|
Post by Kengou on Jul 8, 2004 19:02:27 GMT -5
Check out the thread about "the answer to gun kata" posted by me. It could definately help out the guys developing gun kata. I like what you guys have done, however I don't think you're going at it quite right. Check my thread for more info.
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jul 25, 2004 21:25:51 GMT -5
damn, i didn't think people would start EMAILING me about this thread actually i didn't even know about that post, and with all due respect who said you had to fire a gun to learn to use one effectively? or fire one with the intent to kill to learn to do so more efficiently? aside from that i don't think there's such thing as a purely defensive martial art, because to defend yourself you have to exert force upon your opponent anyway, which all you pacifists may argue, but when all the chips are down you're still on the offensive. doesn't anyone remember the saying the best offense is defense? protecting yourself means kicking the other guy's ass, passively or aggressively. i don't think it gets any simpler than that, and passively can be anything. it's not that i got scared off, or whatever else...i got lazy, pure and simple. also finals started gettin to me and i slacked off on all my web-based activities for a good while. now i'd like to start up again but don't know where to begin ^_^; in terms of progress not much has been made for me, although i've come to some understandings in terms of body mechanics. but not many. lastly...what happened to esben and trustkill?
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jul 30, 2004 11:23:23 GMT -5
::waves from hiding spot in trees, pulls down ninja mask and gives a grin::
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jul 30, 2004 11:39:25 GMT -5
im going to dive right back in here on a tangent...
-i remember some time ago C.Enemies bringing up the fact that in his tests the most effective thing was to keep moving. ive been doing a lot of research recently on iaido and tameshigiri cutting and there is some similarity there. since a katana is a single-edged weapon, the need to keep it moving at a constant rate of momentum no matter what the angle of cut is very important. bear with me here as i stretch an analogy...
likening the barrel of a pistol the the edged side of a katana, we can see the similarities in the principles we need to try to create. the samurai, when cutting, must prepare his body to pivot into the next move while the primary cut is being made to make sure that the blade comes back at the right angle and speed to properly make the next move. this sort of fluidity in the use of the weapon should perhaps be a main emphasis of our studies since being able to align the guns on the next target seamlessly and without interruption will aid in speed and efficiency. that, in my opinion, is the reason this is being attempted.
-granted, things are different since pistols fire bullets that travel outwards for rediculous distances as well as create negative forces that will change the momentum of the travelling gun arm, but on the upper hand we have it easy. it is much easier to swing around two 1.5lb guns that are 9 inches long than two japanese katanas that weigh 2.5lbs and are 38 inches long.
-oh well... im finishe for now until more cohesive things come to mind. rymel, any comments, additions, deviations?
|
|
|
Post by Kengou on Aug 7, 2004 18:25:53 GMT -5
Rymel, you say there is no such thing as a purely defensive martial art because martial arts teach you to beat up the oponent.
I agree with you, as would many people. However, there is ONE martial art that is purely defensive, and that was created because of the idea you stated.
Aikido.
Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, realised that to truly bring peace and harmony to the world you cannot hurt someone who is trying to hurt you. You cannot respond to agression with agression. It would just beget more pain and suffering to more people. Aikido teaches to intercept the attacker's force, like a punch, and to redirect it in such a way that the attacker falls off-balance onto the ground in a PAINLESS way. for instance, pulling the person's arm around fluidly so that they end up rolling across the ground, is completely painless and allows you to dissipate their attack without hurting the attacker. You can also pin the attacker if they are persistant, but with a minimum of pain and doing no damage that is permenant or severe.
Look up Aikido, and you'll find that there are no strikes, attacks, or anything that is designed to cause pain on the attacker.
|
|
|
Post by shaolinlite on Aug 9, 2004 11:40:28 GMT -5
Im afraid I must disagree that Akido is a "Martial Art". The ability to open many cans of ass-whup at once is just a happy side effect of the movement training. In this is it more akin to Tai Chi than say, Hapkido; it permits the practitioner to achieve and maintain a state of inner calm that, combined with certain gestures and poses, gives the combatant that little extra edge in a combat situation. If you can keep your wits about you everyone else is running around like a chicken with its head cut off, AND you have a plan of action, odds are yer walkin' outta that mess in one piece! This in no way implies that Akido is less than a Martial Art, I merely submit that it's similarity to a Martial Art is merely cosmetic; Under the surface, a very different situation exists. That having been said, allow me to confess that I have studied these three aforementioned disciplines at different times, and a few others as well-thier effectiveness has less to do with the technique of the style itself, and everything to do with the will of the Martial Artist who uses it. If you doubt it, I suggest you take a good long look at the first UFC (Gracie v. Severn) and ask youself how such a thing could have happened. What does this have to do with Gun Kata? Everything-the mind is the true weapon, the thing that moves the action forwards. If luck favors the prepared mind, then victory is sure to follow. Swords, guns, fists- these are props used in the choreography. Peace and Love shaolinlite
|
|
|
Post by wtf on Aug 11, 2004 10:43:40 GMT -5
Im afraid I must disagree that Akido is a "Martial Art". The ability to open many cans of ass-whup at once is just a happy side effect of the movement training. In this is it more akin to Tai Chi than say, Hapkido; it permits the practitioner to achieve and maintain a state of inner calm that, combined with certain gestures and poses, gives the combatant that little extra edge in a combat situation. If you can keep your wits about you everyone else is running around like a chicken with its head cut off, AND you have a plan of action, odds are yer walkin' outta that mess in one piece! This in no way implies that Akido is less than a Martial Art, I merely submit that it's similarity to a Martial Art is merely cosmetic; Under the surface, a very different situation exists. I'll have to disagree with you in that Aikido is a Martial Art in that it is designed to deal with opponents in combat. Even though the intention is to hopefully deal with them where they are not harmed, that is just the ideal and philosophical core...it's a long road to get there. Your description of aikido above makes it sound like we flap our arms around and we just happen throw people. There are some instructors who do push the philosophy more than the practice and choose to represent it that way. There are as many different approaches to aikido which border on some laughable "new age" types to equally hilarious "hard core budo warrior" stuff. It all depends on the instructor and students' intentions. Which is about the same in any martial art. I believe we are in agreement there as you mention that below. What are you studying currently? So everyone, should I just start a martial arts thread and stop cluttering up the Gun Kata Developement?
|
|
|
Post by shaolinlite on Aug 11, 2004 11:55:37 GMT -5
"So everyone, should I just start a martial arts thread and stop cluttering up the Gun Kata Developement?"
Not at all dude! The tragic flaw of firearms is that thier lethal capabilities can be put to use without any form of mental or physical training whatsoever. One of the reasons there is a "spiritual" side to martial arts (as opposed to fighting systems) is to instill a modicum of self control in the master martial artist thats keeps him or her from using thier seemingly superhuman abilities to thier own selfish ends. In other words, the master knows when the appropriate use of force is called for, much of it to use, and most importantly,who NOT to use it on when the moment of truth arrives. A martial art incorporating firearms would necessarily enjoy these effects, yes?
"Blah blah blah," sez you, "cause the toothpaste is already out of the tube-any fool with the price of admission can become the angel'o'death. It's just not a level playing field anymore."
Exactly right. That's why the martial artists need to up the ante. A handgun is just a 700 meter sword at the right moments...the trick is working out an effective choreography for a buttload of 700 meter moments. Playing field leveled.
So thats why I think the gun nuts and martial artist need to keep communicating here and not break into another thread-we need each other's knowledge.
I live in Thailand now, Im working out at one of the few muay thai gyms that will actually teach a westerner. It hurts. Alot. Paintball is everywhere however, so...
|
|
|
Post by shaolinlite on Aug 12, 2004 10:42:52 GMT -5
questions of a technical nature-
1. helmet cams or stationary, or both? 2. how many p.o.v. are requred for accurate measurement/ assesment? 3. what kinds of things should I be measuring/ assessing? 4. what are the circumstances for which we are choreographing this kata; where are the "targets"? 5. what are the critera for success/failure? 6. how should the results be assesed and reported?
thanks! shaolinlite
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 13, 2005 0:14:21 GMT -5
I BRING THIS THREAD BACK FROM DEATH!!!!!!
me and trustkill have decided that the heinous amounts of stupid going around in regards to gun kata development need to stop, and we feel best qualified to do so. i mean, shit, we scared jenge, trinity and a mess of others back when we had this going, we were actually GETTING SOMEWHERE with it...so here we go! keep your eyes peeled for a new and improved thread everyone! i intend to recap and renew, so hopefully you'll all come along for the ride, and provide REAL discussion. let's make this happen people!
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 13, 2005 1:00:09 GMT -5
I BRING THIS THREAD BACK FROM DEATH!!!!!! hehehhee...
|
|
|
Post by bumrush on Jan 13, 2005 4:04:03 GMT -5
i just found this message board and i really dont know about this gun kata stuff. i just watched equilibrium and wondered if gun kata was real. heres a recent gun fight video www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/january/ogrish-dot-com-ceres_police_shooting_video_cam6.wmvwarning: dont watch this video if you don't want to see poeple getting shot (there is no blood however) notice how he spots the cops but pretends not to as to lure them out into the open. before rounding the corner he shoots the gas pump making it explode, probably as a distraction incase anyone else was around the corner. i think an actual 'gun kata' would involve things like knowing angles, whats cover and whats not, movement and anticipating what the enemy is thinking/planning. but these are regular combat strategies that are already taught. i am confused as to what your ideas of gun kata are. i've read some other posts, most of them involve close quarters martial arts and being a quick shot. in a gunfight such as the one above, those werent the deciding factors at all.
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 13, 2005 16:29:12 GMT -5
gun kata is not real, the faq says it quite clearly. we're not trying to make that gun kata, because it can't exist in that form. we're just trying to make a realistic martial art. a MARTIAL ART. that means discipline. no stupid shit.
that video doesn't even come close.
while it's pretty obvious he knows they're there, i don't see any relation to gun kata in this video, or angles, or anything else. angles and all that? in the details, not a first priority in my opinion. movement and anticipation are obvious, and should be second nature. that video can't even be compared to what we're talking about, because there's zero discipline in it. he just drew them out and started firing like crazy. i barely saw that gas can thing, and it looked like an accident. i don't even think those were cops, they looked like a civilian couple. it's a police cam, but that siten ever said it was cops in the fight (if you can even call it that, i'd call it murder). it's impossible to look at gunfight footage and think "hey, gun kata", because it doesn't exist. if it did, no one would be left standing to talk about it. and let me take this time to say it right now before we get yelled at for it:
WE DO NOT CONDONE GUN VIOLENCE OF ANY SORT
that being said (god, why do i even have to SAY it?), close combat is the order of the day for a gundancer. i personally favor melee combat because what are you gonna do once the guns are empty and people are still standing? and what if it's better to not waste a bullet? i wouldn't mess with someone who could take out a few people with handguns and never firing a shot. and if i'm stupid enough to, i'd expect him to fire on me if i'm not already close enough to get MY share of the broad side of the pistol. and the quick shot is because we laugh at "statistically low chances of getting hit". hit em fast and hope they don't get a chance to fire. and if they do, keep moving and hope YOU don't get hit. cover is irrelevant in the cleric's case because, well, he'll never need it. if you've got time to look for cover you've got time to make a shot or strike.
it's not about flash, it's about efficiency. it's supposed to be deadly. but that doesn't give you any kind of license to exercise it with live fire and violence. you train to control yourself, not so you can kill people. that's just a byproduct.
|
|
|
Post by bumrush on Jan 14, 2005 0:30:24 GMT -5
"WE DO NOT CONDONE GUN VIOLENCE OF ANY SORT" why not?
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 14, 2005 0:58:43 GMT -5
because i refuse to be held responsible for someone else's fucking stupidity, that's why. if that's all you're interested in get the hell out of my forum. you came to the wrong place for that. martial arts are not an excuse for violence. wait a minute what the fuck i have to tell you WHY? get the fuck outta here ya mook!
|
|
|
Post by bumrush on Jan 14, 2005 1:49:30 GMT -5
hmm, seems like you've got some serious anger management issues going on by the looks of all those curse words. i wasn't even aware that this message board was "yours". i think my question was justifiable. a bunch of people developing a martial art involving guns just seem like the sort of people that would condone violence. i for one would not want to collaborate with someone such as yourself who very, very easily loses self control. that sort of person has no business developing a "martial art". undisciplined, unreliable, and probably fat and living with his mother.
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 14, 2005 2:09:19 GMT -5
i'm sick and tired of hearing people coming over to ask about gun kata with the sole intention of flat out violence and from your TWO posts i can't get any more info out of them than that. so if you wanted to actually take part you could've put your first post a little better. but it's pretty obvious what you want, so do us all a favor and beat it. and if you read the original thread, i started it. so nitpick all you want at my word choice of forum or thread, just do it outside of this one. just because it involves guns doesn't mean it's for violence. unless you really think ninjas are all bloodthirsty killers who rampage across the rooftops of japan, and i wouldn't be surprised if you thought the best movie was kill bill. so don't come tellin me what you think i am, you've barely been here.
|
|
|
Post by pyro on Jan 14, 2005 2:21:29 GMT -5
hmm, seems like you've got some serious anger management issues going on by the looks of all those curse words. i wasn't even aware that this message board was "yours". i think my question was justifiable. a bunch of people developing a martial art involving guns just seem like the sort of people that would condone violence. actually, this is his thread. his reason to be mad is justifiable and your questions about gunkata before reading the other pages ARENT. you know what? i wouldnt want to work with someone who bases someone's peronaility on there message board posts, but hey thats just me. before you respond in a silly manner again, make sure you read the ENTIRE thread before posting something that might get your feelings hurt. welcome back Rymel
|
|
|
Post by bumrush on Jan 14, 2005 3:30:37 GMT -5
How can you develop a kata involving guns without analyzing actual gun violence? You said so yourself “it's about efficiency. it’s supposed to be deadly.” I was merely offering some constructive criticism into the practical application of gun kata. Maybe posting a link to a violent video was rude; but I did not anticipate that people trying to develop a “deadly efficient” gun related martial art would be so quick to shun violence. If that is the case then I apologize.
But it’s not that simple. Judging from your out of control reaction I can see that the real reason you felt ‘sick and tired’ is because your simply thick headed and intolerant when it comes to people who don’t agree with you. Well, I’ve got a newsflash for you Walter Cronkite. This is the real world, not your mother’s basement. People have differing opinions.
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 14, 2005 4:03:13 GMT -5
thanks pyro, glad to see you remember me.
actually if you read the threads at all you'd know i'm the team member particularly interested in melee pistol combat, noob. no forensic analyzation required. i also never said anything about not analyzing firearms data, but that doesn't equate to violence. And though they both go hand in hand, and i did say that a firearms based martial art is meant to be deadly and efficient, by no means did i EVER say "sure dude go out and start practicing with live ammo and targets, preferably meatbags. lemme know how it goes!". i mean really.
the post of the video was appreciated, and i don't recall saying anything about it other than criticism. actually, i don't remember explicitly telling you you're stupid (the first time), either. i just responded accordingly. it looks like i answered whatever you asked me to. i also gave you the advice of not looking at any old gun shooting video and thinking of how you can analyze it in terms of gun kata, because MOST recorded gun fights that are accessible to the public are WILD FIGHTING. i've yet to see one that's calculated and planned, so how could you analyze them in the name of gun kata? looks to me like you just like seeing people get shot up.
we don't totally abhor violence here, we just don't like pointless violence. how'd you watch this movie and not make the connection to martial arts and their beliefs? hell, how do you not figure that out PERIOD? what martial arts style encourages wanton violence and destruction? tell me one, and i'll shut up and let you take over. but if you name a single military one then you FAIL. those arts were designed to kill quickly and efficiently, but never were they designed to let people just go nuts. actually, screw that. go through both threads and tell me a single instance where we talked about developing the art and it was explicitly to be violent. that's right, there aren't any. and if you're gonna judge from my reactions, how bout you read this entire post and tell me i'm only yelling at you. if you still think so, you must be twelve.
i am not thick headed and intolerant, i'm actually quite open minded. we just have a certain mindset we intend to maintain here, and if you can't understand that, you don't belong here. it's that simple. oh, and news flash for you buddy - i happen to live in one of the epicenters of opinion. new york fucking city. so you tell me about intolerance and closedmindedness.
oh, 4th post and you still haven't contributed a single thing to this thread. why are you here again?
|
|
|
Post by LoneClericCobra on Jan 14, 2005 4:16:19 GMT -5
oh, 4th post and you still haven't contributed a single thing to this thread. why are you here again? Uh.. because he's a troll? I mean seriously, guys.. this is Trollish Behaviour 101. I'm amazed you took the time to actually reply to him after the mother's basement remark. Myself I would have used that time to play a little DooM ;D
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 14, 2005 4:18:52 GMT -5
shh, i'm trying to make his head explode.... ;D
|
|
|
Post by LoneClericCobra on Jan 14, 2005 4:35:16 GMT -5
Ah, I see. Or rather I don't Well.. have fun!
|
|
|
Post by bumrush on Jan 14, 2005 4:49:56 GMT -5
so if you don't have a problem with the video than what is your problem? i never said anything about endangering lives either. i only posted a video link with my thoughts. your the one whos head exploded.
"wait a minute what the fuck i have to tell you WHY? get the fuck outta here ya mook"
If i remeber correctly. The man in the video is a trained marine, the camera is a gas station camera. Your reaction to my comment about condeming violence was out of line, now your just trying to make excuses for yourself before everyone realizes what a bigot you are.
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 14, 2005 5:41:53 GMT -5
dude, your second comment was asking me why i would condone violence, and my overreaction is unjustified? do you have any idea how much trouble we could get in if you did something stupid with something we made and you told them that? i'll admit maybe i overreacted but spend some time in the gun kata section and you'll learn exactly why we do. i shouldn't have to explain why violence is not looked upon highly here, or anywhere for that matter. joke or not. you didn't exactly win brownie points by making that your second post either. but i dunno, maybe it was just the combination of the second post combined with analyzing a rather lame gunfight set something off in me. marine or not, that was a pretty shitty execution, and i don't mean the killing. that was a lot of rounds fired for only two people, and he kept going after they went down. so i don't think he was a marine. but hey, what do i know. one shot one kill right probly wasn't the order of the day there, especially that close...
so we're done then. no more arguing. constructive from here on. your last 5 posts are null, we're ignoring them. hi.
|
|
|
Post by Achilles on Jan 14, 2005 11:23:15 GMT -5
Bumrush, Do everyone a favor, read all the posts. Reaize that you will never amount to anything. Realize that you are mistaken. Leave and never touch a computer again. Spend the rest of your days in silent contemplation, and self loathing.
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 14, 2005 12:05:32 GMT -5
^^^whoa. that may be a bit harsh. just a bit. hehehehe.
-seriously though dude. bumrush. i dont know what happened. i checked that link and i see what you are sort of saying. you get a better feel for any sort of military tactics if you check the angle 5 camera instead. i see what you are thinking but it seems more like what you said pertains more to simple firearm combat, not a gun kata system at all. i dont neccessarily want to run you off yet, i like to give the benefit of the doubt. so here is what i would propose.
a) attempt to catch up with what is going on here. we have done most newcomers the favor of having jen sticky our previous work to the top of the page so that our past notes and progress are readily available. it saves a lot of backtracking and trouble we have had previously.
b) lets just start the fuck over, hows that? i am under the impression that your comment asking why we dont condone violence is (hopefully) a joke. tongue in cheek, so to speak. if not, i would suppose that this probably isnt the best place for you. if it is a joke then id say we all just move on.
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 14, 2005 22:33:25 GMT -5
achilles sounds like a gun monk. sitting underneath a waterfall with 2 super soaker pistol replicas, ha ;D
|
|
|
Post by Achilles on Jan 14, 2005 22:38:15 GMT -5
well everything but the supersoakers... just real italian beretta action...
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 15, 2005 2:35:12 GMT -5
i said that so you don't ruin perfectly good weaponry, but will still be able to return 'fire', hehe ;D
|
|