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Post by JenGe on Feb 25, 2004 21:14:14 GMT -5
Fair enough. I thought I detected a note of displeasure in your post, I do hope you didn't think I was trying to tell you how to do your job, because that wasn't my intention. No worries Jon. I actually appreciate the input though I don't want any hard feelings if I choose to do differently. Besides it takes a geek to know a geek. Who but one of us would spend endless hours coding a website. ;D You have to understand...I have eight kids!! Bashing idiots up-side the head on my site is all part of my therapy!! ;D Thanks again, Jen
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JonF
Resistance Member
Posts: 61
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Post by JonF on Feb 26, 2004 19:43:33 GMT -5
Ah, I see I have yet to know the joy(s) of parenthood. I enough trouble with pets having had a 'rescue' female cat that turned out to be a male with a fatal illness and a stunted corn snake that escaped two weeks ago and I haven't seen since :
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Post by Kingmob3 on Mar 18, 2004 14:27:35 GMT -5
wow this bord is great. However there are still several questions posted that havent been answered. 1) the odd mag's that he used in the end were extended mags- they just hold more ammo. 2)the G11 and PDW caseless were killed in the early 90's becouse of 3 things 1)buget, 2)no more cold war, 3) the g11's round wasent as powerfull as a regular rifle,it just was a faster mechinism(more accurate repeted shots) but your consideration of the caseless ammo represents ingenuity, which is good How ever this is just a movie - who said they ever have to be completly realistic? And if you want to bitch about a movie pistol try the Law giver's in judge dred
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Post by Waveman on Mar 31, 2004 15:43:07 GMT -5
Hmmm.... I just watched half of EQ 15 minutes ago and I am certain that preston fired his weapons on semi-auto when he charged into the dark room.
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Post by JenGe on Mar 31, 2004 18:05:37 GMT -5
Hmmm.... I just watched half of EQ 15 minutes ago and I am certain that preston fired his weapons on semi-auto when he charged into the dark room. So why only half of the film?? Did you finish it??
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Post by EsbenF on Apr 1, 2004 5:15:10 GMT -5
Hmmm.... I just watched half of EQ 15 minutes ago and I am certain that preston fired his weapons on semi-auto when he charged into the dark room. I actually agree with this, I've always thought he fired semi-auto in that scene. Not full-auto.
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Post by Waveman on Apr 6, 2004 19:29:35 GMT -5
I had to study. I finished the watching it the following day. Preston fired at semi he just happened to work those triggers DAMN fast. Pobably top notch for the semi setting. I don't think he would have much to benefit from firing full auto against such a spread out crowd, gunkata is suppsosed to be all about precision. Besides there was already enough dramatic ambience in that scene so it would probably not have been very significant for effect.
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Post by Efialtis on Apr 7, 2004 1:58:29 GMT -5
I think, in order to do what they have done with the ammo situation, you would almost certainly have to be running caseless, or near caseless ammo. 9mm sabot sleeve for a 7mm (or so) projectile. Instead of a full case with gunpowder (30%) and air (70%), you use a higher explosive on a disk attached to the back side of the sabot. You can cram abot 32 rounds into a standard mag that way. AND you get the HUGE muzzle flash that way... And the casings hitting the ground? The expended sabot sleeve, of course!
Problem solved.
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Post by Cleric Ward on Apr 19, 2004 13:34:16 GMT -5
I did some research, and finally got to the point that he might possibly fire some kind of 5,56 mm Steyr Flechette which was designed for the Advanced Combat Rifle project. www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/flechette.html A link, but it's in German.
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Post by Shadow391 on Apr 19, 2004 21:50:14 GMT -5
Hey all, I just found this site, as I've been too lazy to look before. Anyhow, couple thoughts here for consideration: The shotguns used in the shootout in the Nether were probably Binelli M1 Tactical shotguns, as they have a pistol grip standard, and mountings for sights, grips, and what-have-you. The Beretta 92FS and DS have no universal manufacturer anymore. And with modern, computer guided techniques, a clip can be expanded. I've seen clips done for a Beretta that held up to 24 rounds of your standard 9mm Parabellum. The other possiblity is the Beretta M98, which was aesthetically similar to the M92, but used a 7.65mm cartridge. As for using a Stey ACR Flechette rounds, it wouldn't technically be possible, as the flechette's are no longer manufactured, and were not very effective to begin with. And the problems with packing 7mm Sabot into a clip, is the increased pressure on the barrel, and the wear on the internals. Too much gas for a Beretta, and too little charge. The caseless, while a good idea, just doesn't cut it. Caseless ammunition is a bullet buried in a block of powder. You can't use your standard clip for this stuff, it has to be oiled, railed, and air-tight once it's in the gun and feeding rounds into the chamber. Also, because it's a block of propellant, the barrel of the gun has to be thick and strong, AKA, Heavy, drop forged iron. H&K had a lot of problems with the primary production models of the G11. They did solve them, and the caseless solution is a good, powerful idea, but automatic fire is not possible. The G11 was limited to a max of three round burst, because of heat issues. If the barrel cooks, and you try to fire a caseless slug, kiss your ass goodbye. Anyhow, that's my thoughts on this one. After all, this is just a movie. TTYL -Shadow
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Stazbumpa
Sense Offender
Looking for my place in the sun.
Posts: 6
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Post by Stazbumpa on Apr 21, 2004 11:04:15 GMT -5
I was under the impression that cook off in a G11 took place at a higher temperature than normal weapons due to the advances in propellant. Could be wrong though. Also I understand it WAS capaple of full auto, 450rpm, in at least its first few versions.
Caseless is the next step, once the cook off problem is solved your laughing.
As for the start of the film, he's definately firing semi auto. Given the training a cleric undertakes, quick firing and remaining on target would'nt really be a problem, there are people in the real world that can fire pistols on semi auto and it sounds like a machine gun burst.
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Post by Shadow391 on Apr 21, 2004 14:59:54 GMT -5
The cook off in a G11 was the result of an inbalance in the chemical composition of the propellant. The second incarnation of the 4.7mm caseless involved a decrease in the amount, and the rifle had a heavier barrel fitted, that would allow it to absorb the heat better. The final production model of the G11 had a fire rate of 600RPM, but that is not cyclic, it is for the single fire. Basically, they are saying "this is how many rounds you could fire in one minute if you just repeatedly pressed the trigger really quickly." The 3 shot burt fired at over 2000RPM. Unlike other weapons (ie. M16) with a triple shot, the G11's first and second bullet had an almost 100% chance of a spot on hit, with the third coming within a foot of the first two. Accurate, but unfortunately, after H&K's reconstrunction, the idea has been shelved. 4.7mm caseless isn't really the future, and no caseless solution will be the future until people take it seriously. It's just too damn expensive. That, and a 4.7mm caseless pistol, (or any other size of caseless for that matter) is theoretically impossible. With the rifle, all the heat is contained using heat shields and forcing the barrel to soak up most of the heat. With a pistol, you don't have that luzury, you are limited in size, especially when it comes to the clip. Pistols have short barrels, the caseless rounds need a good barrel length to be truly effective. Anyhow, I hate sounding like a know-it-all, but, just thought it was time for some technical history. lol. TTYL -Shadow
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Post by TrustKill on Apr 22, 2004 8:43:29 GMT -5
the cancellation of the G-11 project was also partially due to the rifle's construction. people using the unit needed an entire new training course for cleaning, managing and dissassembling the weapons. something that is both time consuming and costly if you want to implicate a new weapon into widespread use.
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Post by kungfuj326 on Apr 26, 2004 19:17:23 GMT -5
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Megalomaniac
Resistance Member
Part Time Killer-Full Time Slacker
Posts: 34
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Post by Megalomaniac on Apr 26, 2004 19:55:02 GMT -5
Kungfu326, this is the wrong board and wrong thread to post the bulk of what you just wrote. The questions you asked can be answered in "Resistance Discussions" board. The Gun Kata board is for discussing the weapons used in the movie and of course the greatest. martial. art. ever. Gun Kata.
Back on topic: Might the bullet channel in the magazines be thicker than we think and allow for a staggered or even tripple stack?
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Post by JenGe on Apr 27, 2004 8:16:17 GMT -5
Kungfu326, this is the wrong board and wrong thread to post the bulk of what you just wrote. The questions you asked can be answered in "Resistance Discussions" board. The Gun Kata board is for discussing the weapons used in the movie and of course the greatest. martial. art. ever. Gun Kata. You are correct...it has been moved...
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Post by Machiavelli on Apr 29, 2004 2:23:15 GMT -5
IT seems like the gun has some type of burst fire mode, but it uses WAY too many rounds. Its a movie and must be accepted as such as has been said. Kinda depressing when you learn stuff doesnt work in real life. I had to get over the fact that gun kata and most of this movie doesnt work in life. I found out the hard way in a paintball game.
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Post by Preston on Apr 30, 2004 18:35:09 GMT -5
The idea of the bullets having no shells is very resonable. I have a cross-section pic of the handguns use in the movie and it looks like the bullets really don't have shell. I'll look into it more and post it later. -Preston
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Post by Efialtis on Apr 30, 2004 23:13:11 GMT -5
I did some more research, and watched the movie again and again... In the Scene where he jumps "through" the door into the dark room, when he is done shooting, and the end scene where he is standing, and the camera is at a "floor" angle...you see his firearms glowing red... I shoot. I shoot a lot. H&K USPc .40 I can shot it pretty darn fast. I have NEVER gotten the thing so hot that the barrel was "red hot"... Not even with LEO Hi Cap mags. I was able to get a Full Auto MG red hot, after 1/3 box of ammo...but that is a totally different thing than what is depicted in the movie.
In my estimation, you can have caseless ammo. Not the kind that they were experimenting with in Australia, where they pack a charge, then a bullet, then a charge, and another bullet, etc. into a barrel, and you replace that barrel when you reload... But more like the "rocket ammo" of a few years ago, where the bullet was packed with a solid rocket propellant...(MBA Gyrojet). That might be a bit extreme...but there are all kinds of "explosives" that are far more powerful than gun powder. A small amount on a small plate on the back of the bullet, and instead of a "firing pin" you use an "electric charge" to "fire" the projectile out of the firearm. This would cause a lot of heat, and the end of the barrel would get red hot. It would also account for the extreme muzzle flash you witness in the movie. The idea of a sabot is to cover for the sound of casings hitting the ground. However, it could simply be the little disk or plate that "sandwiches" the explosive used as the propellant. It would also not be unreasonable to use a smaller bullet, 7mm or 6mm. Build them like the RAFUS ammunition the military uses in the .50 Cal... Copper Jacket, Tungsten Dart, Explosive component and Incendiary component packed inside...armor piercing, 100% effective in most cases. Might be a bit much, use of a heavier metal might be preferred, like Steel...with a small tungsten dart inside the core, small explosive component to drive the tungsten dart out(tungsten dart would also serve as the tip of the bullet, so it COULD be expelled...
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Post by comrade konrads on May 8, 2004 10:49:57 GMT -5
On the odd angles, this isn't paintball, so weapon doesn't really care at what angle it is shot. The shell will escape anyway, and the forced the bullet is fired with is much larger to be taken into account when comparing to gravity, so that argument imho is moot Next, firing handguns in full auto is quite sensible actually, in close quarters, you'd still hit the second and third shot, if you would hit the first. In russia there was an excellent gun "stechkin" which was then obsoleted by "drotik" that did just that, fired in full auto.
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Post by Preston on May 15, 2004 13:38:29 GMT -5
Did more research on the berretas. First off, you can't have fully atomatic handguns. It would consist of too much steel and mechanics. Plus you have to have room for the normal firing springs, hammer, etc. It'd weight as much/or more as a normal AK47 or Remminton automatics. You all may not agree with what I post. Hell, nether do I. I think it sucks that you can't have the guns like that. I'm just letting yall know the facts. Sorry for the dissipointment. -Preston
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Post by Shadow391 on May 15, 2004 16:04:24 GMT -5
Preston, obviously your research did not go very far. See, Automatic pistols have been around for the last 40 years. Beretta makes two, the old 93r and the new 951r. These are full automatic handguns. Beretta isn't the only gun company, either, since Glock makes their Glock 18, which is a full automatic model. Next time, do your research a little better.
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Post by TrustKill on May 17, 2004 9:24:49 GMT -5
you can purchase a simple drop in device that attaches to the back of any glock pistol slide (where the plastic baseplate insert that can make them fully automatic. its not really a difficult process.
-the main problem w/ making pistols automatic comes from the excess heat created in a shorter amount of time that handguns are designed for. the glock 18c and the beretta 93r are fine examples of companies trying to remedy this with muzzle breaks and compensator ports.
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Post by VieElskerDetLandet on May 18, 2004 20:12:37 GMT -5
Preston, obviously your research did not go very far. See, Automatic pistols have been around for the last 40 years. Beretta makes two, the old 93r and the new 951r. These are full automatic handguns. Beretta isn't the only gun company, either, since Glock makes their Glock 18, which is a full automatic model. Next time, do your research a little better. 951r is older i think 93r is the newer imagine how hot it would have to be to heat up that large mass of steel on the front of those guns any welders know it takes a lot. it would deform the barrels to worthlessnes if done so. but it looked 'hot' in the movie so i dont mind the fauxpa it is one of the things that 'made the scene'
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Post by Shadow391 on May 18, 2004 22:42:36 GMT -5
Yeah, I know, I got the numbers mixed up for the Beretta automatic models, so sue me. Can't be right all the time, eh?
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Post by TrustKill on May 19, 2004 14:45:31 GMT -5
Yeah, I know, I got the numbers mixed up for the Beretta automatic models, so sue me. Can't be right all the time, eh? you did a damn good job of being close though. props for that.
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Post by VieElskerDetLandet on May 27, 2004 20:43:19 GMT -5
funny errata follows: on the topic of ammo why is it that in the matrix reloaded they do not have to reload? does the title cover that issue for the whole movie. are they always reloaded?
matrix 1 was a coolish movie. i was surprised at the reactuion it got. "original" i heard. actually there is not a single thing in the matrix that wasn't copied from previous movies. although i thought it was a great movie-original seamed the wrong word. off topic, so shoot me.
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Post by TheMacroprosopus on May 27, 2004 21:01:20 GMT -5
matrix 1 was a coolish movie. i was surprised at the reactuion it got. "original" i heard. actually there is not a single thing in the matrix that wasn't copied from previous movies. Was not Bullet-time original? I thought so....
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Post by VieElskerDetLandet on May 27, 2004 21:20:37 GMT -5
no it was in the one space movie. derf- name escapes me but whenever they would jump to hyperspace it would go bullet time
flight commander?? they sit in the breakroom and jump just before it goes off and the tea goes everywhere?
everyone says matrix though.
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Post by Efialtis on May 27, 2004 22:47:34 GMT -5
The technology used to make the Matrix certainly wasn't new. The story was original, the plot, also original, how they used the technology was also original... You were talking about "Lost in Space" where they jumped into hyperspace and everything was slowed down, this isn't "bullet time" but a similar equivalent... They certainly did MORE of that kind of thing in the Matrix. In Reloaded, they do run out of ammo...remember in the car/bike scene on the freeway? THe Agent is shooting at Trin, and runs out of ammo, tosses the gun into the passenger seat, then tries to go after her using the car as a weapon?
I don't think "original" was the word you were looking for, but UNIQUE... The "bullet time" (if you wanna call it that) was not unique to Matrix (series), but the use of it was ORIGINAL... (no hyperspace there)
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