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Post by Rymel on Jan 7, 2004 8:52:02 GMT -5
since i didn't sleep last night, i got to thinkin....with the different scenes and uses of the cleric firearm, it creates a bit of a plot hole. like why spend so much money issuing multiple clips with extendable spikes which would simply complicate the mechanism in the gun and clip giving a larger chance of jamming? it just seemed like it was built specifically for that particular gun. then i believe in that same scene he pulled it out of his pocket, discontinuing the idea that they eject from his sleeves. then there's the question of where did he hide those round-bottomed clips?!
so i wondered, maybe it's like the real military, with standard issue equipment for certain situations? that would explain the standard service pistol, which would be sleeve-holstered. then there could be special issue riot control pistols with the spikes, possibly issued only to the higher ranking clerics. that would then explain why he had them in his pockets, as well as validate using them instead of his usual sleeve guns. please keep in mind i'm going off of someone's post about them in pockets and i can't quite remember where he drew them right now. but even if it were sleeve-ejected it would still apply.
the round-bottom weighted and possibly extended clips (punch clown rounds, as i like to call them) could just be a special clip, but i'm just leaving that as a hollywoodism. but if they were issued or custom, they could just be attachments to extended rounds. maybe as special ops issue for deep field clerics in the nethers, who may have to rely on deception and distraction to gain the upper hand ("resources are tight" could mean sending out clerics on solo missions, or sorely undermanned).
then comes the issue of the ejection and reload harness. taye diggs never did eject his pistols, maybe you're only issued the harness after a certain rank? or first-class only? even if it's not cleric first-class specific, maybe the extra reload mechanism would be. i mean you wouldn't really NEED a reload since a cleric is sent in afterwards as the final super-sweepers, to finish up the job. and even if you did, you DO know how to reload a gun, don't you? but maybe the higher the rank the longer or tougher the mission, hence a quicker reload may be necessary.
then comes the sword training...i'm pretty sure to get to any decent level they're NOT rookie clerics. and i know some people are gonna argue that taye diggs was quite ready to face prestion, he didn't even stand a chance. one could even venture to suspect that sword training only comes after a few ranks (like how the marine corps doesn't issue the sword until you become an NCO). in which case diggs may have been secretly trained seeing as he was off the dose and father's personal watchdog. but i dunno, just some observations. let me know what you guys think.
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 7, 2004 13:10:36 GMT -5
does cleric brandt ever actually fire his pistol in the movie? i dont think he does. he is always checking its load before the action, he shoots a G-36 in the warehouse scene, has the sweepers execute the prisoners instead of killing them himself, etc etc... i cant think of a spot where he actually uses the grammaton pistols.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 7, 2004 13:35:43 GMT -5
i dont think he does at all
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Post by Rymel on Jan 7, 2004 19:15:24 GMT -5
i'm just goin by the two scenes he was brandishing them. before the execution with the infamous gun swap and when he whipped it out trying to incarcerate preston. and i'm pretty sure he just pulls them out.
however it IS pretty odd that he's a cleric and he's using sweeper ordinance, doing their job...why wasn't he using his handguns? unless it's a side effect of his feeling, in which case he was probably enjoying the feel of killing with such a fine weapon...
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Post by ckycleric on Jan 7, 2004 19:22:03 GMT -5
i hate Brandt not only does he not use his pistol but he doesnt exactly know how to use a Samauri Sword...i think he deserved getting his face cut off completely...by the way that was true bad ass by Preston on that one...
C K Y
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Post by Rymel on Jan 7, 2004 19:23:45 GMT -5
how can you say he doesn't know how to use it if he never got a chance to?
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Post by ClericAtko on Jan 8, 2004 1:44:50 GMT -5
Brandt obviously has some skill with the sword, due to the fact that he holds his own and even gets a few hits on Preston during the training scene where they are using the bokken similar weapons to train for the sword.
His easy defeat in the final battle, could be due to Preston holding back in training, but more likely because Brandt violated the first rule of any good martial artist, he rushed in, overcommitting to the attack. Preston simply exploited this mistake
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Post by MisterAnderson on Jan 8, 2004 2:03:08 GMT -5
Also the fact that Preston was still coming to grips with 'feeling' during the Kendo session with Brandt that he was able to land some blows on Preston.
Every time Brandt said something disturbing during that sequence, it put Preston "off his game" slightly.
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Post by ClericArucard on Jan 8, 2004 3:02:50 GMT -5
umm brandt fires his weapon at crap can't remeber her name(emily Watson) lol put Bale pulls the gun up quickly... other than that i can't remeber him firing his gun... PS Hey guys i'm back
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Post by Libby on Jan 8, 2004 3:43:13 GMT -5
Welcome back ClericArucard! Hope this year is a good one for you! Just wanted to say thanks to Rymel and the rest of you for a really fascinating thread. I know zero about guns and such and have lots of issues about them, but in the context of the film, you've added yet another layer of interest for me. Cheers, guys!
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jan 8, 2004 5:17:29 GMT -5
Welcome back Alucard, and greetings to the new faces as well.
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Post by pyro on Jan 8, 2004 19:16:20 GMT -5
however it IS pretty odd that he's a cleric and he's using sweeper ordinance, doing their job...why wasn't he using his handguns? unless it's a side effect of his feeling, in which case he was probably enjoying the feel of killing with such a fine weapon... brandt didnt use his pistols during that scene due to the amount of guys in the building. thats a good observation, because he 'felt' the urge to kill...
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Post by Jon on Jan 9, 2004 12:06:28 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that as well as variations like hammer, trigger gaurd, fire selector, and spikes the various cleric pistols in the film are all different lengths! The compensator seems to vary from adding maybe 1.5 inches to the front of the gun, to adding up to twice that. Check out the various screencaps. The shortest one is the one used to 'kill' the monitors in the corridor at the end, whilst the longest is in the 'lobby' scene when Preston takes up his classic kata stance. One of the guns is longer than the other in that one shot unless I'm much mistaken. Real-world explanations are many, but in the context of the movie, the cleric guns could be custom made for 1st/2nd class clerics to custom lengths and options. This follows the idea posted above. However, check out the scene where Preston knocks Brandts gun high to save Mary when she goes for the sweeper's gun. The hammer on the gun changes from a standard Beretta 92 hammer to a hollow 'Vertec' style one. Another discrepancy are the trigger guards in the close-up sleeve-reloading scene. The foreground gun (actually a gas-pipe prop gun) has the modified rectangular guard, whilst the far (functional) gun has the original curved Beretta guard. As a final aside, look closely at Prestons guns at different points (namely when he does the upwards/downwards opposing gun kata pose defending the dog, and you'll see paint chips on the barrel modifications, as well as deformed trigger guards. This is likely due to the use aluminium mod parts to save weight and allow easy CNC machining, but the slim trigger guard obviously took some knocks in filming. I know, I am tragic, but I'm only coming up to 8 viewings of EQ, so I can't be that bad, right? Right??
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Post by JenGe on Jan 9, 2004 12:14:37 GMT -5
I know, I am tragic, but I'm only coming up to 8 viewings of EQ, so I can't be that bad, right? Right?? Only 8!!?? Slacker!!
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Post by Jon on Jan 9, 2004 12:38:48 GMT -5
I can't win, I'm too sad for real life, and not dedicated enough for EQ fandom
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Post by Rymel on Jan 10, 2004 18:26:01 GMT -5
y'know i have no real excuse for forgetting the training session...you're right, he got in some pretty good hits, and it's clear from his stance that he's a pure offensive swordsman, and it looks a little closer to european style, which utilized power over speed. and i agree that his coming to terms with feeling allowed some of those hits, Brandt was working on shock value statements it seemed. Just the guilt within himself was enough to make him hold back, IMHO. and i don't remember the scene where Brandt fires at Mary for some stupid reason...some fan i am eh?! i blame it on the week i spent watching the gun kata scenes alone ;D
i don't know about overcommitting his attack, because the gap between his rush and preston's closing attack was quite large in terms of CQB, and both could have seen something coming in that seemingly small amount of time. i kind of attributed Brandt's sudden defeat to Preston being in his zero-mindset and the possibility that one of the 2 initial slashes to the upper body to release the gun harnesses struck something vital, causing Brandt to flinch and giving Preston another split second to put another move in.
i don't know all that much about guns either to be honest, Libby, but i do know a few things here and there. glad the thread piqued your interest!
pyro, even with the numbers in that building, a cleric wouldn't be intimidated enough to dismiss his weapon of choice. their weapons hold about 16 rounds each right? 32 rounds with at least 1 reload each is more than enough for cleanup work, since the sweepers had already been through.
Jon, the barrel length difference could've been because one gun was his while the other was DuPont's. i can't say for the rest, but you've given me quite a lot of information on those guns, so i must thank you. the up-down gun pose i believe is supposed to be a yin-yang pose, btw.
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Post by pyro on Jan 10, 2004 19:21:14 GMT -5
pyro, even with the numbers in that building, a cleric wouldn't be intimidated enough to dismiss his weapon of choice. their weapons hold about 16 rounds each right? 32 rounds with at least 1 reload each is more than enough for cleanup work, since the sweepers had already been through. true, thats why i like your explaination better
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Post by Rymel on Jan 10, 2004 20:14:19 GMT -5
aw, and i thought you just hated me ;D
oh yea Jon i honestly think the clerics customize their weapons too. just because you're on prozium doesn't mean you can't desire performance suited to your needs...
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Post by arcade on Jan 11, 2004 9:17:19 GMT -5
My thoughts on the sleeve holsters.
I think the sleeve holsters are something unique to Preston. We only see Preston use them, and everyone else in the movie that wittnesses the action seems shocked. Also, a good indicator that the sleeve holsters are not standard issue is the fact he got into the polygraph test with them on in the first place. Preston probablly had them made, or made them himself in an effort to "be more effiecent".
He cuts the guns from Brandts sides, not his arms, if you notice the fall off from under his coat in that scene, more proof that the sleeve holsters are unique to Preston.
As far as the guns changing type/shape/length. It is still my firm belief that the Cleric Berettas are not functional. in that the guns used in the close up scenes do not fire. if you watch most of the scenes closely, you'll notice that it's all minor CG and camera tricks. the sleeve reload was a fast fuzzy zoom from non working cleric model to the normal breach of a 92fs (noted in the fact you can see the standard curved trigger guard and intact front sight in the close up. the fast zoom back out. they had a shoestring budget, i'm sure they didn't have the money to make as many functional weapons as they needed, plus the Gunkata places the weapon very close to the user, whcih would result in burns from case ejection and powder burns, as well as deafness over time due to the closeness to the head that some moves require. it's just safer for the actor and more econmical for the production to not use firing weapons.
Just my two cents
Arcade
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Post by Rymel on Jan 11, 2004 15:38:04 GMT -5
yes we only see preston using it, but preston is also the only cleric first class we see, and we're not even sure how many ranks are between cleric and cleric first class, and if those ranks are issued the holsters. but barring that, the possibility preston had it custom made is iffy. who would make it without reporting it a la 1984? certainly not at home, where his children would have reported (he could have made it prior to his wife's combustion). i think the polygraph scene's just a plot hole, since he wouldn'tve gotten past the metal detectors with his weapons unless cleric's weapons were completely plastic and carbon fiber with ceramic barrel and ammo casing, and i don't even think any companies are trying that now. but aside from that, the holsters COULD get past security points since i don't think they have any metal in them at all, and it doesn't seem like like any of the personnel do anything besides stand there and guard, so no pat downs. does he cut them from his sideS? i forget, and i'm not home right now so i can't go and check. but how would brandt draw them quickly then? the jackets are never open. it's kinda funny how you go to discuss the holsters in the first two paragraphs, then talk abou thow the weapons themselves are props. i was just throwing around the idea going on if libria WAS real, that's all. theorizing. it's fun to think about seeing how the tetragrammaton works in the film. powder burn wouldn't really be an issue since the barrel would be away from the user, nearest the arms if anything and even then it'd only hit the clothing, which could be treated to resist that. case ejection burns they can learn to ignore through training, and that only happens if the casing STAYS there. if it bounces off it should bother them. their skins hould be conditioned to take a slight burn as nothing anyway i can't argue the deafness issue however. but i don't think deafness was an issue for them. libria was founded shortly after the last world war, and the movie takes place not long after. did you see any old clerics? maybe they didn't live that far even if the tetragrammaton was that old. but i recall preston saying he was a predawn witness or something or other. also i don't think the over the head movements were used all that often anyway. it's not like the decibels of your beretta going off near your head is much different from a room full of automatic weapons firing anyway (sweepers). my two cents :]
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Post by arcade on Jan 11, 2004 17:30:53 GMT -5
i was touching on serveral subjects in the thread is all, that's why the post jumped around hehe.
i still think that the polygraph scene is the best indicator that only Preston had the holsters. It's too major a logical flaw if they expected to just take him into custody to leave him armed at all. so if they knew about the holsters they would have had him relinquish them like his sword.
on to the drawing issues. Brandt and Preston both demostrate that the cleric coats have slits cut in them that they draw from. Preston does it at the begining, and then with the sweepers he pistol whips, and Brandt does it when he turns preston in.
The props part was in response to someone earlier in the thread (can't remember who off hand, i just woke up) commenting about the different looking Cleric pistols, there's really nothing canon to explain that, and it is a product of film editing, so i was just explaining the "real" why.
hope that clears my my thought process a little bit,
Arcade
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Post by Rymel on Jan 11, 2004 17:54:42 GMT -5
i see your point, but even still it should've set off the metal detectors :] and there wasn't much shock value for the DRAWING, rather the zero mindset. but you're right they would've taken it away. it seems to me they only did a visual inspection of him, and unlike the black uniform there aren't gunflaps to reach into so they probably assumed he was unarmed. strange they didn't pat him down...
was it a gunflap? i thought it was just a pocket. i'll have to rewatch..
and i think i first brought up different lengths, but not in your context. i was just saying if it was a real society the possibility of cusomization would be present.
thanks for clearing things up btw.
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Post by pyro on Jan 11, 2004 19:41:34 GMT -5
i still think that the polygraph scene is the best indicator that only Preston had the holsters. It's too major a logical flaw if they expected to just take him into custody to leave him armed at all. so if they knew about the holsters they would have had him relinquish them like his sword. preston didnt go through the metal detectors yet. i have a theory that all first class cerics are issued arm extending hoisters. these first class clerics also have two sets of guns that only a few know about [like other clerics] thats why everyone is in shock when they come out and that there goining to die
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Post by Rymel on Jan 11, 2004 19:57:13 GMT -5
he didn't? my mistake then. but what you were saying about two sets of guns was the basis of this entire thread i believe. i'm not sure about the only select few have knowledge of it thing though. but i'm pretty sure they're issued their standard service pistols and they're allowed to carry or are issued secondary pistols, like the spike pistols. i'd like to hear more of your theories though, pyro.
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JonF
Resistance Member
Posts: 61
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Post by JonF on Jan 12, 2004 6:14:15 GMT -5
No problem Rymel, thought I'd finally register too so an official hello to everyone! Arcade, you're right to an extent; some of the guns were non-blowback 'gas pipes' mocked up as guns, some were solid 'movie guns' like the one with the AR-15 selector switch (check out the ejection port/slide interface; there's no gap), but some were actually functional, notably the one that kills Shepherd, and believe it or not, the one that gets the zoom close-up in the lobby reload sequence. You can see it in this wallpaper; www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/Wallpaper71.htm in empty, slide-locked state. I believe it to be functional for the very reason that the trigger guard *is* unmodified, and the front sight blade is on the end of the donor gun's slide as well as on the end of the compensator. Also, in some scenes, again, the slides aren't blowing back, but many scenes were shot with functional modified weapons. Of course, the muzzle flashes were usually added in CG regardless, to provide the cool tetra effect. Just to clarify; I was proposing that there was on-screen evidence for more 'non-standard issue' equipment, notably various lengths of barrel on the sidearms. [edit] they're definitely different lengths. check www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/Wallpaper7.htm - one of Preston's lobby pistols is markedly longer than the other, and the little images around this wallpaper show the other props vary in length. It would make sense that more accomplished Clerics would have the skill and strength to wield longer, more accurate versions. PS I'm in the late stages of building a home-grown airsoft Cleric pistol due to missing out on the cool expensive ones here in the UK. I'm using plastic modelling clay (heat-hardened) and carving and sanding it by hand. It's looking good, and I'll try and post pics if anyone's interested. Should be finished by the end of the week. Now you see why I've focussed on the different props so much!
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Post by Rymel on Jan 12, 2004 15:55:23 GMT -5
well said, jonf, and welcome!
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Post by Walldude on Jan 13, 2004 5:06:28 GMT -5
preston didnt go through the metal detectors yet. Pyro is right, in the DVD directors commentary Wimmer said that two scenes were cut out of the film that established that the metal detectors were at the entrance to the next chamber of Fathers office, Preston would have gone through them if he had passed the polygraph test. Also, didn't Brandt kill the guy who fell into Prestons arms during the sweeper raid that takes place after Preston stopped his dose? That would add another time he used his gun... Welcome to the new faces ;D
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JonF
Resistance Member
Posts: 61
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Post by JonF on Jan 13, 2004 6:17:58 GMT -5
Thanks Walldude. Brandt killed the sense offender that landed on Preston with a sweeper's G36 assault rifle, not his sidearms. Apart from trying to kill Mary, I don't think he actually fires his guns, just poses with them!
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 13, 2004 11:14:29 GMT -5
^^^ NOPE... brandt never fires his gun besides the scene w/ mary.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 13, 2004 12:36:16 GMT -5
to those of you with the DVD::: watch the movie with the directors commentary AND the commentary with the director and producer, they explain A LOT of this stuff thats in this thread
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