie and especially tha martial art in it! anyways, do u guys know if theres a game coming out or if theres already a game out??
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 23, 2005 9:16:17 GMT -5
Drop into the Hall of Mirrors Mod forum, a few forums down
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Post by JenGe on Dec 23, 2005 14:38:28 GMT -5
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homyck
Sense Offender
Run ! Die Tired...
Posts: 7
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Post by homyck on Dec 23, 2005 15:25:04 GMT -5
It was nice seeing those jumps and all in the movie, but imagine trying to move like that non-stop for 30 seconds! You'd be out of breath and thus, vulnerable and inefficient. Not true ;-) After a few years of constant training you can jump around like that for over 10 to 15 minutes. After you'd be out of breath, everyone else would be .. like , you know ... DEAD ;-) BTW - those moves from the film look like taken from a dozen of kung-fu styles. Been studying kung-fu for quite some time now. And when they're showing the gun kata it all looks like a low-end version of "The dance of a tiger in a hunt" from Hu Lung Pai ( The Dragon and Black Tiger ) style. In "The dance... etc." it was more jumpy, but the hand moves were quite the same. Footwork changed A LOT... If anyone has some questions about - PW/msn me. -HMCK
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Post by InVitro on Jan 22, 2006 14:40:04 GMT -5
i'm sure i'm not the only one bringing this up, so forgive me, but anyone that has ever fired a real gun will tell you that Gun-Kata is nigh on impossible due to the recoil most firearms produce when fired. seriously, go to a firing range and let out a few rounds, now imagine the kind of kick the guns give you, and apply that to a bended wrist. The result would be quite a few fractures.
i think gun-kata is cool as hell, and that in a futuristic enviroment with recoil free weapons it would definetely work, but in the real world? firing a 9-mm beretta with crossed arms and bended wrists?... I think i'll pass.
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jan 24, 2006 6:45:15 GMT -5
An interesting point there: how much recoil does a Cleric sidearm actually have, are they truly recoiless or is there some?
*stir-stir-stir*
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ebime
Resistance Member
"Everybody dies, but only a few ever truely live!"
Posts: 25
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Post by ebime on Apr 16, 2006 1:29:18 GMT -5
Looks like there are big compensators on the tip of the clerics' guns, so maybe there's something there. And as far as bent wrist, who ever said we need to do things exactly like in the movie? Your point is well noted and appreciated though!
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Post by angrypsycho on Apr 22, 2006 11:21:00 GMT -5
Pardon me, but any of you fellas mind creating sort of a compilation post that sums up the progress you guys made on this whole GUn kata thing so that everybody can see where you guys are without having to read the entire thread?
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ipullu
Sense Offender
Posts: 1
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Post by ipullu on Apr 30, 2006 2:26:49 GMT -5
hi guys im kinda new to this..postin n stuff..n also new to GUN kata...but ever since i saw the movie..i am totally hooked on to it...i see gunkata 24/7...its the most awesome martial art thing ever...wish there was some way for me to learn it actually... well guys keep developin it further...i m readin everyword on this page devotedly...
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Post by cleric25 on Aug 6, 2006 18:25:06 GMT -5
id love to get in on this. i studied martial arts serious for 10yrs and still on my own when i have the free time. i see plenty of different styles grouped into the gunkata. this is definatelyt a trial and error kind of thing. ill get to work on this my next day off.
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recoil
Sense Offender
Posts: 1
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Post by recoil on Sept 29, 2006 16:00:29 GMT -5
Greetings Everyone, I stumbled across this site today while doing a Google search for a friend who had never seen Equilibrium. As a guy who has trained in both the martial arts and in combat arms for a good many years, I have a natural interest in the "Gun Kata." So naturally, this site caught my attention in a hurry. I am one of those people who has the unfortunate distinction of actually having used firearms, including pistols, against another human. So with my mindset in your own minds, I would like to offer some insight as to why you may be having difficulties getting your collective Gun Kata project off the ground. The most significant and damaging issue I see is the lack of experience with firearms on many peoples' parts. Granted, I didn't read through this entire thread, beginning to end, so there may be a few of you who are adept with the manual of arms for certain weapons. Regardless, I get the overwhelming feeling that many have either never fired a pistol or have only done so infrequently and then only for brief and purely recreational purposes. Now before anyone gets their feathers in a ruffle, please understand that I'm not condescending at all. My objective in saying this is because an intimate knowledge and extensive experience with firearms is nothing short of necessity when speaking of and designing a unique defensive/offensive program for a weapon that can permanently mame or kill you if you disrespect it for only a moment. Put another way, bruises from a flubbed nunchaku technique go away; gun shot wounds are forever. With this further in mind, I submit that you need to decide if your Gun Kata is one of two things (it cannot be both!): * A purely non-defensive routine/art for the sake of excercise, entertainment and ego (admit it, looking cool is important! ) * An actual martial routine/art for the sake of defense Once you have firmly decided which of these your Gun Kata will be, the rest is easy...Especially if you choose the first option. If you do choose the first option, your recourse is simple: buy a couple air pistols from Wal-Mart (you can get Beretta look-alikes), along with an Equilibrium DVD and a DVD player with a good slow motion function. Once this equipment is acquired, simply recreate the action scenes from the movie. Each and every one of you reading this thread can do this without any assistance whatsoever from anyone else here. Perhaps this is the underlying nature of this movement's failure to produce an actual Gun Kata: because the work has already been done on screen, and everyone is waiting for someone else to do the leg work and post still photographs of each seperate movement of each fight scene. Or perhaps some folks are genuinely interested in a real combative art, but no one has yet to come forward with facts of shooting. If some of you are interested in real gun craft, you should look elsewhere for your firearms training, then return here to revisit the Gun Kata concept. If you elect to follow the path of a real gunfighter, the very, very first thing you need to do is buy a real gun of your very own and take a basic safety and handling course. This is essential and should not be over-looked! And don't rely on a friend who has a gun to teach you because unfortunately, the majority of gun owners aren't very adept at proper safety and shooting techniques themselves (this isn't a dis against guns; guns are perfectly safe on their own...It's the person holding them that usually isn't!). So seek out professional instruction, like that which is given by the NRA, your local gun club or law enforcement agency (most police departments are in fact very pro-civilian gun ownership, despite what certain liberal groups claim). Once, and only once you can safey handle your firearm, you should then enroll in professional combat arms instruction. Places to look at are Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Front Sight, Valhalla, Blackwater, Triple Canopy, Defensive Edge and many others. All are easily found via Google. These training institutions provide courses for all levels of shooting experience, from civilian neophyte to U.S. Army Special Forces. So as your skills progress, you can seek further advanced training. Once, and only once you have achieved a high level of competence with live firearms should you even dream of developing a real Gun Kata using real guns for real defensive/tactical situations. This training and hands-on firearms experience will also give you key information which seems to be lacking here, and thus stalling your progress...Information such as the Gun Kata as represented in Equilibrium cannot possibly exist as a real-life martial technique. The information you need to create a real Gun Kata will come to you through this training. But mostly, it will show you that guns aren't just cool--they're deadly...And that developing a real Gun Kata isn't just a fun academic excercise--it's an excercise in lethality. Lethality for whom will be determined by your level of firearms training and experience. The gun can be a wonderful servant, but if disrespected, it becomes a terrible, terrible master. So please, think seriously about these points and reevaluate your goals for recreating the Gun Kata. I will happily answer any questions if you require experienced input, so please ask away. However keep in mind, that I will not allow my input to be interpreted as firearms instruction. Such things must be done in person! Thank you very much for taking the time to read this. Most respectfully, Recoil
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Airrider
Resistance Member
So then...what am I thinking?
Posts: 69
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Post by Airrider on Sept 30, 2006 8:51:42 GMT -5
I have a bit of a thought... ...anybody think that different branches and styles of gun kata might eventually surface...? You know, like, for different guns and such.
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Zen
Resistance Member
Posts: 39
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Post by Zen on Oct 29, 2006 13:11:49 GMT -5
thats a idea
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Post by Aedh on Oct 29, 2006 20:56:51 GMT -5
I've already worked on that ... in "Roses For Maria" you will see an alternate version for automatic carbines/long weapons .... not fully developed, but the germ of one ...
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Cleric Furion
Resistance Member
"Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams...
Posts: 33
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Post by Cleric Furion on Feb 26, 2007 9:29:12 GMT -5
hey i just found this forum today and registered, i see the last post was...... a long time ago but i just loved the equilibrium movie, ive watched the entire movie start to finish 21 times, i know the words and actions backwards...but i spose after such a long ago reply this forum is no longer active ?!?!?! which is a great pitty i really loved the gazillion posts i had to read before i finally read this last one posted by Aedh but GAWSH just wanted to pay credit to the movie designers and EVERY SINGLE DEVELOPER of this forum it was extremely entertaining and just awesome, there is no other words for it
Cleric171
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Cleric Furion
Resistance Member
"Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams...
Posts: 33
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Post by Cleric Furion on Feb 26, 2007 10:12:52 GMT -5
hey I dont thnk my last post registered for all you peeps to see unfortunately basically what it said was i only found this forum today and registered and i truely loved the movie equilibrium ive watched it start to finish 21 times, the actors were SUPURB and the devs of these forums are absoulutely great!!!! it took me hours of solid reading to cover the gazillions of posts up til now (the 7th page) now to get down to some business - first things first - IS THIS FORUM STILL ACTIVE if so i was wondering, that this is a good place to post what im going to say next because you all know tons and tons about the movie equilibrium, why not bring out an actual ONLINE rollplaying equilibrium game ? ROLLPLAYING GAME??? there are no actual equi games out there ive played the hall of birrors MP2 mod which was brilliant but i would love an mmorpg (massive multiplayer online roll playing game) of equilibrium to come out, where when u start u can choose to be resistance or librian and u start as a citizen, and rank your self up for the librians the highest rank can be first class cleric of the tentagrammaton or what ever... and so forth for the resistance aswell, obviously a mmorpg shud be quite hard by that i mean, not easy at all to reach cleric level, and u can add all kinds of aawesome twists into it like as soon as a player reached grammaton cleric level they are assigned 2 "cleric guns" which is the modified beretta. now this is just a basic over view of the game and how it would work of course the devs of it will take it into much bigger detail of how it works and what items u can get when and stuff. it would be cool for something to happen, and please dont bite my head off for posting this here, its jsut i thought that all you forum devs of this forum are of much higher authority than me and maybe have a connection with some gaming companies with skilled developers or can even contact the gaming companies admins and talk to them about it, it could be a fortune making investment, and dont worry i dont want any credit for the idea of the new game or anything i am willing to give it away by all means as long as a gaming company is willing to make it im very new here just registered today because im passionate about that move and equilibrium. so godbless to all i hope u manage to do something and contact some people regarding this post thanks for giving me the opportunity to post here and i tend to do alot more so in the future IS THIS FORUM STILL ACTIVE BTW?!?! hhehehehhehe i hope it is, if not come on fevs of the forum get back here and lets get it on the road again thanks so much Cleric Furion satara@webmail.co.za
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