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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 20, 2004 1:09:20 GMT -5
sounds good man, we couldnt play on sunday cause it snowed here! next sunday its on though!
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Post by Rymel on Jan 20, 2004 3:47:53 GMT -5
hey, wolf! glad to see you're still around! lurking to see what develops, eh? what do you think so far, oh mighty cleric of the pen? ;D
jon, maybe there is some force, i've never used one so i can't say anything. but front ejecting weapons are looking pretty good now...so's that G-11...mmm...caseless ammo...
trustkill - sorry, lol. that's a good idea, i didn't think of that. my idea was if the weapon is being swung horizontally for the feint strike, like a hook, the opponent would probably back away and duck his head down. now assuming the cleric is devoting his entire body to the swing, and his other arm is coming up as a guard for any possible strikes, the upcoming hand can intercept the path of the hooking pistol and pull the slide, ejecting the round. the cleric can then spin in the direction of the swinging arm, redirecting the strike in the other direction while winding up more power for striking an adjacent opponent. he can then return to strike the recovering opponent in either direction now.
if he were to perform the feint by firing, an opponent behind or near him would be required. there is also the off chance that hearing the gunshot instead of the strike would alert him to the lack of strike. but more likely it would add to the effect of the feint in addition to the shell. another issue is the redirection of energy caused from firing. depending on the angle fired, this now changes the type of strike available next. but i like the suggestion, and i'll work on incorporating that into my theory. it's understandable you want to conserve ammo, but sometimes there's that one moment where that may not matter, y'know? besides he can always pick up a weapon from a fallen opponent of need be...
also, can you send me the diagrams you made? i'd like to see them. i'd also like to know what other rounds are available for 9mm weapons other than hollow points and parabellums. do they make high velocity rounds or other types of more powerful rounds? or any kind of non-standard rounds?
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 20, 2004 9:49:41 GMT -5
well... technically you can make any kind of round you want. just get a loader and a whole bunch of powder.
-HV ammo for 9mm... im not sure. i know there is a gun, the browning Hi-Power that fires 9mm ammo. im not sure if the "high power" comes specifically from a different kind of ammo or from some sort of force redirection developed in the weapons themselves.
-i know they produced some ammo for most caliber handguns a while back that was dubbed "cop-killer" ammo. i think they were marketed as eagle talons or black talons or something like that. similar to hollow points, only they were scored on the inside and serrated. once they struck your body, they would actually fold inside out and looked a lot like pieces of shrapnel or caltrops combined w/ shuriken. the report i remember was that the rounds actually would tear 2 inches of flesh every time you moved after it was inside you. nasty nasty things... ill do some more ammo homework today.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jan 20, 2004 9:50:21 GMT -5
I offer one idea and thought, a form of advice, remember not to overcomplicate things.
Keep it nice and simple and don't go too far designing various forms for all the weapons.
Pick one thing and develop it, then move on, when you're satisfied.
Do not get bogged down in details, a Kata works because it's the quickest and simplest route between two points.
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 20, 2004 10:13:38 GMT -5
more on the black talon rounds...
"This is where the police only Winchester Ranger Talon (formerly Black Talon and Ranger SXT) bullet departs from conventional expanding hollowpoint bullets. Ranger Talon adds an additional wounding mechanism: cutting."
"When Ranger Talon expands, its copper jacket peels back to form six sharp claws. These claws protrude outward just slightly beyond the smooth outer edges of the mushroom-shaped lead core shoulder."
"Upon impact with flesh Ranger Talon performs identical to conventional hollowpoint bullets. However, as it penetrates and slows it does not suffer a decrease in effective bullet diameter. This is because tissue that stretches and flows around the smooth shoulder of the mushroom-shaped lead core comes into contact with the sharp copper jacket claws and is lacerated."
i found this in some concealed carry article. the report goes on to say that the effects of the bullets are much less than i originally described. they only increase incapacitation ratios by about 8 or 10%. oh well, they still penetrate body armor more effectively. not as effectively as FiveSeveN ammo though... ::wink::
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Jan 20, 2004 15:46:21 GMT -5
trust - good stuff good stuff. kinda makes you wonder though. what if the hollow point concept could be used for a smaller kinetic firing mechanism inside the bullet? sure a vest may stop the hollow point, but if a flechette was fired from the point after impact, it would probably go through.
wolf - we're sticking with handgun kata right now, the rest was merely discussion and application. i don't think we have enough for a set kata though, modified movie kata aside. your recommendations are much appreciated, however.
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 20, 2004 16:07:59 GMT -5
heres one for you, rymel... its called the 224-BOZ project. -they necked down 10mm (.40 cal) shells to hold NATO .223 bullets. they modified several kinds of weapons for this, including some glock pistols. heres a pic. EDIT: as you can see, its not really that much bigger than a 9mm round. -as for flechettes... i dunno about those things. there were some projects surrounding those back in the 70's. search for the ACR project for more info. they were trying to standardize american rifles for flechettes. ::shudders:: they are mean, mean, mean. literally carved paths through their victims to the point that sometimes, if a target was shot in the shoulder, the round would exit from places like the knee or the base of the spine. flechettes dont squash like bullets do (if you want a demonstration of this, take one of those rubber pool torpedoes and throw it into the water really fast. that is the sort of irratic path flechettes take.) -that and their ballistics were unpredictable due to the use of sabots and the fins on the flechettes themselves makes them susceptable to wind conditions more so than regular rounds. they are really powerful though, and the range is really good. -TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Jan 20, 2004 16:33:11 GMT -5
thanks. i don't know much about ballistics though, how much more powerful are the 224-BOZ rounds? are the modified weapons, much less the ammo available?
i love flechettes for their sheer power despite their minor drawbacks. i say minor because they can be simply overlooked when you look at the pros. i don't think they should ever be used as a standard issue rifle at all, since it wouldn't be able to pierce certain things after a certain range. i didn't know it was the ACR project that was doing that though, that's weird. i loved flechettes because they don't impact somebody, they slice right through them. actually maybe swim would be the better word, the slice is effortless to it. the fact that they're smaller than a .22 makes for even worse rebound throughout the body, making the round even deadlier. and speaking of rubber pool torpedoes...israel considered using some flechette mortars a few months back. THOSE were nasty. made of rubber and fin stabilized, 1,000 flechettes per mortar. and we gave it to them. i hope to never be on the receiving end of THAT ::shudders::
i'd personally only use flechettes in personal defense weapons and shotguns. they just seem made for shotguns...
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 20, 2004 16:47:05 GMT -5
if my memory serves me correctly, the 224-BOZ weapons were in testing phases in the early/mid 90's (hence the glock being used). it didnt really catch on all that well due to horrendous recoil. they had similar ballistics and penetration to a .223 apparently. -they had to make extended barrels and reinforced internals to cope with the added pressures of the rounds. -apparently you can modify any .40 cal firearm to fire the rounds, and with enough skill, the shells can be necked down and loaded with handmade rounds. -TrustKill-
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 20, 2004 16:51:50 GMT -5
just read this...
-the highest normal pistol velocity is approx 1500 fps.
-a 10mm .224-BOZ round fires at 2265 fps. not a bad increase.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Jan 20, 2004 17:13:19 GMT -5
hrm...extended barrels...with training one could possible cope with the recoil, although how much i can't say...and a barrel weight and compensator can cover up the extension pretty well...that smidge extra range isn't bad either...;D
the only problem i see with that is learning to neck down the rounds yourself, and making sure they're reliable. i guess we're sticking with berettas, although this is a very good candidate for one of those customized sidearms for practitioner efficiency...
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jan 21, 2004 6:46:33 GMT -5
You're welcome Rymel, I come from the school of thought that advocates quickness, and simplicity.
Have you checked out gunkata.com yet?
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Post by Rymel on Jan 21, 2004 13:30:45 GMT -5
yea, but his 3D gun kata is really inconsistent, and he won't answer questions via email about them. it's a good basis though, and where i got the idea for mantis style.
i'm not sure i can say what my school of thought is. i guess true improvisation and power and speed through optimal body mechanics, if that counts at all.
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 21, 2004 15:40:03 GMT -5
if someone out there can make me some 3d figures im pretty sure i can make a more consistent kata, and one thats more routine and easy to practice... any ideas?
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 21, 2004 15:41:42 GMT -5
IKeep it nice and simple and don't go too far designing various forms for all the weapons. Pick one thing and develop it, then move on, when you're satisfied. Do not get bogged down in details, a Kata works because it's the quickest and simplest route between two points. i agree 110%
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jan 21, 2004 16:38:38 GMT -5
I wasn't all that impressed with gunkatta.com myself either, but then again, I'm a real stickler for katas...after having them driven into my brain for many many years when I studied Higashi Karate in the Midlands.
In the end, I took what I wanted from numerous styles and made my own improvisations, which I always believe are the true roots of the Art, I mean that's how they pretty much got started (see earlier comments)
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 21, 2004 16:56:34 GMT -5
yeah, from my study of iado, and kendo, im a stickler as well. Simplicty and having different levels of the kata is important.
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Post by Rymel on Jan 22, 2004 0:28:52 GMT -5
i'm not really a stickler, although i love trying new forms. not a stickler cuz i guess i'm more grassroots about the whole thing, i believe if they made the kata from theory and experimentation, why can't i? nothing wrong with the existing stuff though, of course.
i can picture myself in the future causing all sorts of trouble with my philosophical outlook on life... ;D
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jan 22, 2004 8:24:41 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with making it up from the available data and extrapolating, Rymel, that's the best thing about it. Just make sure you make it simple to begin with, you can always add new innovations and complexities when the core's down
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Post by teemu on Jan 22, 2004 8:32:50 GMT -5
heheh, that was an extra credit question on some history final i had a couple of years back... "who invented kung-fu?" -i think 90% of the class said it was the samurai or the japanese, etc. i got it right, i did, i did! the shaolin of ASIA, not japan. if you go for the place of birth - a indian buddhisitic monch invented kung fu - en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kung_Fu
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 22, 2004 16:15:54 GMT -5
okay...
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Jan 22, 2004 16:21:02 GMT -5
an indian monk may have created the original exercises, but he did it when he went to china. it also wasn't kung fu until they extrapolated on it, as wolf suggested i do ;D
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 23, 2004 0:19:59 GMT -5
hey, just to let ya'll know
i have put together a routine aka kata
as soon as i can have someone draw it up, ill post it
hows the charts coming trustkill?
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 23, 2004 9:57:19 GMT -5
^^^monday, monday MONDAY...
-i think i should have a decent set by then. ill scan them during the work day then, and hopefully get someone to either host them on a site somewhere, or ill just email them off to both you and rymel.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 23, 2004 12:39:52 GMT -5
sounds good to me bro
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Post by Rymel on Jan 25, 2004 2:17:03 GMT -5
w00t, i got my cable back ;D i watched the movie again, and thought a bit about what wolf and i had said about gunkatta.com (why didn't he spell it RIGHT?)...and i was thinkin, maybe i could make the movie kata out of what we see from the movie and fill in the gaps via gunkatta.com's workable parts and my own improvisaiton. i might since my friend's digicam has a video function. he's gonna make fun of me endlessly about it afterwards though, but it's all good... and if i do go ahead with that, please bear with my horrible form...i know i suck
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 25, 2004 16:58:52 GMT -5
hey go for it, ! i should do that too, im busy and lazy at the same time, if you can understand that
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 29, 2004 11:55:16 GMT -5
where is everyone?
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Post by Rymel on Jan 29, 2004 18:59:03 GMT -5
...eheheh...it's been really, really cold lately, and it's made me lethargic...i need a gun kata whoopin' to get back to work! oh yea and school just started again today, so i have no idea what kind of impact it'll have on development...
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jan 29, 2004 19:18:33 GMT -5
I've been away at various business meetings.
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