Gun kata development (i know, old, but yea)

[Cleric Enemies]

trust kill. this is what you can do that would help a lot.
taking the charts im posting, set up scenarios like you said with different opponents. number one would be the user standing at "ease" with multiple opponents around him. chart 2 would be the user getting into combat position. the third which im posting now is a basic firing position based on targets directly in front of you

www.aloveforenemies.com/gunkata3.jpg


as we see when preston blasts partridge in the church

here is a good shot of chart 2 www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/FCeqbaletough.jpg

[TrustKill]

can do.

-ill print out like 50 copies of the chart#2 and do some run throughs later. it will probably tomorrow orover the weekend before i can really work on it, sorry. im at work right now and tonight im going to dinner for my birthday, so im pretty topped out. ill work on it whenever i get a chance though.

-TrustKill-

[Cleric Enemies]

happy birthday!

[TrustKill]

thank ye...

-hopefully i get enough time to work on some of this stuff soon, though. we have a good start and lord knows i dont want to get off topic in here....

hehehehe...

-TrustKill-

[Cleric Enemies]

cool, i'll be posting more stuff soon.

im also working on hand positions with single and dual pistols.



off topic : www.strikefirstrecords.com/media-mp3.htm

you can download an mp3 there from us if you want


;D

[TrustKill]

hand positions, excellent. i was actually just thinking about that. although cool looking, the one hand bent up, one hand bent down is a bit unefficient. i was trying to figure something out for it myself.

-mp3... im there. ::rubs hands together::

-TrustKill-

edit: just listened to the song.. its badass. really nice breakdowns and such. i didnt know sinai beach was on the same label as you. i saw them play here not all that long ago! thanks for the mp3 tip. DEFINITELY let me know when you are coming to town. its been a few months since ive stepped into the dance pit.

[trustkill not signed in]

i gotta leave work now. but know that i made some copies of the chart. i work in an architectural office, so i should have enough tools to do something with it. thanks again, enemies. laters...

-TrustKill-

[Cleric Enemies]

you got it!
ill have more stuff up soon

[Cleric Enemies]

ok here is an coverage area chart i made up.
this shows the angles of the shooters hands/arms to ensure the maxium amount of coverage 360 degrees.


www.aloveforenemies.com/gunkataangle1.jpg

[TrustKill]

alright! i like that. though i see this thing getting complicated really fast. hehe. im trying to run some ideas through...

-TrustKill-

[Cleric Enemies]

yeah it can get complicated. thats why im starting with the basics, phase one if you will. once i get some good 3d figure models ill be able to apply those charts to pictures which will make it a lot easier to understand.

[TrustKill]

yeah, or at least the charts from multiple angles. or you could do video clips or something, but at this stage of the game, video is a bit much.

-TrustKill-

[Cleric Enemies]

I could take a pictures, hmm, yeah i can do that

[Cleric Enemies]

hey wheres rymel?

[Rymel]

rymel's family members are retarded and disconnected the cable line to prove a point of control. the question that lies before that family member now is...now what? stand there and feel like an ass since he now has no cable too, IMHO (and wasting $50/month). so i'm doing this from my mom's house, so updates will be sporadic until i reconnect the cable. this will require lockpicking skills on my part (don't ask)...the grammaton clerics are multitalented indeed...

but yea, back on topic...wolf was talking to me, i got really annoyed cuz i'd seen clericcky post stupid crap on a few other threads as well, and he'd finally got to mine. so no worries trustkill, enemies. you guys were still quite on topic

enemies, you got some good stuff to start us off with, but trust i think the yin-yang pistol post is meant as intermediaries between movements in the kata only, or to finish off the kata/look badass after application . the hand position chart confuses me a bit though, could you explain how the arms are moving through those motions? the basic firing position you put up would be good for training purposes only, and i'd widen the stand to shoulder width for further stability, unless that was what you meant. the standard combat stance is where i'd focus my basic firing practice on. i'll clarify that with drawings or something of what i mean using single pistol style. the box drawings you put up remind me of filipino martial arts, does kendo use that too?

filipino martial arts is something i'd like to borrow from greatly because of its sheer deadliness and efficiency. any martial arts system that can kill about 1000 spaniards and send them running back to their ships to cannonball the crap out of your island is okay by me!

trustkill i've been messing with arm motions to figure out the most efficient movements as well, i'll try to put something up as soon as i figure out a way TO show it. happy birthday, btw.

i'll listen to your mp3 when i can get back to my computer, sorry dude. i'd also like to meet up with you sometime to discuss optimal body positioning. i'd suggest a coffee house but people might get suspicious if we start talking about optimal body positioning for firing on multiple targets, and try to give physical examples...although the witches brew might be a good idea if we had a corner seat, but i've got no way to get there so i have to stay in nyc...trustkill you never did say where you were from. are you not far from us?

i think i've got some melee techniques to put up. they're kind of reminiscent of wing chun/JKD wooden dummy training, if you guys are familiar with that. trying to throw in some elbow and leg techniques though since it mainly relies on backfists, palm strikes and knife hand style attacks, both over and underhand. but once i start throwing in elbow strikes it turns into chinese splashing hands style, which isn't a bad thing at all but closes the gap to literally face to face which pretty much eliminates firing possibilities (for both parties), but not completely. what do you guys think? i hope i didn't confuse you with a verbal description.

stances i can see gun kata relying on greatly are "basic fighting stance", bow and arrow, horse (what doesn't?), dragon/serpent (i can't remember the name of it), and a low cat stance. any others come to mind for you guys?

[Rymel]

Cleric said:

the only thing about that session that resembled kendo was the head gear brandt was wearing. those bokken (wooden swords) were custom built for the movie. Preston is using a style of under hand sword fighting used and developed by a master japanese swordsman who was blind. Brandt is using a crude ken-jitsu style he probably was shown the basics the day before shooting. The underhand style is very rarely taught. but it is a real style. Its very hard to do correctly.
I know i was goin to try and post my footwork guidelines today but i got held up a work then went to band practice and just got home its 12midnite where i am, so i have to hit the hay, i;ll def post that tomorrow thought

y'know i actually missed this post, sorry enemies. the bokken are NOT fake, i've seen them for sale on karatedepot.com. they're hardwood "ninja" swords. can you find out anything about that blindman's swordfighting style? i'm really interested in it. also some kenjitsu info would be nice, but i guess not necessary. really, really interested in that blind style info though ;D

link to the sword:
www.karatedepot.com/wp-ni-20.html

it's a sword i actually was eyeballing before the movie as i liked the style and i preferred the handguard as opposed to none on bokken, and it's cheaper than a shinai ^_^;

[Rymel]

hey guys, i've been thinking...we need a name to put all this under. gun kata signifies only a single form, and won't do as a name. although it could be used to define the basic kata however. i mentioned on first post the names gun-fu and gunwaltz. gun-fu is unlikely given the CP2020 description (it sounds like a nether adaptation, doesn't it?), but gunwaltz sounds fitting as the gun kata seems kind of like a dance, y'know? fighting is also considered dancing in a way, but yea...also the problem with trying to unify it under a single form name...we can't. not with all the variations in information we're sharing. with enemies contributing swordfighting knowledge and myself working on melee combat it's enough alone to separate into their own forms/styles entirely if you were to elaborate on them enough, and even still they could break off into even more specific branches...martial arts does it regularly trustkill is working on guns in general (as well as enemies) and general gun kata information too. i'm not sure about wolf, it seems like he kinda dropped off...but hey, maybe he could help us write up an article for this site afterwards ;D

then comes the issue of what i had mentioned in 2 other threads, female cleric and grammaton standard issue. since it's a military-oriented gov't the idea of job-specific clerics is a very possible concept. heavy hitters, stealth assassins, speed-oriented clerics, deep operations...this would change the needs and styles of those particular clerics considerably, especially firearms selection and the possibility of armor. come to think of it, this would open a whole 'nother realm for fiction writers...

in terms of forms/styles..gunkatta.com mentioned a mantis style in which they used a knife and single gun. personally i don't like the technique shown in his video because the gun isn't held right and the first stab is very poor, at least in their execution. but aside from that the concept is a very good one.

sword style 'lancer' - i'm not sure whether to include sword/gun style into mantis style or separate it. there's also the issue of overhand or underhand sword. with combat application of gun and sword i would shorten the blade to maybe shoto length to protect the user, although variations in blade length would allow for variations in technique, even more expansion. the blade could be used knifefighter style with the sword held along the forearm for protection and for quick slicing motions, and with just a straightening of the wrist could extend the blades reach and add to its killing power by stabbing. i'm not sure if it's taught in kendo, but i'm pretty sure it's taught in iaido, the importance of wrist action for amplification of power.

melee form would utilize most of what i mentioned 2 posts up, backfists, knife hands over and underhand, elbows, possibly knee techniques and sweeping, and if the barrel weight on the front were sharpened, stabbing motions to distract and disable the enemy (eye, throat, under the chin). there's also joint manipulation. expanding this into a style would delve very deeply into melee combat past what would normally be taught to a cleric. this would also include closer than point blank firing, perhaps body contact firing. to incorporate that into gun kata would be very difficult indeed. variations between single gun and dual gun would be considerable as well. so much work...

assault rifle - joint and limb manipulation would be very easy with larger weapons and could be used as leverage and a fulcrum point for throws and locks. not much can be expanded in terms of firing but i could be wrong. one thing that can be expanded on would be firing positions and rifle positioning along the body. i'm not quite sure if you can get away with dual rifles...the recoil would make things iffy for full auto but semi auto shouldn't be terribly difficult. of course if you were to hold them shooting sideways one over your head and one across the chest you might have some issues with shell ejection, which is probably why the G36 sounds very good as it's top ejection, i believe. there is also a front ejecting weapon that was only a prototype and stopped due to funding, but would lend well to this, i think the G6. it also used caseless ammo and plastic casing so it would be considerably lighter and easier to manipulate. then there's anti-rifle techniques...

shotgun - shotgun techniques would vary depending on the style of shotgun used. obviously if there's no stock there may be less available technique. many of the rifle techniques would apply here, but the recoil on a shotgun would change things considerably, as well as the type of shotgun. there should be one particular one to train with i'd think. dual shotguns a la the 'puppy defense scene' i REALLY doubt, unless you've got some killer arms..and some well developed wrists...and even then not many techniques would be available. it'd be interesting to see a style derived from an automatic shotgun, however, since you could possibly use the recoil as an aid in changing direction of your weapon to the next target. this would be close body changing i'd think, i've never fired one so i can't say if you can fire shotguns with the arm extended out, partially or completely a la evil dead (hail to the king baby).

and with that insanely long post i think i'll shut up now.

[Cleric Enemies]

wow that was a lot of stuff,
ill keep working on some more things, im actually going to have a chance to "test" what i have so far, some friends and i are going to have a little airsoft match later, it will be four of them against me . ill let you know how that works out.

the bokken i mentioned are not "fake" but the are props modeled after a nin-jitsu bokken. the commentary on the dvd confirms that too i think, if not, one of the interviews does.

good stuff, keep it coming;

[Rymel]

i'm pretty sure it was that particular bokken. it's only 10 bucks so why pay for a custom prop? and yea that was a lot of stuff, i scared myself looking at how much i wrote after i hit post...o.O...

[JonF]

My firearm 2 pence. The G36 is right side ejecting, the top-ejection thing Kurt Wimmer mentions is the Beretta pistols which *can* be modified for top ejection because of the position of the port on the gun.

The G11 is the HK caseless rifle that only saw limited production. When they say 'caseless' they mean it, there are no plastic cases, each bullet is embedded in a block of propellant which is destroyed by ignition, firing the round. It is possible to fire three round bursts which are so fast that the recoil is not felt until all have been fired. It would be the perfect Cleric assault rifle, and there's no reason why they wouldn't put it into production themselves if they still had HK's blueprints (a stretch, I know).

Dual rifles are impossible to wield, but perhaps the perfect Cleric SMG is the FN P90, seen carried by sweepers and also in Stargate). It ejects cases, but from the bottom at the front. It's also short, armour-piercing, possible to wield (just about) one handed, and cool and black

I would suggest choosing just one of these, as the Clerics are very effective with just handguns, it suggests they don't need much else. So I would go with the G11 as giving them extended range over and above the P90.

[TrustKill]

rymel- unfortunately, yes, i do live far away. as in half the country away, hehe, in Kansas City, MO.

-gunwaltz sounds like a cool name as i may or may not have reflected towards the first post... i like the idea of different styles for different cleric-type jobs. i have always thought the cleric are sort of like samurai in a weird way, but where are the ninja? (stealth-type clericesque assassin soldiers.) thats what i really want to see.

-TrustKill-

[Cleric Enemies]

*jonF* : thanks for all that cool info!

ok. here is the result from the "airsoft" game i played with my friends. It was 5 of them vs. me, in a (freezing) outdoor setting. I was using two Taurus PT92 Electric blowback pistols. the opposition was using anything from spring pistols, to electric mini's to full auto electric mp5.

ok so i could say how i beat them all without a problem using gun kata and they never hit me, but then i would be lying.

in the begining they scored a lot of hits on me, i would still take them out as well, but in a real situation i would've been down right away. as the game went on i settled in and started thinking about the angles, this whole thing is angles, when two of them cornered me, one in front one behind but off to a 45* angle, i managed to move my self to an opposite angle while firing at the same time. that is the key: to move AND fire and the same time. i did this without getting hit, i put my self at an opposite angle than that of what their weapons were pointing at. i did this a few times, but in the end still took some hits at some points. Rematch!

i learned ALOT, it was fun, my friends were laughing at some of the things i was doing, some of them have never seen EQ, but either way with some more practice and form development, i'd be able to do better next time.

[Cleric Enemies]

also ::: i think im just gonna make a manual all at once, in PDF format. i'll make a nice cover for it, and lay it out nice. actually to do this i'm gonna need some help: anyone down, if everyone takes a couple of sections, we should be able to do it rather quickly. plus the way i see it it will be 3 volumes or more

volume one
* introduction
* about gun kata
* basic theory
* a lesson in angles
* body position
* forms
* fitness
* firearm safety
* personal firearm : pistols
* tactics in application


*** you know something like that.

[TrustKill]

sounds like a good idea. lemme push some digital papers around for a little while here at the office, and then ill take a look at doing a section or so.

-TrustKill-

[Rymel]

oops. which assault rifle am i thinking of then...thanks for the info on the beretta though, i didn't know about that

the G11 was what i was thinking of. it looked like a beautiful weapon, they shouldn'tve ceased production, unless you can still do limited orders. and they probably would have put it into production, as libria was built in old germany

i think dual rifles are a slim possibility, depending highly on the weapons, modifications to reduce recoil, and practitioner fitness level, which would have to be stupid high. not to mention timing and reflexes. but that's a good suggestion, the FN P90. i've only seen a few pictures so i'll have to look it up again though. what other weapons are anything but side ejection?

damn trustkill, the does suck

i think an stealth operations cleric would take the role of assassin/ninja. they could study forms of gun kata that rely on light stepping and knife-dependent. they'd also have their own melee form i'd think, since they'd need to know a lot of instant-kill or silent techniques.

it's great you actually went out and tried to apply it, enemies. theory is one thing, application is another thing entirely. it sucks you got taken out a lot, but at least you got one scenario where i'm sure they were like wtf? but you walked out a lot wiser than you came in with, so now you can work out theory better.

the manual thing is a great idea, unfortunately i don't think we have anywhere near enough info for even the most basic manual. but i guess if we start it now we can always revise it...constantly... ;D

there's a shaolin form i'm thinking of modifying for gun kata, small circular fist. unfortuntately they took it off their website so i'm gonna have to hope i printed it up somewhere.

[Cleric Enemies]

yeah i did learn a lot.
the good thing is my friends are willing to be silly with me and have airsoft fights regularly so i can develop more

ill keep you posted

[Cleric Enemies]

yeah i did learn a lot.
the good thing is my friends are willing to be silly with me and have airsoft fights regularly so i can develop more

ill keep you posted

[AnynomousTipster]

no.......!, the FNp90 or any otehr assualt rifle/ submachine gun cannot be a cleric side arm. the fact is the recoil that would be felt as well as the massive size of these weapons, just imagining a person carrying over 20lbs or firearms on their hands AND having each weapon extend to their elbow length will cause limited space and therfore less effective firing. THE effective weapons that clerics can use that can provide an alternative to single fire pistols would be PDW weapons, or personal defense weapons. Civilian models of machine pistols that are SMALL and provide RAPID fire with 30 round magazines will be perfect for clerics, as well as low weights of anywhere from 4 to 7 pounds on each hand that will allow maximum performance on each hand. Also imagine doing gunkata with these things, im sure berettas go at max at around 2lbs on each hand, for for machine pistols at 5lbs max on each hand aint so bad.

[JonF]

In my opinion, using twin P90s would only be marginally more impossible (?!) than *effectively* wielding two muzzle-weighted Berettas. The idea is its the conditioning, both physical and mental that the cleric go through, allowing them to perform seemingly impossible feats, within the bounds of physics. Also, perhaps the P90s could be modified with arm braces or similar. We're only bouncing ideas around.

In answer to Rymels q about other non-side ejecting weapons, another firearm to consider is the series of Calico pistols/carbines/smgs/rifles, all using the same receiver and 50 or 100 round magazine system. These eject from the bottom and would provide massive firepower, though at 'wieldable' length, would be no more accurate than the current cleric sidearm.

PS Check out the G11 on www.hkpro.com. You'll find it a few pages in under 'ahead of its time'.

PPS That bokken states it emulates the 'true' straight sword of the Ninja. Consensus atm is that Ninja never used straight swords, and its actually unclear who the historical ninja were. Hollywood has effectively created the black-clad masked ninja with ninjato chisel-tipped sword

[JenGe]

Just to make it clear the bokkens used in Equilibrium were created specifically for the film. They were just turned wood & broke easily during the filming. There may be "real" ones out there but they were not used during the making of the film.