|
Post by Rymel on Mar 10, 2004 17:05:18 GMT -5
welcome preacher! there is no club for discussion here, just a small group of people who regularly keep up with it, so i guess it sounds like a bit of a team. but that doesn't mean we can't take criticism i agree that the main point of the cleric is to administer maximum damage to the most targets while staying in the least statistically damaging areas totally, and i'm not sure if you've seen it yet but we've got around 14 pages of discussion on another thread titled "gun kata discussion (i know, old but yea)" if you're interested in perusing it. it talks about the importance of posture and all that i believe. if not...we were all thinking about it ^_^; now as to calibur...i know that so long as it hits critical points bullet size doesn't matter, but i was thinking more of penetration power. as an advanced sweeper, they sometimes have to fire through walls and other objects to get their job done, and a 22 just wouldn't cut it. i can't remember if there was a scene where they had to fire through a wall, but i'm sure the need would be there. i mean their opponents are using rifles that can fire through walls and doors, i'd hope my weapon can return the favor. but trust to be honest i was thinking of going through walls, sheet metal, and body armor when i made that post...and i think even a 22 cal handgun round may ricochet, and i'd rather not have that risk around at all unless i knew the terrain i was going into would not have such a risk, or a really low chance of it. don't get me wrong though, i would use smaller calibur rounds myself if the situation merited it, but if it was close quarters combat in small rooms (meaning less targets per room..)...i'd stick with larger caliburs and just reload between room sweeps...even if it's only a few seconds to spare. that's when bullet counting comes in handy ;D but i do agree with yours and trust's points on smaller cal weapons. i'm just stubborn ^_^ concerning gun weight...that's what loads and loads of training is for! the monastery recruited young boys for training. this was probably more for brainwashing but also for training in the arts of the gun kata. preston may have trained later since he mentioned he was a predawn witness, but his sheer dedication may have made him an exception to the rule. the 4-way compensator was what was generally agreed on, however the issue i have with it is with it firing with such close proximity to the face. unless the flash occurs so quickly it wouldn't cause harm. hey trust...do you know if they sell those rubber/plastic real weight replicas to civilians? if i can't even get that (i don't see WHY...) i may just do a little lucrative dealing and acquire real ones and practice with those...huge risk so unlikely. preacher, your criticism is good about the clip idea...but how would it interfere with gun kata positions? most of the time the clips point outward, so other than rebalancing issues i dunno what you mean. i do acknowledge that it would create problems concerning melee kata techniques, but reinforcement plus the addition of a blade would open up doors for new techniques. actually while i typed that i thought about it...it might make some parts of the kata difficult, but nothing compensation wouldn't fix. easiest thing to do would be to make a modified form for clip extensions, blade or not. and that is all for now...the disciple of the post katas has returned!
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 11, 2004 5:31:08 GMT -5
Hello everyone I've spent the worst part of 3 days reading up on the last forum articles that were to develop Gun Kata. I was mostly impressed to find that you are all experienced martial artists and actually working on this - but I was also a little disapointed to find that almost every single post in this part of the forum is about the guns... !? Gun Kata is as far as I can fathom not at all about the guns you use, but about a mindset and routine that will allow you to shoot your enemy faster and with more accuracy than almost anyone, whilst taking up a stance in relation to him and other antagonists that will keep you clear of the statistically probable lines of return fire (from any of them). With this in mind, I would like to make a suggestion to actually start the work on the katas themselves, in stead of discussing guns - because as ClericEnemies said in the previous thread, for the first years of training, just about anything would be as good as a gun replica or real gun (even the finger-gun that's seen in the movie) Unfortunately I myself will have tremendous trouble doing this alone, being as I am not at all very experienced with martial arts (I've tried a few, and understand the basics, but only had a maximum of 1 years training in total). However I am very knowledgable about guns, calibres, recoil and the likes - so I imagine that I could still contribute some valuable information. First of all I'd like to point out an obvious candidate for the cleric gun that you all seem to have missed... H&K USP Expert. You seem to disagree between 9mm and .45+ - so why not select a compromise? This one is weighing in at approximately 850 grams, when loaded with .40 S&W it's clip size is 16, which should be sufficient for a cleric sidearm - it's however a very versatile gun, being as it can actually fire 3 different types of ammo (giving way to custom gun specialization as you've also mentioned earlier on): 9mm - clip size is 19 .40 - clip size is 16 .45 - clip size 12 This would be my best bid for a reliable cleric sidearm, and both Rymel and TrustKill could get their way, with 9mm and .45 (sorry but after reading all those posts I almost feel like I know you guys ;D). Another thought I've had after reading all your comments - The Cleric isn't meant to be dodging bullets 'matrix style' or anything like that - as far as I can see, he's supposed to shoot & kill (or at least incapacitate) an enemy faster than that enemy can do the same to himself. Which in my eyes means that the katas should allow him to VERY quickly put bullets in critical places of an opponents body, and in the case of multiple adversaries he should use the appropriate kata for the "geometrical distribution" he's currently facing, which should then keep him clear of enemy fire. As far as my reason goes, it's all about killing the other guy first and hence keeping him from returning any fire at all. Of course the katas help accomplish this, as well as dodge bullets - but primarily it's about shooting to kill, and doing so faster than the other guy... I guess what I want to say with this is that we need to keep the priorities straight. Anyone who disagrees or has a different angle on this please do let your voices be heard, since I haven't discussed this with anyone yet, I might be wrong (obviously). On another note I'm looking for replicas of the USPs online and in stores myself, and will purchase them as soon as I find a suitable pair. Hope there's still room for additional people to help with this -Esben
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 11, 2004 9:12:08 GMT -5
yeah, there certainly is room for help from anyone.
-rymel... i dont know anyplace that sells those solid plastic/rubber training replicas. im pretty sure that you can get springer airsoft guns for cheaper than you could the rubber ones anyway (for some reason they are sort of expensive, i think). the springers wouldnt be as heavy but they would be technically identical with safeties, mag releases, etc in the same locations.
-i suppose the best way to remove the "debate" about ammo size would be to not standardize the ammo at all and let people choose their preference... easy enough.
-welcome new people to the gunkata forums! its nice to have some folks who actually a) read posts prior to talking nonsense b) have some good ideas to add into the mix. im sure this project/idea/brainstorming/whatever will benefit from what you have to offer.
-as for working on actual gun katas... i think enemies was the closest to actually doing it. he and his buddies would go out and play airsoft with enemies taking the brunt of some abuse just so he could test some things out. i drew up some plans that included enemies' foot placement chart as well as another type of chart that i devised. i put together an entire set of movements against 8 targets. unfortunately, work was entirely too busy that week and the papers got lost in the shuffle. maybe i should try again with some more refined vision.
-there are a couple of things to think about that would be taken from sword fighting. momentum is everything. the kata movements should be built around a system of constant motion in a smooth arc. this would not only help to make things happen faster, but would also keep the body from getting fatigued from breaking momentum and then having to work force back up to move in another direction. possibly the recoil from the weapons firing could be integrated into this idea to make the kata movements even more motion based. that would be a matter of practice to see how best to harness the recoil power in combination with the set of movements and that would no doubt take a lot, A LOT of time to calibrate, but i thought it would be worth mentioning if i havent already.
-TrustKill-
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 11, 2004 11:31:42 GMT -5
Agreed on the ammo debate, but I still stand by my choice of pistol, since it's a very valid alternative to the berettas etc.. Especially since this one is more precise than a beretta.
As for the momentum, as soon as I read the first 3 lines of your paragraph about that it reminded me of something I've been giving a lot of thought to. And it's exactly like in certain sword-techniques, you swing the blade around and around building up more and more momentum untill the other guy is dead - same thing goes here, you keep firing and moving through the (in this case VERY well planned and practiced) kata, building up more and more momentum with every shot untill every enemy is dead. If you really master channelling the recoil into your arms and body in stead of the wrist, and using that energy to help you move - I suppose that given the right circumstances you would be able perform certain moved at 'unnatural speed' (accelecation of arms, changing direction of same, and the like..).
This would mean creating a whole 'recoil powered' kata for a given situation (geometrical distribution of antagonists ;-)), apart from the normal kata to be used in that situation, or just developing that one to avail itself of recoil power as well as body power.
There are much easier things to work out with recoil though, small moves that might be pulled out if a certain problem arises... for instance if you're facing 3 enemies, 1 reloading, 1 about to fire in front of you and behind you someone's closed in to grabble you (unarmed) - you could hold your arm up in a 90degrees angle completely horizontal, and use the recoil from firing at the guy in front to swing a *very* powerful elbow swing at the guy coming from behind - could kill your shoulder though, if not applied correctly (or if you don't hit him to stop the movement). But generally you should be really close to him when executing this, or it'll severely damage your arm... it could be used as a stun-move though. Anyways this is extremely dangerous... anyone of us who has ever fired a handgun in real life knows that...
I think to be able to properly channel the energy from the recoil that I need to have a look at Tai Chi... But I'd recommend saving the whole recoil-momentum thing to later on - since it kinda requires that we have the basics worked out first, and then we can incorporate it.
Speaking of the basics, does anyone have that document Enemies made on hand positions ? You all said that it was very technical, but the link he posted for it is down... If someone could send it to me I'd really appreciate it.
EDIT: I'll PM whoever wants to help my private e-mail adress, if someone will be as kind as to send it.
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 11, 2004 13:23:46 GMT -5
crap... i had it at one point, but only to make print outs with.
-maybe i can recreate it if memory serves. it was pretty complex and required some explaining on enemies part at first, but it made sense. ill see what i can do about refashioning one...
|
|
|
Post by Preacher on Mar 11, 2004 18:30:24 GMT -5
The Kata of gun Kata seemes to derrive from Tai Chi, which is not only a case of conditioning the body it is also a conditioning of the mind. reason being having a conditioned mind you could think clearly in what to do next and delay *if not even stop* any kind of panic reactions, If there was anywhere to start looking as into seriously develop body positioning etc theres where to look *have a bad feeling you have done but oh well* do you guys think you could have different stlyes of gunkata just as there are different styles of kung fu.. ie animal styles, drunken etc sorry to drag convo back to guns but I think the Infinity Excellorater with an extended clip would make an excellent cleric sidearm sorry i dont have much to say kind of in over my head im now off to wade thru 14 pages of ur old posts
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 12, 2004 5:15:01 GMT -5
That would be truly great TrustKill, reson being that I'm not really too experienced into this whole martial arts thing, so any basic knowledge I can get of what you guys had in mind will help me a lot. Also it could be good to practice it a little, to see if something comes up. Speaking of which I tried yesterday to figure out a few possible katas - nothing I would try in a live-fire exercise, but I'm getting there. I agree with Preacher that there most likely is some inspiration from Tai Chi (see all the yin-yang poses you see them do during the movie), but there's clearly also a lot of kung-fu inspiration, and even some karate stances I've spotted in there. I think they've been inspired by at least 5-6 different, probably more. About the gun you recommend Preacher, traditional paintball guns won't really work for this, since they have that big ol' tank sitting on top of them - that just throws the balance too much, and is also in the way when you want to move your other arm closely over your gun. Apart from that, it's too easy to grab or push for an opponent, who wants to throw your aim. This was however covered in the last thread, I believe And about the different styles of gun kata, look at www.gunkatta.com - this guy worked out a short video with what he calls 'mantis style' gun kata. It's very possible to make different styles, but it wouldn't make much sense, since all it's about is shooting the other guys, and not getting hit yourself. To accomplish this it's better to borrow from ALL the styles you could make, and make something that's simple and works. Of course depending on who's practicing it, it will have a slightly different style, especially after it's fully developed, some people will drag into one direction and others into a totally different, which would make room for things like that... (was also covered in other thread though;D) But before going into things like that, I think the basics should be created. Bruce Lee wouldn't have had much luck inventing Jeet Kune Do if someone hadn't already invented Kung-Fu
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 12, 2004 6:13:20 GMT -5
By the way, you might have figured out that I actually live in Ireland at the moment, which means that I'm on Greenwich time here.
Just in case you're wondering why I post at such strange times. Another thing is that I don't have an internet connection at home (yet, it has been ordered though), so I'm only posting while I'm at work (which is fine, I'm here at least 9 hours a day anyways...).
|
|
Preacher unlogged in
Guest
|
Post by Preacher unlogged in on Mar 12, 2004 7:06:20 GMT -5
About the gun you recommend Preacher, traditional paintball guns won't really work for this, since they have that big ol' tank sitting on top of them - that just throws the balance too much, and is also in the way when you want to move your other arm closely over your gun. LOL OMG you think i would reccomentd a POS like a paint ball gun??!!! ghahahah the Infinity is a beasty handgun which has a full auto variant AKA Prokiller or something mmmm nice? it also has extended clips etc I have the new gas blowback deserteagle... i jus had the parts upgraded, it now has a metal slide and metal lower frame... yes its heavy... lol... i tried to mimic some of the moves from the film, NO i didnt fire it lol, YES it was loaded and YES the saftey was firmly ON lol, umm let me put it this way desert eagle with full metal frame and slide is fucking heavy lol controling aim while doing that was so hard, mor training i suppose lol
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 12, 2004 7:59:24 GMT -5
sorry about the gun, I only knew the paintball version, which is called exactly the same... didn't know it was a real gun. Looks nice, would like to test it in real life though, since it looks like the recoil could be quite a mother to handle... I'll do some reading up umm let me put it this way desert eagle with full metal frame and slide is fucking heavy lol controling aim while doing that was so hard, mor training i suppose lol Who ever said this is going to be easy? ;D Actually I'm personally weight-training every day these days, to build up the arm / shoulder muscles necessary to control the guns properly & handle the recoil... especially the latter will be very hard! But then again... you are kinda asking for it using a desert eagle replica That thing is enourmous !
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 12, 2004 10:03:58 GMT -5
i was thinking more along the lines of a beretta cougar as a side arm or an FN 5.7, but picking them is sort of a moot point... people are going to get whatever they want.
-different styles would definitely arise during gunkata development. actually... that plan that i drew up forever ago that i was talking about in a previous post was designed for innovation. it was just an arrowed order of shooting 8 opponents in a systematic way that i thought would be the most efficient order to dispatch them (based on your line of sight, natural body position and most efficient range of motion.) it had side notes to say which gun was firing at what opponent and when and i was planning to combine that chart w/ enemies' gun kata foot positioning chart.
-it was supposed to be set up as more of an example than anything else. damn, i wish i could find it... anyway, basically what i am trying to say is, with that plan different people might do the same exact set of motions in the same exact order but it may be completely different. specific people can tailor the basic foot positions and hand/gun positions to their own needs based on personal strength, speed, how tall they are, stuff like that. i tried to leave it open as much as possible.
-the reason my chart never got posted was, as a flowchart (all the movements were on one peice of paper) it was hard to decipher what happened and when. i decided to turn it into a one movement phase per page system and then have the whole range outlined on the final page so you could see it in a sort of connect the dots motion sequence. the whole deal was going to be really time consuming. im talking REALLY time consuming. combine that with the fact that work got really busy and i got nothing done. the papers got shuffled away somewhere and thus, the inspiration was gone as well.
-maybe once things settle down ill do another one and then draw it out on the computer. then ill try to have Jen host it so i can post it on here.
-hot damn this is a long and tedious post...
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 12, 2004 10:21:00 GMT -5
i dont want to insult anyone who knows, but here are pics for those who dont... Fabrique Nationale Five-SeveN Pistol (in all its glory) this is actually a modified version of a beretta cougar. airsofters will maybe recognize it as a Western Arms Beretta Cougar Blade version. if they could make something like this in a real-steel version that would be prime for me... -SIDENOTE: anyone else think about the use of laser sights for the cleric guns? seems to make sense to me since you obviously couldnt use the iron sights on two guns at once. just a thought...
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 12, 2004 10:47:14 GMT -5
I'm going to draw up a kata I invented yesterday once I get home, and if I can get somewhere to do so, post it somewhere around this internet-thingy I'm sure you will all find that I'm t3h m4st3r of MSPaint.exe ;D Seriosly though, I'm very good in photoshop, but the only image CREATION tool I'm remotely proficient in is paint lol I'll probably do some stickman-like thing - since it's not really important that every curve of the elbow is illustrated correctly, I think that you will be able to imagine your way into the rest. If I really get into it, and get the big wollet out, I'll draw a proper man in Paint , buy Photoshop and manipulate him in there, doing various positions... Maybe I should get illustrator? ... hmmm... I'm gonna be so broke next week, aren't I?
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 12, 2004 11:02:29 GMT -5
hahaha, i think the stick man stuff will do just fine for now.
-start saving your money for those custom cleric pistols we are all going to buy once we standardize the system...
(insert wishful thinking here)
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 12, 2004 11:18:48 GMT -5
I have given the sights some thought as well, especially laser sights (since they're uber cool hehe) - but I came to the logical (well according to me anyways) conclusion that a Cleric doesn't need to use his sights at all - he's so adept at firing the guns, and knows exactly which angle of the arm / wrist gives him a hit in X area at X distance. That's what I thought anyways. Gun kata is not really meant for long-range combat with guns anyways - get a sniper with a Barrett .50 cal for that
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 12, 2004 11:26:44 GMT -5
Sorry to double post like this, well right out forumspam... but I just remembered something, which doesn't have anything to do with my previous post. In my post kata style that means that I have to make a new one Regarding the name for this thing... how about just calling it "Gun" ? It makes perfect sense the more I think about it - and the Gun Katas are just that, katas of the Gun art. And after all, the gun is what this whole thing revolves around. Also we'd give some credits to Kurt Wimmer for coming up with the original idea, by sticking with his name, which I like. Thoughts ? *braces for onslaught of flameposts*
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 12, 2004 11:37:15 GMT -5
haha... this has been a topic of discussion for a while.
-there have been names thrown out there such as gun-fu and stuff like that. rymel has my vote though. he came up with one called gun waltz which, for some reason, really strikes my fancy.
-how about gun-do? (like dough) that is used to label things as "the art of" in japanese. like kendo, hapkido, etc. i dunno.
-i suppose "the art of using handguns in a method that totally dominates everyone elses asses" is out of the question, huh? ::sigh::
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 12, 2004 12:08:22 GMT -5
I know you discussed it, I just remembered coming up with this idea when thinking it over myself (while reading some of the original posts). It just seems that Gunwaltz doesn't fit what we're doing here, since what we're looking to create has to do with mathematical calculations and killing people, neither of which have anything to do with dancing... ....unless you're a drugpusher selling Ecstacy to the kids at the local discoteque ;D (lol how mean am I?) Besides, the movements we're going to be doing won't really resemble dancing at all... well a helluva lot less than most other martial arts anyways.
Either way, Gun-fu seems a bit trivial and not really striking...
I take it that I'm the only one (of the two of us anyways) who shares my enthousiasm for 'Gun'.
How about Gunjutsu ? that actually sounds like a real martial art, and not something we just came up with to sound cool... came up with that reading your suggestion.
In case someone don't know, 'Jutsu' is literally translated to 'Art' - but not as in creative arts, more as it's percieved in martial arts. So this would be "The art of the Gun" - or cut out in cardboard for and bent in neon: "The art of using a gun in aggressive relations"
Gunjutsu anyone ?
Of course we could just stick with 'The Gun Katas' as it is in the movie ;D Watched the movie a crapton of times and I'm sure that it's not even referred to as "The Gun Kata" even once. Misconception that is, I'm afraid. So actually we could just stick with what Kurt Wimmer came up with...
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 12, 2004 12:47:59 GMT -5
im not playing down to your idea to call it "gun" but i think for the time being we should have another term since writing "gun" would be confusing in the forums.
-know what im saying?
-gunjitsu sounds cool as hell though.
|
|
|
Post by Preacher on Mar 12, 2004 14:26:15 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 12, 2004 14:52:10 GMT -5
thats a pretty cool flash animation there...
|
|
|
Post by BlackDragon on Mar 14, 2004 9:27:11 GMT -5
Nice animation in did!! All those names are way to cool! But sudenly I end it up thinking.... all the martial arts have their names in the creators native language! So here we have a few countries trying to give a name to "martial art" so what language should it be?? We can chose english which is something like an universal language! But what if we creat a name with language fusion (which U all where allready doing) or we can creat a name using old languages or dead languages like latin (I was thinking in the word gun in latin which I don't know but I will find out... ) Ok maybe I'm just crazy.........
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 14, 2004 15:16:08 GMT -5
i dont think there is a word for gun in latin... there may be something to derive from it but i think latin stopped being the "thing to do" before guns were even around.
::shrugs:: i do like latin though... and i like guns. why not figure something out?
|
|
Zitrix Frost
Sense Offender
'The Angels shed no tears for us'
Posts: 1
|
Post by Zitrix Frost on Mar 14, 2004 16:42:18 GMT -5
ClericWolf... Cleric, i'm new in the resistance, can you tell me where you got that image for your profile?
Zitrix Frost
|
|
|
Post by BlackDragon on Mar 14, 2004 17:28:08 GMT -5
::shrugs:: i do like latin though... and i like guns. why not figure something out? Yeah.. ok so we must study the case carfully!!!!! Oh btw welcome Zitrix Frost!
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Mar 14, 2004 22:43:00 GMT -5
Sadfl;khasdfjklsdfalkhj STUPID OUTLOOK DELETED HALF MY POST!!! …yea so I was working on this post and I had to go so I emailed it to myself, and parts of it got lost…now I found out it’s entirely too long so I have to cut it in half and post twice…I’m about to scare the crap out of all of you with the longer post ever… ::takes a deep breath:: hokay, here goes... First off, welcome esbenf! glad to have you on board! hope to hear from you more often now to reply to everyone's posts...it's gonna sound fragmented because i'm dealing with all of them as i go, so forgive me... We did talk an awful lot about guns, but that was probably because we had a hard time explaining things form-wise, so since it's much easier to talk about in text...we discussed equipment. And while forms (kata) in general ARE more about mindset and routine, gun kata (contrary to popular belief) was not about pure accuracy, at least from what I noticed from watching the film multiple times. you're right that it's about shooting faster and (again to an extent) more accurately than your average opponent while staying out of "the statistically probable trajectories of return fire" (read: moving targets are harder to hit), the cleric was mostly trained to fire at the most damaging, easily target able area of the human body - the chest. I know I’ll get massively flamed for saying what I just said, but you try targeting the head for every single shot while moving around and not always visually sighting a gun. I’m pretty sure you’ll with me, whether you want to or not. now in regards to actually work on kata itself...I thought a few pages WERE about development...I know I put at least 2 or 3 rather long posts about forms and form variations in our previous thread. I’m pretty sure we all agreed on the gun being irrelevant during initial training, but you'd still want to train with something close to what you're going to be using, at least in weight. I’d hate to see a first-level berretta cleric pick up a pair of desert eagles and then expect to accurately perform, without getting winded within the first few movements. Can we say dead in the water? I think only enemies has some serious martial arts training under his belt. I’ve only got a few months of class training, then there were random periods of training in nunchaku, butterfly knives, and some hand to hand here and there. But I do have a good amount of theory in my head, as do most everyone else, so don't worry about the inexperience, everybody has something to offer. I’m sure your gun knowledge will help us immensely. Speaking of which...I feel really stupid for overlooking the USP. While I didn't know it could load multiple calibers, I did know it was highly reliable. I guess it just slipped my mind during candidacy. I still love the five-seven though ;D and it's not that we 'want our own way', per se...it was just debate. We had a lengthy discussion about customization while remaining within guidelines, but we had some talk about personal preference being the bottom line. Doesn’t really matter at this point, just fun to discuss. btw..what finger gun? You’re right, the cleric isn't meant to be like 'the one', but he's also not superman. He’s not really shooting faster than anyone else, just performing more efficiently. That just makes him LOOK like he's faster than everyone else ;D I don't think the gun kata keeps you completely clear of enemy fire...that's impossible. it just increases your chances of survival in a close quarters firefight. truthfully preston could not have gotten out unscathed in the beginning scenes if it wasn't hollywoodism...it's just impossible with him standing there, AND with them returning fire after HE started returning fire...in the same spot. y'know? Geometrical distribution is just a fancy way of saying optimized combat, shortest line between two places. Just like wing chun, no? I do agree about kill before getting killed though, but that should apply in any combat situation. But the katas are NOT enabling you to dodge bullets in the strictest sense...just teaches you to avoid them. trustkill, I forget where I saw the ones I wanted, but gungfu.com sells one. In regards to your idea...maybe we can throw some kind of weight inside the springers? It may render them useless until the weights are removed, but it's a thought...weight training! I still say leave the ammo as 'standard issue' and work it out when the time actually comes. About enemies' arm placement chart...that kinda confused the hell outta me...^_^; Your smooth arc comment was kind of what I was thinking of in terms of recoil usage...there's no other way to use it otherwise. You hold some good points though. I just thought of recoil as an integral part of firearms martial arts, impossible to separate...guess we had a different view on that. esben's comment on utilizing recoil technique to increase centrifugal force and in turn rate of fire is quite interesting too. But I’d consider that an advanced technique. I also find it funny that I just gave that a really technical name after debunking the other technical name into plain english...as for a recoil-based kata, check above for what i have to say about recoil, but in light of what you and I have just said about recoil-based speed forms, THAT would be an advanced form. Recoil, in my opinion, cannot be excluded from any form, no matter what. tai chi is a good example of redirecting energy, but I can't picture practicing any kind of firearms forms tai chi style...wanna try recoil dynamics in slow mo after firing? ;D the executioner from that flash vid comes to mind... that vid amuses the hell out of me. I’d give anyone credit if they can pull off winged faith flawlessly. and probably hang up my own weapons. gah, more debate on what martial art(s) gun kata came from. Did no one read anything on gun kata? He just looked at martial arts in general; I think he did look more specifically at chinese martial arts though. Which arts are kind of irrelevant since all borrow from the other anyway. Conditioning the mind is not specific to tai chi, although it is paramount to it. If your mind isn't prepared for combat, you're lost in any style. Tai chi does sound like a good start for slow-learning the forms though, but did you really need tai chi to realize you should learn it slowly? Heh, Pilates for firearms martial arts...in regards to styles, check the old thread again. I had a HUGE post on that, and there were only like 4 or 5 styles in there. I’m still quite interested in designing a melee firearms form, for handguns, rifles. And a knife-gun form. I’m well aware of gunkatta.com's mantis form, and it's what got me thinkin about gun-knife form (I hate saying kata), but I didn't like his execution of it. End stance was entirely unnecessary and left him WAY open for attack. Not to mention the attacks are poor. But the idea is interesting. his gun kata cg sequence though is god-awful. It doesn't make any sense! And it too leaves you TOO open for attack. It’s just too artsy for me. It’s like wushu gun kata (I fear for ultraviolet). I have to flame you and say that gun kata was NOT just about shooting the other guys and not getting hit yourself. And while you can borrow from multiple styles to create your form, it's impossible to create a single ultimate form. Then there's the issue of different weapons. You can't perform handgun kata with a rifle, and single firearm will certainly be different from duals. There’s also regional differentiations, which in our cases would just be ourselves interpreting something differently, or doing something the rest don't. But you already understood that part. Undeniably though, the very first kata would probably be the same throughout. Nobody invented kung fu; they just coined a term for a formalized way of learning what was already out there. Even if it wasn't around, and he was where he was, he would've come up with something. JKD is a derivative of wing chun, which was an offshoot of traditional kung fu anyway. Then there's the filipino martial arts he borrowed from too, and the list goes on...
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Mar 14, 2004 22:43:24 GMT -5
The infinity...:: drools::...looks heavy as hell though, I’d love to try it! Cougar looks like a beast as well, what's different about it from the standard berretta? Trust, did you ever find that body positioning paper? Even if it's disorganized, send it to me and let me see if i can make any sense out of it. I’d like to check it out. in regards to laser sights...why? You’ll never sight them! Well, I suppose it could come in handy for on the fly quick-sighting. Personally I wouldn't because it seems pointless to me. The cleric is a short to mid-range gunfighter with specialization in close-quarters firearms combat, projectile and melee. That’s what it seems like at least, and I think we kinda settled on that in the previous thread. Damn we need that thread back...or we need to finalize it into an HTML file. Anyways, the cleric is supposed to be sent in AFTER the initial sweepers, since they are the super sweepers. So I guess the sequence would be snipers (if ever necessary...), sweepers, clerics, conflagration units (burners), and evidentiary teams in terms of movie sequence. now for the name...the only reason I didn't pick any of the names you guys threw around was because I thought we'd look pretty silly with a half-english half-japanese/chinese/korean style name, and that wouldn't help the fact that 95% of all martial artists will not respect us in the first place for utilizing a firearm in a martial art. i coined gun waltz because martial arts and fighting is like deadly dance, and martial arts is all about flow and finesse in movements. Many kung fu styles emphasize grace, so if you think about it it makes perfect sense. Plus you're moving all over the place anyhow, do you wanna call it CAP-oeira? (*ba-dum-boosh!* *gets hit with tomatoes and rubber bullets*) calling it just gun seems too redundant, and doesn't demand respect...rather it demands respect of the weapon, but not of the practitioner. We decided for simple reasons that it cannot be called gun kata in the previous thread, so I’m not repeating that. I had thought about gun-do, but i wouldn't because for one it's mixing english and japanese and two "the way of the gun" kinda hints that the gun is in control of you...but that's probly just me. As for latin, as soon as you can come up with a proper figurative word for gun we'll see how it works... Could you imagine a paintball-specific gun kata? Using the pball loader as a rotating point around someone's arm while you duck under and spin the gun around the arm, grab and fire? Dodging paintballs while returning fire to multiple targets? They’d call you insane and ban you from tournaments
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 15, 2004 2:07:12 GMT -5
Ehm, first of all - I never meant to go digging up all those old and over-debated subjects. Most of the time I was just informing about what had already been explained in previous posts (since I have read them, believe it or not, and most of the material on the site / linkes sites about the movie as well). About some of them though, all I wanted to do was offer my thoughts on them, so that people could think about it (since most of the things were never decided upon). I suppose I was kinda asking for that anyways, but I must say Rymel that I agree with like 90% of your post, so I think you misunderstood me somewhere along the line All the technicalities with which styles are derived from where I don't really care about... JKD being wing chun, okay, I didn't know that... never read about it really, just knew it was derived from kung-fu... I did know that nobody 'invented' kung fu per se, but still someone must have taken down the thing, and if that hadn't been done JKD wouldn't have been what we know it as today, that's all I'm saying. What I should have said: "If noone had already created unarmed martial arts, Bruce Lee would have had a hard time developing Jeet Kune Do" - since that's what we're talking here - noone has invented a real 'gun-martial art' before. There has been things that resemble it from the US Seals, and I also read something in a previous post about something from Israel (don't know that one)... But if noone develops the basics, it's going to be MUCH harder to work out a 'specificically specialised style' (like mantis-style, or drunken gun katas... now there's a thought for you ). All you said about gun katas not being convertable to other weapons, I already know that & agree, that's very self-explanatory. I must however agree here with what TrustKill said back in the days of the old post; "why can't you just be proficient with other weapons?". I am not a big fan of making 10 katas, just in case you stumble upon a SMG in the middle of a gunfight - I'd rather stick with what you know you have (=your handguns). 100% agree that the maitis style gun kata from gunkatta.com was kinda miserable - although the idea is valid. But the execution wasn't great, and the final stance is just plain show-off, like the end stance in EQ's 'puppy-protection' scene (the yin-yang thing) - not at all useful. The knife-thing is however not something I specifically want to get too much into - I'd rather work on using the guns, since it's HIGHLY unlikely that anyone'll ever find himself in a gunbattle where 30-38 bullets aren't enough to dispatch all the enemies Oh yeah and Preacher; total props for mentioning the Infinity - I'd really like to know what the caliber is though, since I couldn't find it on the WA site or anywhere else for that matter Rymel, it is heavy - if memory serves, it's very close to 1 kg, which is a bit much, even if it isn't quite Deagle-size. But that on the other hand helps when using them for bludgeoning And now the the philosophical part: The Gun Katas, once fully developed, should statistically improve our odds of taking out enemies while not getting hit in a gunfight... So far we agree. Looking at the short 'training demo' they show in the movie, the one where the angles of the cleric's arm (gun) in relation to his body & adversary is shown all the time as he takes up new stances, I do actually think it's about in each 'situation' making the kata to actually fit with the statistical probability of which of the antagonists will fire at you first, and then taking that guy out next, while avoiding the bullets from the second guy to fire, keep repeating that till you are the victor... or dead I don't AT ALL think that the cleric should go for the head all the time, not even once in a while (unless it's only 1-2 adversaries, and you have proper time to aim etc.... special circumstances) - always go for quickly inflicting maximum damage - but not at the cost of reliability! If you don't hit the other guys every second time you fire, you won't stay alive for very long at all. In order to stay alive, you HAVE to be able to take out at least 1-2 people before anyone returns fire properly ("spraying" doesn't take preperation and is like 90% unpredictable, and hence cannot be compensated for) -that is unless you're wearing a 2-inch thick metal suit Thanks for pointing out to me that he's just working more efficiently, I wasn't really thinking of it like that, even though that was esentially what I was working with. Final note about the gun: I agree that everyone should just go with what they're comfortable with... but I think there should be some basic demands for the weapons, like nothing higher than .45 cal (due to recoil & clip size). Just an idea though. I'm going to go with the USP Expert myself, since it's got less recoil than a beretta and about the same stats otherwise. As for the 5-7 I won't really consider it, since it's barrel is too short to fit as a cleric sidearm imo - on another note the clip of 14 is just shy of what I'll consider a comfortable ammo load for any battle. Okay, and now for the actual non-useless stuff ;D Using the recoil is going to be very advanced technique - to begin with I believe we'll just have to 'compensate' for it in every kata, not actually use it. It varies from gun to gun, but generally the kick held by a firearm used in 1 hand is enough to hurt you if you fire it without your wrist & hand 100% aligned - which means that in order to direct my movement (and speed it up, or ease it), I'll have to move my whole arm around so that it fits with the direction I want to move next - which in return is more or less impossible, at least untill we've got some basics down and working
|
|
|
Post by EsbenF on Mar 15, 2004 2:19:20 GMT -5
I got an idea... it appears we're all thinking in slightly different directions here, and the discussion isn't really leading to anything else than refining ideas... What would you guys say if I suggest working on this in a more structured manner? Actually doing some project-organisation here might help the work a lot. At least to get things started, defining an idea & goal might be what we're missing to actually launch us into this thing, just so that we can coordinate our efforts to work on exactly the same thing. I'd suggest we each write down what we think we're working towards here, the basic concepts and ideals (nothing technical, just 'what will we end up with?'-kinda stuff). Half a page or so should do (from each), then we can work on making them all into 1, and each work from that point. As a brilliant song states: "You know where it ends, yo It usually depends on where you start" You guys up for it?
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Mar 15, 2004 9:41:26 GMT -5
a couple of answers for a couple of questions...
-rymel... the cougar fires .40 cal ammo, has a closed top slide and is slightly smaller than the 92 series. plus i just like the way it is ergonomically designed. looks like it would fit your hand really well. or at least my hand...
-esben... the Infinity series is actually made by a company called "strayer voigt". all the infinity guns are based off of Colt 1911 pistols or springfield variants, etc. all of them (as far as i know) are chambered for .45 cal.
-as for a more organized means of development, i am all for it as long as we can get stuff done (myself included). i have a tendency to get sidetracked pretty easily and when you combine that with the fact that i do most of my posting from my office, things get a little hectic around here sometimes. maybe we should just fill our plates w/ one aspect to work on at one time in order to avoid me (and possibly others) from being bounced around like an air hockey puck. plus it would help to stimulate some more in detail discussion about specific things instead of just the overall concept.
-the only thing that i can see being an issue (normally the only ones that grace the gun kata pages are, well... us. the ones that want to make it work) is when people who dont read previous posts and who think they know something special come in and talk about things that are totally redudant in the "development thread". that might throw off our rhythm somewhat as well at totally piss me off. we dont need anyone else who is a self-proclaimed "gun expert" coming and telling us that they thing the clerics use beretta 93r's and such. for those situations i offer up a proposal that we swiftly execute the offender with brutal force... or at least just make fun of them until they cry ::wink::
|
|