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Post by Rymel on Dec 29, 2003 16:40:18 GMT -5
i discussed the idea to a couple of friends. came to the conclusion you can't call it gun kata as an art because the gun kata is just that, the gun kata. came up with two ideas: gun-fu (cyberpunk2020 reference) and gunwaltz. they also decided that i (note not we) should work on the idea further since i had a pretty good idea of what i wanted. and then i realized that everyone else on this board wanted to do it as well, and it got me thinking - even if we share our ideas, some will definitely be used more than others, and some may not be used at all or kept for our respective 'school', like real martial arts. the basis would be similar but then there would be difference in styles, so to speak. chin na oriented (locks and joint manipulation), melee specialists, wushu related, you know what i mean. or maybe even just location-different. very OT but i spin glowsticks, and the differences between east, west, midwest and south are distinct enough to separate. that could be true here, if it ever comes to be. so who wants to seriously develop a style? =)
i know it's probly been discussed endlessly here, but every time i came back to check, i never saw anything about actual experimentation and practice. not to mention development since you never saw an entire form. anyone?
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 29, 2003 17:05:15 GMT -5
sounds like a good idea...
-the only real basis i have in any sort of combat is a affinity in CQB and some slight japanese sword training. other than that, i pack only my analytical mind.
-ill be willing to help out however i can.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Dec 29, 2003 17:25:03 GMT -5
CQB? what's that? i think the japanese sword training is kind of a farce for a nazi-esque setting as the movie, they just put it in for show. but again that would be a style variation, not really necessary. purists would consider it a disgrace to the sword anyway but systems borrow from other systems anyway, in some form or another. especially new ones, so whatever. im me sometime RYMEL4
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 29, 2003 21:48:17 GMT -5
Close Quarters Battle
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Post by Rymel on Dec 29, 2003 22:15:51 GMT -5
that's what i thought it was...
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 13:34:24 GMT -5
yeah... they just put the katana in there because its the greatest edged weapon ever. EVER!
-TrustKill-
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Post by JenGe on Dec 30, 2003 14:33:07 GMT -5
CQB? what's that? i think the japanese sword training is kind of a farce for a nazi-esque setting as the movie, they just put it in for show. Actually Wimmer stated the following... "The Grammaton Cleric is an order that is very spare - they take the shortest distance between two points and I think they like to optimize their efficiency in any given situation and they did their research and figured the gunkata was the best thing to do ... the gunkata is the focus of the Grammaton Cleric's techniques, but they are clearly versed in other things including swordfighting ... They can pretty much use anything that comes into their sphere of influence, because from birth they're trained in a Cleric monastery to be warriors."From CHUD.com Interview... www.chud.com/news/dec02/dec02eq.php3
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 14:54:31 GMT -5
Warrior Monks...got to love them.
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Post by JenGe on Dec 30, 2003 15:19:01 GMT -5
Warrior Monks...got to love them. You might like this then too but then the thought might hurt too much... ;D (if you haven't already found it) "What I based the Grammaton Clerics on was sort of a cross-section of a number of the aesthetic warriorhoods that existed throughout history like the mamluks who were slave warriors and were often castrated, which is not to say they felt nothing, but there were certainly some things they didn't feel. They certainly had an altered emotional state and they Knights Templar, the Teutonic knights – you know, people who had taken an aesthetic religious vow and are really, purely "Warriors of God." Most relevantly, of course, are the samurai and their Bushido code. Obviously, the samurai were required at a moment's notice to commit seppuku if the shogun ordered it and in order to do that, you have to have a certain dispassionate take, I believe, on the material world. You'd have to assume that these people looked at their weapons as essential and integral tools of the trade.Same interview... www.chud.com/news/dec02/dec02eq.php3
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 15:24:03 GMT -5
You might like this then too but then the thought might hurt too much... ;D (if you haven't already found it) "What I based the Grammaton Clerics on was sort of a cross-section of a number of the aesthetic warriorhoods that existed throughout history like the mamluks who were slave warriors and were often castrated, which is not to say they felt nothing, but there were certainly some things they didn't feel. They certainly had an altered emotional state and they Knights Templar, the Teutonic knights – you know, people who had taken an aesthetic religious vow and are really, purely "Warriors of God." Most relevantly, of course, are the samurai and their Bushido code. Obviously, the samurai were required at a moment's notice to commit seppuku if the shogun ordered it and in order to do that, you have to have a certain dispassionate take, I believe, on the material world. You'd have to assume that these people looked at their weapons as essential and integral tools of the trade.Same interview... www.chud.com/news/dec02/dec02eq.php3Now you see why I love you Jen, in a purely lupine manner and why I also love Kurt Wimmer and his visions!
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Post by JenGe on Dec 30, 2003 15:30:49 GMT -5
Now you see why I love you Jen, in a purely lupine manner and why I also love Kurt Wimmer and his visions! Thanks!! This really is the best interview out there with Wimmer yet. Its a two parter & I highly recommend it in understanding Equilibrium if you haven't read it already. I've got it saved on my hard drive & have a hard copy of it as well...(not obsessed am I?? ;D)
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 15:37:17 GMT -5
Thanks!! This really is the best interview out there with Wimmer yet. Its a two parter & I highly recommend it in understanding Equilibrium if you haven't read it already. I've got it saved on my hard drive & have a hard copy of it as well...(not obsessed am I?? ;D) Heh, not at all, very good interview...gets my vote, I should show you some of the design documentation I did for my own order of Warrior Monks on Ashirion.
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Post by Rymel on Dec 30, 2003 16:09:25 GMT -5
haha, i read that interview, jen. great interview indeed! and very good points. but you notice how he doesn't mention kung fu at all, but very clearly uses stick hands for the final gunfight? kinda sad how 'martial arts' is mainly japanese to people nowadays...even the word kung fu is japanese to some people...go fig o.0
edit: just by chance....anybody from around nyc?
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Post by JenGe on Dec 30, 2003 16:16:03 GMT -5
... but very clearly uses stick hands for the final gunfight? Its an actual technique called "hand trapping." Wimmer just added the guns. (see DVD commentary)
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 16:17:43 GMT -5
heheh, that was an extra credit question on some history final i had a couple of years back...
"who invented kung-fu?"
-i think 90% of the class said it was the samurai or the japanese, etc. i got it right, i did, i did! the shaolin of ASIA, not japan.
-sadly people do, as you said, automatically pertain martial arts to the japanese. why? probably because of the media. we have so many japanese cartoons that glorify lots of different kinds of martial arts but dont say where they are specifically from. people probably just assume that they are japanese. granted, the japanese are really cool...
-anyway, back to normal discussion... after much thought of this starting a gun kata system, it will be incredibly difficult to even begin a working system as martial arts is. starting your own system takes years and years, as im sure you are aware. and the gun kata we may come up with may be nothing like the gun kata people will expect. either way, im willing to put a head in for the greater good.
-email me at cloudzero13@yahoo.com
-another point is brought up... who is going to be the person/persons to field test our system? sure as hell isnt going to be me twisting and dodging gunfire the first time out of the gate. hehehe.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 16:21:12 GMT -5
Got to love the Shaolin, inventers of a form of defence that firstly combined the study of animal attacks/defences and movements. with improvised weapon techniques. Most of the weapons that are used in Kung Fu are pretty much farm impliments that they used straight from the box so to speak, or modified.
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 16:28:27 GMT -5
that sounds cool.
-sadly, i dont know that much about chinese or other asian martial arts. i do have an extreme interest in eastern history so i eat that stuff up. my friend up at Boston University took a course about the philosophy of the samurai. i was really jealous. it made me want to eat a frisbee...
-TrustKill-
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 16:35:35 GMT -5
I prefer out of all the arts, anything to do with Kung Fu...Karate...I gained a loathing of.
There is much more grace in Kung Fu than Karate, to me, Karate is a breaking and brutal style.
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 16:41:11 GMT -5
ive seen a fair share of karate, and i have to agree w/ wolf.
-too much choppiness(no pun intended) in the movements of karate.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Dec 30, 2003 16:44:12 GMT -5
jen - sorry, that was a typo ^_^; i meant to say sticky hands, which is also known as hand trapping. came from wing chun, which it seems to me gun kata would be pretty well suited for. trustkill - remember back in the day when everyone just assumed martial arts were chinese? it's funny how that flipped around now... now, about the system...development is both serious and for fun, so i could really care less if it took years to develop, y'know? it's just the fact that we could quite possibly come out with something tangible that makes it worth trying for. so don't tread on my dreams ;D j/k j/k and i expect that the system will turn out to be different, especially if people from different parts of the world do it on their own. hey, that's how martial arts developed in the first place, didn't it? i don't know about the firing aspects of the art, but i'm aiming to develop the melee portions heavily, as well as locks and joint manipulation. i gotta get my hands on some replica weapons (although since it's strangely cheaper to get REAL weapons, i may just buy real ones and remove the firing pins and spray paint them some funky color to prove fake) and work on it. right now i'd like to build up the handgun melee combat system to a level where it can be a complete system. as for live fire practice, i've got a few ideas: 1 - 'laser tag' retrofitted replica/BB gun weapons and a sensor suit. i've yet to figure out how to acquire the suit, or how to make one that can withstand impact from falls and such (electronics are so sensitive...), so this isn't really a feasible option. 2 - i call this the cleric's chamber. basically it's a room with 12 points, like a clock, and 2 sensor panels per point; one chest level, one above head. referred to as high and low. it's basically still the laser tag concept. i was thinkin someone could fire off points to hit with the guns (ie: 12high, 6low; 3high-low; etc), which each have their own frequency so you'll know which gun hit what sensor, which the announcer calling off points one move ahead. delay or a wrong move would result in the panel 'firing' back and you're 'dead'. that or the panels could light up or make a sound, but i don't know about that yet. the chamber's future modificaitons would be popup melee dummies with the practitioner at the center of the chamber so they pop up surrounding him. the practitioner would then switch to melee combat, be this with the guns still pistol-grip or barrel-grip, and the dummies would be either freefight or light-up sequences. further modification would involve linking this to a computer so you could keep track of the hits and possibly ramp up difficulty on the fly. i think this is a very good idea that could be done, but what do you guys think? 3 - PAINTBALL! handgun only, with modified longer clips, or clerics and guards. would definitely be interesting, to say the least! so trustkill..you wanted realultimatepower? RUP seppoku? lol wolf, i love japanese arts as well, but i'm chinese and grew up with the movies, so most of my influences will be chinese. and i think only in okinawan karate the initial weapons were farm implements. most of the weapons in kung fu came about as necessity because when they started getting attacked they need to know how to use and defend against such weapons. i honestly don't know where the three sectional staff came from though ;D kung fu was meant to have flow, because they started from animals, which were very graceful. i think karate's more power based..
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 16:53:04 GMT -5
Like I said, I prefer the Chinese Martial Arts more than the Japanese.
The only decent thing is the Katana, the most sweet sword ever created.
Most weapons of the temples were farm impliments, like rice flails and things like that.
It was when certain factions discovered that the Shaolin etc used to have lots of gold in their temples, they came under attack, so they developed a defence that had never been seen before.
One which I continue to think, is the cornerstone of grace and ability.
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 16:54:58 GMT -5
im not trying to tread on your dreams. quite the opposite. i think it would be a very fun project, even if nothing practical comes out of it.
-laser tag would work pretty well, although a lot of the equipment available have sensors that get set off even if you are in the vicinity of them. its hard to judge accuracy. i have messed around with laser tag/laser challenge equipment since i was like 12. as far as realism goes, airsoft springer guns can be purchased for not too much more than 20 dollars or so a piece. that way you could not only get a decent feel for the weapons you would be using, but also practice with the actual processes of reloading those pistols and manipulating both the safeties and the slide lock levers. yeah, they arent semi-auto, but you can still practice pulling the trigger when you are supposed to.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 17:06:51 GMT -5
IMHO Airsoft would be better, but my key feature would be safety...first and foremost.
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Post by Rymel on Dec 30, 2003 17:12:38 GMT -5
oh hell yea, i love the japanese method of sword making. their method and their art are their specialty, so it's gotta be the best sword ever ;D
i think i remember rice flails, but it's a lesser known weapon nowadays. japanese style nunchaku is more popular now. the bo is undeniably an impromptu weapon. probably started from those sticks they used for carrying large buckets of whatever on each side. thanks for the clarification on the weapons development btw. and i agree with the cornerstone comment, but i've yet to see martial arts systems from other countries other than the main ones. like south american combat styles, or israeli krav maga.
and trustkill, i was just kidding...i just felt it a good time to use that line, heh. and in regards to laser tag equipment, i have some schematics for basic homebuilt laser tag circuits, so we could work off that. i like the idea for airsoft guns, i didn't know they were so cheap! too bad they don't have semi or full auto modes though :\
i know the idea of using real guns sounds dangerous, but if i actually GOT them they'd be missing the very things that MAKE them dangerous - bullets and the firing pin. even if someone got the bright idea to load them, they wouldn't be able to fire. i also considered wimmer's idea of modifying them to use strobes, but i'd have to find out how first.
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 17:17:35 GMT -5
i know you were kidding, but i wasnt about it being exciting...
-yeah, springers are cheap and pretty decent. you can get ones called EBB (electronic blowbacks) for roughly similar price to springers that are semi auto. the difference being in the slide not locking back, so that mechanism is non-functional and the magazines are thin little sticks to make room for the AA batteries they use. they dont shoot hard so they are pretty safe, but if realism is a factor to you as well as price, then springers are probably the way to go.
-you could get gas blowbacks if you had money flowing out of your pockets. a couple of those will set you back at least 100 dollars depending on make and model. they would be the most accurate next to blank firing real steel weapons...
-laser tag equipment is good, but just as you said... electronics are so fragile.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Dec 30, 2003 17:19:39 GMT -5
thanks for the info, i'll look into it.
if i use the chamber idea, the electronics being fragile won't really be an issue, other than the popup dummies. is the chamber an idea worth following?
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 17:26:11 GMT -5
it sounds like a good one, though expensive... yeah, look into it.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 17:28:19 GMT -5
It's an interesting idea, the chamber...
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 17:31:02 GMT -5
you could combine that idea of the room with the strobes and put strobes at each of the points to signify which is attacking at what time. that makes things more complex, but its a good way to make a visual reference for the trainee.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Dec 30, 2003 17:32:21 GMT -5
thanks, i was thinking about the 36 chambers of kung fu, although i'm still not sure if that was ever real or a story (maybe 50-50), and then i thought of equilibirium, and the scene where he was practicing with a katana, and it hit me - maybe they trained in a chamber with live ammunition too? so i brainstormed and that's what i came up with. going on the whole chambers idea i came up with a few different ways to exercise technique and improvisation too, but nothing concrete yet.
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