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Post by EsbenF on Mar 18, 2004 12:14:14 GMT -5
I propose everyone coming up with 1/2/3 stances for each position, and then we discuss them with each other. What I meant is that for each geometrical position (each geometrical relation to yourself), we all come up with 3 good moves/stances that'll effectively allow us to fire at the guy, and evade his fire at the same time. So basically we have 12 geometrical positions, and for each of those we each come up with 1/2/3 moves that'll work (or that we think will work), and we compare / discuss them afterwards. We might keep more than one, just to have the possibility of variation. More clear now ?
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Post by TrustKill on Mar 18, 2004 12:34:19 GMT -5
yes... much clearer
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Post by EsbenF on Mar 22, 2004 8:56:08 GMT -5
So anyways, I was kinda waiting for Rymel to input something, but I'm sure he'll be around in a few days and post a few pages of stuff I got one other thing we should work on - or at least start thinking about -the mindset? There should be some moral values and ideals attached to it, along with techniques of focusing and perhaps even meditation. The latter I don't particularily like, but we might develop something while practicing certain katas, after you get adept enough at it, it could become something like meditative to you. I watched the movie another few times over the weekend, and I think we need to make a decision; Are we going to follow the movie in the development, or are we going to go our own way? If you look at it like it is in the movie, it's a bit unrealistic, and not really worked through (like ours will hopefully be), but they do have some good ideas, and the base concept is still what we're working on. In respect to the 'multi-weapon-katas' or whatever you want to call them, in the movie, during the 'gun kata speech' Dupont makes, he says that they "treat the gun as a total weapon" - which in essence (as far as my english goes) means that the gun is the only weapon in their arsenal. Of course there's nothing wrong with having rifle training, and training in shotgun technique etc. But to go as far as to make a speficia set of katas for them... I think it won't be doable. The reason for that being that you use your arms all the time, both to balance yourself but also as weights to help you adopt new stances - and the nature of rifles, shotguns & SMGs require you to keep both hands on the thing while firing, or the recoil will send the rifle barrel right up into your nose Now while some of you out there might enjoy picking your nose with rifles, I for one like to use my finger, or another object which doesn't eject spinning metal bits at oversonic speeds ;D (sorry) What I was trying to say is: While you're keeping the shotgun / rifle / smg close to your body, and keeping both arms on the rifle, it's very limited which moves you can do to dodge bullets. As far as I can think, you can actually only move in a direction and hope the opponent isn't good at tracking moving targets - or you can do rolls / flips or the like, which is just crazy during a gunfight, 1: because your aim gets thrown completely and 2: you have no way of knowing what the other guy's doing while you roll / flip. I'm not sure how many of you people involved have tried firing with a few different SMGs or Rifles (I haven't actually tried any shotguns myself, but I imagine it requires quite a lot of skill to do it properly), but it does require you to be somewhat still if you want to have any hopes of hitting anything. Anyways I think we did agree last time to postpone this <other weapon than pistol> katas thing till after we get somewhere with the basic stuff.
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Post by TrustKill on Mar 22, 2004 9:40:00 GMT -5
mentality is important, especially in exercises where you will have lethal force pretty much on a whim... i like the idea of developing some focusing and relaxing techniques to go along with the actually manuevers.
-i want to take our gun kata in its own direction. the movie idea probably isnt the most efficient sets of movements at all as they are just there for looks in the film. i think we need to start from scratch and i think we are on the right track w/ that since we arent going about this by trying to choreograph the katas from the movie, or develop it in that way. instead we sort of stripped it down and started up with basics. sure the final product may not look or perform like the gun kata from the movie, but it will probably be more accurate to real life and be exponentially more practical. or so it seems to me...
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Post by EsbenF on Mar 22, 2004 10:21:00 GMT -5
Agreed - but a lot of the concepts from the movie are perfectly good and make sense. At least a lot of the describing bits are useful.
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Devlin
Sense Offender
From the gun came the bullet
Posts: 1
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Post by Devlin on Mar 25, 2004 23:37:37 GMT -5
Hey guys, i might have something of interest to you. While on the internet I happened to stumble across a few things that could possibly aid us in training. First off is a quick reference to practicing "akimbo styled" shooting, using Airsoft guns. www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/articles/newbie_guide/two_gunning.htmNOTE: I didn't write it, I just found it.Though, before getting all "involved", I suggest you go to your local toy store and buy some plastic toy guns. This way you can practice the movements fast and efficiently without having to worry about live ammunition. Of course, during this time you can save and invest your money for the "oh-so-sexy" Airsoft guns that you so desire. Keep in mind though, that airsoft guns, the more accurately portrayed anyway, will be much heavier than a plastic toy gun. So, you may want to have some muscle under your belt. Secondly, I came upon a website that is selling what they call a Tactical Simulation Vest. It is designed for airsofters or S.W.A.T. in training. It can be combined with PC software that will record the hits and their locations, though, modular add-ons are seperate. There is also a much more slimmer vest known as the GUNFIGHT TSV, but I'm not sure if it is as in-depth as the above mentioned. Much more info at their site... www.bioval.net/tsv/airsoft.aspNOTE: I'm not a sales person. LOLLastly, I believe that when developing Gun-Kata motions that they should be able to fluidly transition from one to the next. Also, we should cover the four base directions (i.e. front, back, left, right). You can think of it as a clock or compass. This way we can cover the basic directions and then, as we develop our skill and Gun-Kata system, we could easily adapt motions to the diagonal angles of direction. I believe that most, if not all, martial arts have some sort of fundamentals. So, we develop moves for the base directions and then expand from there. This way, we have a more organized idea of what move we should be looking to create and the direction the we will be aiming. Of course, a mindset would definitely need to be established. The motions should become second nature to you and be executed at a deafening rate of speed. But without your attention focused on intention you can't really do that. Especially if you're thinking about how soft the grass is or how hot it is outside. Basically, without focus, you'll probably screw up. Thanks for taking the time to read this and I'll help as much as I can. Though, these are my own personal thoughts and/or ideas and should be taken as such. Just trying to help.[glow=red,2,300]EQ ROCKS![/glow] P.S. I'm also working on something that may be of use to us in the future... don't ask. LOL
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Post by EsbenF on Mar 26, 2004 7:57:34 GMT -5
Though, before getting all "involved", I suggest you go to your local toy store and buy some plastic toy guns. This way you can practice the movements fast and efficiently without having to worry about live ammunition. ...... ... Keep in mind though, that airsoft guns, the more accurately portrayed anyway, will be much heavier than a plastic toy gun. So, you may want to have some muscle under your belt. I'll be the first to say this... and I'm quite sure I won't be the last. The above things have been discussed to no end, and a lot of the other points you made I've made myself before. While we do appreciate the input, we REALLY don't like it when people start posting in this thread without reading the previous gun kata thread, or at least this thread. Just to clarify, I'm not flaming you here - just recommending that you go read the thread, there's a link for it at the top of the forum this thread is in. Once you've read that and this one, you're welcome to parttake in the discussion. The reason why we want people to read them, is that otherwise we'll be stuck in the same place forever discussing the same things over and over again, because the new people don't know that they've already been discussed ad nauseam. I know it's a lot of reading, but it is however a prerequisite to not pissing us off constantly with the posting. If you think I'm being too hard on you, you should read the posts and see how many people before you posted info that's been worked on till we were blue in the face - this isn't the first time this has been said, and it's most likely not the last time some of us will have to iterate it Otherwise thanks for the info, while most of your post wasn't exactly new material, the links are very useful. I hope you won't be discouraged by this. -Esben
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Post by TrustKill on Mar 26, 2004 9:45:56 GMT -5
its not totally w/o new information.
-we have talked about the different positions of enemies and such, but i like the idea of using a sort of clock system in the development to sort of make it easier to follow. whether we actually use a specific clock-like system doesnt really matter, but the use of a ton of spots to designate opponent locations is nice even just in the technical descriptions that we put. get it?
-otherwise, yeah... im not trying to beat the dead horse but most of these ideas have been around and restated quite often.
-esben, maybe we should go through and compile and make a sort of "gun kata development common knowledge" list. sort of like they did with the gun switch thread. what do you think?
-oh and devlin... dont run off. we're good people, i promise.
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Post by TrustKill on Mar 26, 2004 9:47:14 GMT -5
P.S. I'm also working on something that may be of use to us in the future... don't ask. LOL -okay... so im going to ask. ??
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Post by Rymel on Mar 28, 2004 0:53:22 GMT -5
for those of you who think i've died, i've just been a bit busy with life and will return with yet another 2 page post...i know you guys just hate those...and i'm not reading any of this yet because i'll WANT to post about it...and i'm not home yet >.<
for now i'll post this concept to you guys: developing pistol spinning (on the finger or in the air) into viable techniques. gun butt uppercuts anyone? think offensive strike, knife hand strike (top of the gun), palm strike with the opposing hand, hammer fist to the neck, then either lift up for a double pistol whip/hammer strike (common names for pistol/empty hand techniques) to the temples...or partially spin the opposing hand's gun after the neck strike and raise into a gun-butt uppercut...no i'm not a killer ;D
you could also modify said combat example and either move from the palm strike or omit it entirely, change it into an arm swoop, lifting the opponent's arm around (if you skipped the palm strike he'll probably already be spinning in the right direction anyway), and strike the back of the neck then. i swear i'm not a killer. i just develop the techniques ^_^;;
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Post by EsbenF on Apr 1, 2004 5:51:22 GMT -5
-esben, maybe we should go through and compile and make a sort of "gun kata development common knowledge" list. sort of like they did with the gun switch thread. what do you think? Okay, I'll pick up that glove... *runs off to TextEdit* EDIT: I imagine we'll need this anyways, in order to proceed. Since we have so much information scattered out, that it'd be nice to see if we can get it all assembled so we can find info without reading pages of posts to get to it.
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Post by Basic System on Apr 15, 2004 15:17:36 GMT -5
Hi, As you've probably noticed, I'm rather new to your community here, but I thought I'd put forward my suggestions to your endeavor. As far as any form of "gun-kata" becomming effective as an actual fighting style, I would lean towards saying it's not likely. The effectiveness of a single user armed with handguns against multiple opponents armed with equal if not superior weaponry is something one will find freqently in action movies, but very rarely in real-life. While such martial-arts combinations may look stunning and may have some effective application against a single (or maybe double) target(s), the amount of factors to take in when combatting so many opponents at once would result in negating any effect such a show would display. With that said, I think it's a wonderful idea to develop the forms as an art-form and a means of honing instincts and situational awareness. With that in mind, I sat down today and had a look at what knowledge I have in existing fighting styles (I hold a 2nd degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do and have had considerable experience cross-training in Filipino Ju-jitsu and escrima) and made a starting attempt to put to paper a basis for developing practicable kata. Escrima is a fighting art developed around the use of single and double-weilded cane sticks (usually made of rattan, but can easily trasfer to short swords, riot batons, etc.). Basic attacks and defenses are taught in various "angles" - different positions for each stick in offense and defense. So, I thought, why not try some of the same ideas in application to using two handguns. As I envision it, gun-kata would be developed and taught in three stages: the first stage covers a 180-degree arc in front of the user and contains different angles for each weapon the user wields and defines arcs for each angle (kill-zones, if you will); stage two covers transitions from the 180-degree arc in front of the practicioner to the rear facing arc (angles will be the same for both the fron and rear arcs, it's the transition that is important here); stage three covering transitions from targets in the horizontal plane to targets in the vertical plane (encompassing all angles previously taught and adding transitions to eliminate percieved targets at other elevations). All I've begun working with so far is five basic angles to cover the front arc, so remember, this is not complete in any form Position of Rest/Ready: Weapons are held in the vertical position, left on the bottom, right on the top. Angle One: Weapons are brought level, and held out in front of the practicioner, covering a 15-degree "slice" directly in front of the user Angle Two: Right hand weapon moves 90-degrees to become fully extended to the right-side of the body; left hand weapon remains in the angle one position; practicioner covers a 90-degree slice on his right-side Angle Three: Right hand weapon moves half-way back (45 degrees) to Angle One position; left hand weapon continues to remain in Angle One position; this effectively closes the "slice" to a 45-degree arc on the right side of the body; NOTE: I know an additional arc is redundant when a 90-degree slice previously covers it, I include this (and Angle 5) as transitional movements of use mainly when changing stance to cover the rear-arc. Angle Four: Right hand weapon remains (or returns) to its Angle One position, and the left hand weapon moves 90-degrees to become fully extended to the left-side of the body; again the practicioner covers a 90-degree arc with this angle Angle Five: Left hand weapon moves halfway back (45 degrees) to Angle One position with the right hand weapon remaing in its Angle One position, again closing the "slice" to 45 degrees to the left of the practicioner; That's it for the Basic Angles; my plan is to work out some Advanced Angles for the front arc, covering more intricate movements involving moving both hands at once in different or simliar directions. This, however, should allow anyone who wishes to develop some *very* basic kata for practicing movements and transitions between them; Let me know what you think - more will follow.
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Post by RittWitt on Apr 15, 2004 15:19:17 GMT -5
I apologize, I wasn't logged in when I posted the above.
I'm Ritt!
Mwah!
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Post by TrustKill on Apr 15, 2004 15:42:16 GMT -5
sounds good, Ritt. welcome to the gun-kata development group here.
-your info may just be the push we need to get over this hump of inactivity.
-post an introduction in the, well... introduction thread. tell everyone "Hi"
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Post by Dj_Bliss on Apr 15, 2004 19:33:40 GMT -5
hey guys...im not really new to the boards as u may tell...but i wanted to participate in some gun-kata stuff. i was watching a special on discovery channel called XMA. it qas a matial arts porgram. One thing they brought up that might help is chess. they used some cgi to model some fighters on a chessboard. They said u read your enimies move ahead of time like chess. i might make up sumthin on ms paint soon and email it to u guys.
DjBliss
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Post by Dodger on Apr 16, 2004 1:33:46 GMT -5
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Post by Dodger on Apr 16, 2004 5:07:52 GMT -5
Re. names - if GunKata is the form, then GunKumite (pronounced "koo-me-tay") would refer to freestyle fighting. The art as a whole could be Gunjutsu or Gundo, depending on whether it was more of a battle art or a sport/exercise/"self perfection" thing.
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Post by Dodger on Apr 16, 2004 5:24:35 GMT -5
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Post by EsbenF on Apr 16, 2004 7:28:19 GMT -5
RittWitt - what you're stating there actually isn't so different from what we already decided to go with. You do however start much further ahead than we were planning. What we decided to do is different katas depending on where the enemies are / how many there is etc. Not just 1 kata to take out anywhere from 1 to 15 antagonists (I might have misunderstood you here). So what we were planning to do first of all is to concentrate on taking one opponnent out in the most effective way - this we would do placing ourselves in the middle of the face of a watch, and placing an antagonist on 12, when we decided on which way would be best to take him out, we'd place him on 1 and so forth.. After that, we'll develop the best way of dispatching of 2 antagonists, same way. The most people you can ever fire at at one time is 2 anyways, so that'll be all we need to go through. Once done, we'll have to look into transitioning from each movement to the next, and once we copple that with some strategic information about which antagonists should be taken out first, we've got a kata. It's good that you're getting the aiming down with angles (actually we've talked about this before as an alternative), we however still need to position the body such that you will be harder to hit when he returns fire. That is to me what makes this different from all the other combat shooting systems - they're all about hitting the other guy first, which makes sense in many cases, but with more than one opponnent it starts to get unrealistic to get them all before they can return fire. TrustKill: what I personally needed was for Rymel to send me that document back, that'd be nice. I hate working on many things at once, especially when this document actually is the basis of the further development. RYMEEEEEL!!! *sends mental ping to Rymel* A final note to RittWitt: I would like a little bit of additional explanation about your system, I think I get most of it, but a few pieces are missing - it doesn't make total sense to me. Like how exactly is this going to make you better than the other guys? That bit of justification is missing, I think. I'd like some theory on how this will allow you to fire faster / more accurately / ? ? ? hence giving you the upper hand. Also another thing you need to consider, is that you can never position a gun in a defensive position, that doesn't really make sense. You probably thought of this already, I just wanted to point it out in regards to the system you mentioned with positioning one weapon as offensive and one as defensive. Guns don't make good shields :-)
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Post by RittWitt on Apr 16, 2004 13:23:00 GMT -5
First of all, thanks for the warm welcomes into your community here. In response to EsbenF, I'd just like to say that what I'm laying out there isn't designed to be a single kata - rather it's a set of basic angles and transitional movements for constructing katas. It's been my experience that kata's have no "real-world" application in direct translation. The application of "katas" (also called "patterns" in more Westernized martial arts schools) are series of movements designed to train reflexes and what my sensei used to call "muscle-memory." Essentially, if you practice a movement enough times, your body remembers how to fall into that pattern when it counts. Anyway, I guess I'm just trying to make a straigtforward way of creating these katas so others can begin to experiment with basic moves.
About positioning - I haven't really put any mind to different kinds of stances (this is what I would consider the defensive aspect - not that I'm blocking a bullet with a weapon, although I could see a cross-block type maneuver working against a physical strike, but that I'm positioning myself in the most effective way to deal out the most damage, and recieve the least in return). To respond to the request for theory on how this makes you better/faster/more-accurate/etc, the idea behind all martial arts training (not just this) is that it hones your reflexes and trains you to pay attention to things you normally would miss. It raises perception, increases response times, and allows the pracitioner to react properly to a "fluid" situation very quickly. However, I never intended to give the impression that this art is something that would really work. Despite what you see in Hollywood, you take one hit and a gunfight, and you're done. Regular bullets deal massive trauma to unprotected flesh - even if you're wearing some sort of kevlar vest, you're still going to recieve a serious bruise and will probably be stunned enough that you'll be shot again, if you're in a fight with someone determined to kill you one-on-one. This is an art-form, not a combat art.
Again, I'd like to point out that yesterday's post was very basic - and that there's LOTS to be done still ;D It's not complete at any rate, and thanks very much for the feedback. I hope I haven't tread on anyone's toes here - I'm a bit late into the game, I know. Let me know if there's any other questions - I'll do my best to answer them.
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Megalomaniac
Resistance Member
Part Time Killer-Full Time Slacker
Posts: 34
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Post by Megalomaniac on Apr 25, 2004 20:13:36 GMT -5
I'm new to the forums but, i am willing to be a test subject for kata styles. PM me with any charts or moves and i'll test them to the best of abilities, then report about it back on here. I'm currently trying to compile the basic info on Gun-Kata (i've read this and the other post twice)
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Post by EsbenF on Apr 26, 2004 11:12:11 GMT -5
I'm currently trying to compile the basic info on Gun-Kata (i've read this and the other post twice) That won't be nesecary - I've already done it and sent the document off to Rymel... I'm just waiting for him to get back to me with it. On the second week now I believe. Maybe he accidentically got zapped into an alternate dimension, where gun kata is actually card games and alien women teach dogs how to perform the ballet in a big bowl of broken ladders. We're still working on the basic forms at the moment, and as such haven't developed any katas or anything like it. We're at a drought at the moment, call it lack of inspiration or what you will - all of a sudden we seemed to meet a so far unseen amount of resistance, which did discourage us some. However thou shalt not fear - we will be back... Just because I'm not posting here doesn't mean I'm not thinking, and I'm sure that goes for my accomplicees as well Personally I have several great ideas, which I've been testing myself and they appear to work so far, so when the time is right and I've finished the 'gun kata common knowledge', I shall post it.
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Megalomaniac
Resistance Member
Part Time Killer-Full Time Slacker
Posts: 34
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Post by Megalomaniac on Apr 26, 2004 15:25:25 GMT -5
Well it is good to know that core group is still working on the project. If you ever need a test subject for even basic stuff just PM me.
(Also is my damnable avatar working? I set it up last night and it worked then, but now it does not appear)
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Post by Darkman on Apr 29, 2004 5:16:34 GMT -5
Hey. I have read the development of Gun kata, and I wonder if its true that some people are make there owm version of the EQ fithing styl? In that case I wonder if I migth join in? I have years of experince from various martial arts. Contact me if its true what I read!
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YHWH
Sense Offender
thats right, im THE tetragrammaton
Posts: 3
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Post by YHWH on Jul 3, 2004 0:23:12 GMT -5
is this dead? i thought i might have a few interesting ideas/viewpoints. If it is dead then its just 3 hours of wasted time reading the old posts.
I might add that im not trying to be hostile but was looking forward to maybe contributing my ideas and was a little disappointed when the posts ended in april.
Maybe if i can get a large response from the general community we can ressurect it?
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Post by Libby on Jul 3, 2004 13:24:54 GMT -5
Tbh, I think most of the 'serious' GunKata guys have basically gone 'underground' and formed their own site somewhere...perhaps you could try reaching them through any email address they've left on this site...
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Post by JenGe on Jul 3, 2004 14:11:41 GMT -5
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Post by Libby on Jul 3, 2004 18:04:41 GMT -5
Must admit, Jen, it worries me a bit...what they might try and do. The mere thought of 'live' kata is truly scary.
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YHWH
Sense Offender
thats right, im THE tetragrammaton
Posts: 3
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Post by YHWH on Jul 3, 2004 18:39:33 GMT -5
i think the original thread starters were pretty clear that this was a sort of side project and "real kata" would only be used years or decades in the future if ever... and thats a really big if. any one whos ever shot something will tell you bullets are pretty damn destructive. Thanks for the suggestions though im doing some google searching and emailing the old members (Rymel, Trustkill, Esben). and as for Vickers.... thanks for ruining the party
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Post by TrustKill on Jul 6, 2004 14:52:09 GMT -5
as i responded to the email just a few minutes ago...
-it is not dead because of anyones comments or anything of the sort. the serious gunkata development is merely on an "extended hiatus" due to lack of participating persons. the only original creative team that is left in this forum is me, hehehe. no matter how totally awesome i may be, i cant do it on my own. some of my ideas suck and i need people like rymel and esben to tell me so and vice versa.
-so until some more eager and open minds come looking to help out, who knows?
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