Cleric ammo solution?

[akumabito]

OK, here's just some thought I had on the Cleric sidearm..

In the movie, while we DO see him reload occasionally, he seems to be getting an awefull lot of shots from each clip. Especially in the openings scene..

My idea is that those guns might be using caseless ammo. I know.. we do hear shells falling, but bear with me for a second.

With caseless ammo, the actual rounds are a lot smaller than normal, but so are the muzzle velocity, and the rate of fire. With 5mm caseless ammo (doesn't exsist yet, but hey, it's the future!) you could probably easily squeeze 30 rounds in a standard size Beretta clip, while the ammo, due to it's speed, still manages to get the power of a 9mm round. Also these rounds would be, to some extend, armor piercing.

If I remember correctly, at least 1 or 2 of the resistance members were wearing bullet proof vests, so that would make sense.

Only two things that object the caseless ammo theory are the falling shells (caseless ammo doesn't have that, as the name implies), and the slide rocking back and forward.. I don't believe caseless ammo guns need that.. though the only one I know is the HK G11, and that's an assault rifle, not a handgun, so it might be neccesary after all..

[MAX]

akumabito said:

Only two things that object the caseless ammo theory are the falling shells (caseless ammo doesn't have that, as the name implies), and the slide rocking back and forward.. I don't believe caseless ammo guns need that.. though the only one I know is the HK G11, and that's an assault rifle, not a handgun, so it might be neccesary after all..

They're pretty significant things...

[Witcher Wolf]

I proposed the idea that the ammo might be caseless ages ago in another thread, however, the falling cases definitely refutes that theory. I guess the guns might be a little more efficient in EQ, but I think we're dealing with a Hollywood - what looks good moment.

[ClericHeliX]

Hmmm, he does seem to fire FAR to many shots for the size of clip, looks a bit like a desert eagle clip really so 7-10 shots max i guess

[pyro]

a while ago, someone metioned that the berttas he uses can hold about 16 rounds, he had 6 clips so 6 X 16 is ... ::looks for caluator:: 96 rounds. he even used that assult rifle, so taking out 50 sweepers does seem about right

[akumabito]

Yeah, but if you look at the openings scene, he keeps firing full auto for a long time, without reloading..

[pojo]

In the church, when Preston executes Partridge, you see a single bullet case fly upwards and off camera. If you listen to the audio commentary, Wimmer says he intended the case to fly up and hit the camera, but it didn't happen.

I'm surprised more people didn't mention it.

[akumabito]

We all know the gun used is a modified version of a quite common 9mm weapon. And it has been mentioned before that we can see/hear a shell be ejected from the gun..

This really is a Movie vs. Reality thing.

Of course it looks great to have ammo cases fly all over the place. But the truth is that clip capacity will be limited when using ordinary bullets.

In (future) reality, I believe caseless ammo would be the logic next step, an evolution over regular handguns:

You get more power in a smaller package, allowing you to carry more ammo, and allowing a weapon to be loaded with more rounds.

Also, since caseless ammo doesn't eject cases (lol, duh) you won't risk getting burned in the face cuz of getting hit by hot cases being ejected from the gun while performing a kata...

[Drayvn]

....or that u leave a trace behind when they cant leave a trace behind, just in case of detection or it can be followed back to the source or where it is made.

But yes the berretas do hold around 15 rounds, but i think its just mostly hollywood talking really!

[TrustKill]

akumabito said:

Yeah, but if you look at the openings scene, he keeps firing full auto for a long time, without reloading..

-not all of the gun sounds or flashes in the dark room are his. besides, they added in the muzzle flashes after the actual shot, and im sure they had other things to be worrying about besides counting shots.

-TrustKill-

[Johnny Moniker]

Just because there is a higher capacity of ammunition that is of a smaller caliber, and that the velocity is higher, it does not mean that it's better.
The idea is to put your opponent down. 9mms can easily pass through your target due to their higher velocity. If the target is still standing and pointing a weapon at you, it doesn't really matter that you hit them. Thats why many 9mm assault rifles and subs have a three round burst selector. Three 9mm rounds in rapid succession at the exact same place is equivalent to say one .45ACP round. SOCOM use .45 in their standard sidearm.
The cleric's weapon is a modified 92, a 9mm, but with a full auto capability much like certain Glocks.
The fact Preston doesn't run out of ammo is because its a film.

[TrustKill]

actually... the three round burst selector is to help special military operations conserve ammo. in combat situations, it is hard even for trained professionals to not squeeze off unneccessary rounds.

-plus, it has been tried and true that a three round burst aimed at the kill zone on a person (center of the torso) will be almost guaranteed effective. the recoil brings the following second and third shots up from the first wound,drawing a line from the center of the chest up to the neck and sometimes even the head.

[johnny moniker]

Right, I see. But ultimately the idea is still one of dropping your enemy in the quickest time whilst still conserving ammo. A cleric's weapon, although capable of burst fire, is almost always on full auto, which is in direct contradiction of this. As you yourself point out, recoil will vastly affect the aim of your weapon, more so on full auto. So by doing this a cleric would have less accuracy and would also go dry sooner. Surely not good with multiple targets and limited ammo. I think the issue of firing close to the head has been discussed, but it's really not a good idea. Powder, wadding, cases and noise are gonna all come your way.
The gunkata would probably work more effectively on burst or single round.
Just wanna add I'm new here and only saw EQ a couple of days ago, so make some allowances. Will say you guys all have some pretty good ideas in regard to this film, and the forum rocks! Nobody gets petty, which is good to see for a change.

[TrustKill]

sounds like you and i are on the same sort of track. the first posts i wrote stuff in were about the weapons and whatnot. nice to have you around, you should register.

-you're right about the full-auto and whatnot. it effects accuracy rediculously. though i suppose that, theoretically, you could as a cleric learn how to use the recoil to redirect your shots and to keep your motions fluid. hmm.... that is something to contemplate for our gun kata project around here.

-plus, i dont know from personal experience, but it seems that full auto firing of pistols from odd angles (as clerics do) sometimes upside down and while turning the guns would make the weapons more prone to jamming in reality. the truth is, we'll never be able to know until someone makes a working system, which will probably never be done.

-yeah, i mentioned the "movie magic" factor in an earlier post on this thread. the truth of the film is, it doesnt matter how many bullets it takes to reload. the effects and props people have other things to worry about than counting shots and making the reloads in the movie accurate to real life.

[Witcher Wolf]

Mr. Moniker (A) Cool name, (B) register and join the fun m8

[JonF]

Actually, the settings on the gun with the selector read 'Semi' 'Auto' and 'Lock'. No burst capability.

[TrustKill]

damn.... you're right.

[Bedlam X]

is not possible that he changes mags in the opening gunfight? its dark, so you wouldnt see it onscreen. also, given the fact that certain parts of the film are slowed to allow you to see every detail, we have no real idea how fast the wrist ammo changers work - so it may be instantaneous with the clerics training.

[JonF]

That's reasonable, especially when you look at the slowmo reload scene and realise he's reloading one gun whilst still blazing with the other...

[johnny moniker]

Thanks guys, good to have such a warm welcome and to hear from some like minded types.
I think Trustkill has nailed this thread though: the solution is simple. Lots of props boys standing by with a fresh clip or two for when Johnny goes dry. Ahh, the magic of movies...see you on the next thread.

[Noname]

The Cleric Sidearms (Berettas, <3) have Compensators on the barrel; this is a weight on the barrel to compensate (hence the name) for recoil.

They're not called Clips either, it's Magazines!!11@

[TrustKill]

::sigh::

-there are 9 bazillion threads identifying the beretta 92 as the sidearm of the grammaton cleric. anyone who really cares knows that is what it is. it just has an extended barrel, compensator and modified slide to make the side flush w/ the comp. and a select fire drop in system blah blah blah.

-everybody here also knows that clips and magazines both equal ammo. even if "magazine" is the correct term, i seriously doubt that someone calling a magazine a "clip" hurts your feelings so much you would have the urge to correct them in real life. so either you are obsessive compulsive, or you are just being difficult.

-im starting to get the urge to become one of those forum dickheads that i hate so much.

-please, please, please dont just show up in the forum thinking you know a ton of stuff that the rest of us dont before you take a look around. i mean... there is a main thread that even says something like, "i found a cleric airsoft beretta something something..." its right there.

-sorry... i lost my temper a little.

-TrustKill-

[JenGe]

TrustKill said:

::sigh::

-there are 9 bazillion threads identifying the beretta 92 as the sidearm of the grammaton cleric.

You know, I had originally thought to but all the gun kata stuff on the Freedom Reading Board because so much of it really does get repeated but with so many threads it actually needed a board of its own. I can always tag a thread a "Retread" if I have to.

On another point it does always surprise me the amount of people who either don't read threads/websites before they post or want to be anal about technicalities. I believe there is even a point in the commentary where Wimmer himself calls them "clips."

This is Not a GUN site!! It is a MOVIE site!!

[Witcher Wolf]

Amen...

Movie Site!

I couldn't give two paws if the gun had a hans wankel double-chocolate, triple barreled liquorice flavoured gas compressor or not.

I too am starting to lose my Zen in certain cases.

[Witcher Wolf]

Guest-Noname said:

The Cleric Sidearms (Berettas, <3) have Compensators on the barrel; this is a weight on the barrel to compensate (hence the name) for recoil.

They're not called Clips either, it's Magazines!!11@

I know several people in the US Army as well, who call the ammunition for a gun - clips. Magazines always strikes me as a British word, and since I don't think Playboy would fit into a gun...clip seems to suit much better.

Wolf <-- eternally sarcastic bastard.

[mr187drama]

hello everybody, im new to this board, and enjoy reading all the posts about this great film.

i see everyboday saying that it a beretta 92, which it does look like, but jus to let u know beretta makes a m93r which robocop uses. and it is a stock fully automatic pistol, and holds 20 rounds per clip, robos was modified to hold 30. so thats my assumption on the gun. seen here www.generationairsoft.com/wpn/GAS_KSC_m93r.htm

now about the clips, movies are never right on with reloading, my fav error is bullet tooth tony in snatch firing off like 11 rounds from a DE .50.

i have a few questions now, what kind of shotgun was that they were killing the dogs with? its huge. and what kind were the 2 shotty's he flipped around, at the dog in trunk scene?

and why did he have diff clips near the final scenes?

take care everybody

[TrustKill]

the pistols used werent 93R's as they have a slightly thicker profile (for the auto-fire sear mechanisms) and the slide is much bulkier to handle the rigors of burst fire and such. plus they are so hard to find, the expense would have been much greater. if you have seen underworld you will find similar pistols to the ones in EQ. beretta 92F's have drop in devices you can buy for not too much money that make them fully auto.

-the gun that the sweeper was using to execute the puppies wasnt a shotgun at all. it was actually a sniper rifle w/ no scope. its a W2000 rifle that was just used for looks.

-im not sure about the ones that he smacks out of the sweepers hands. maybe 870's that are pretty heavily modded w/ vertical grips and tac lights and shit. ill have to look into that.

[JonF]

Jen, I'm afraid the nature of the internet and of a film like EQ is that people will discuss the minutiae that interest them, be it dialogue, costume, cgi etc. This being the net, things get *very* detailed and somewhat obsessive, but this is a part of free speech and an outlet for many energies. Since EQ has some very artfully modified firearms, it attracts a lot of interest in that direction. I'm afraid short of some very 'Librian' moderating in the forums, people will always discuss such things. The main problem is that of people thinking they know more than others or not reading existing material and so creating new replies or posts about topics that have been done to death as far as many are concerned. Isn't that true of many people though? Fans will always think they know a great deal, it has to be expected. Two solutions:

1) Jen, in your 'guns' section, you could state catagorically that the clerics sidearm is a modified M92FS, since we all but know this for a fact. Putting one of those great screenshots from that new american-buddha.com website right under that statement might help.
2) Make people register to post. It seems a bit oppressive, but stops people making a couple of clicks and giving you more work. Those who take time to register will be more likely to search for existing knowledge.
3) Everyone else; don't get so worked up. If you see a post that shows ignorance of forum etiquette or rules, ignore it; the user will either get the message and do some research or bugger off entirely. The only 'guest' posters that persist seem to get themselves registered anyway. I must admit to a compulsion to reply to 'incorrect' information on forums, but I try and check myself these days unless the info really isn't obvious on the site in question. Correcting and flaming is counterproductive as it perpetuates pointless threads and only serves to annoy people. If you feel like lightening the moderator's load just make a cut-and-paste bit of text you can post saying 'If you use the search feature/other areas of the site, you'll find what you're looking for'.

People getting terratorial and overprotective forums on which they post seems to me to cause more problems than just shaking one's head quietly and moving to the next thread.

Sorry for the long post!
Jon

[JenGe]

JonF said:

Sorry for the long post!
Jon

Jon, thank you for your advice about my forum & my site.

I hope you will not take offense if I do not comply to your recommendations but after years of Mod-ing I have my own style. My theory on forums is to have fun...that is first & foremost my rule. I have to admit that even I find flaming & correcting to be fun at times so I certainly would not want to deny myself my own pleasure on my forum.

To me registration is pointless because I can still ban anyone I please through their IP and since this is really only a fan site message board I want even those who are but passing though to be able to add their comments.

I admit that my boards are run differently then most. My rules are simple...Have Fun...read before posting (not actually required but you'll incur wrath if you don't)...DON'T PISS ME OFF!! Other then that everyone is entitled to their opinion but if you make a statement have the guts to take it as well.

About the gun...until Wimmer point blank states the model I will not officially change the site.

Again thank you,

Jen

[JonF]

Fair enough. I thought I detected a note of displeasure in your post, I do hope you didn't think I was trying to tell you how to do your job, because that wasn't my intention. I don't often contribute to even this degree on forums because it simply isn't often worth the potential aggro. Sometimes it seems like everyone on the web is out for a fight!

The point about the gun was purely a suggestion since I thought casual visitors would take it from you what it was and not keep posting about it (though the geek in me says you could empirically prove its a 92FS with comparative pictures...must restrain my geek!)

My other comments were likewise aimed at helping your apparent exasperation with posters who don't check out the rest of the site before posting.

Anyway, I should close by saying this remains the only comprehensive EQ site on the web, and is really rather good!