Is Gun Kata Original??

[JenGe]

This was originally posted in the guestbook and I thought that it would make for an interesting discussion so I'm reposting it here...

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professor

GunKata is not original idea. Identical martial art is used in Cyberpunk 2020 Role Playing Game where its called GUN-FU. "GUN FU - Completely geared around mastery of the handgun, this form makes a firearm truly an extension of the user. Students are only taught the basics of surviving a gunfight - stay constantly moving, fire till your opponent is dead, (preferably from as close a distance as possible) count your shots, when your out don't hesitate to find another weapon instead of taking the time to reload yours (the dead guy on the floor won't be needing his anymore right) if your hit don't think about it till your dead or your enemies are, never panic, and above all keep your opponent on the defensive. Once a student has learned the basics the only way for him to advance in his art is through combat, so beginners don't stay beginners long, they are either killed or they become better. A master is a truly magnificent sight in a gun battle.". Btw. very nice page

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So guys...what say you...My thoughts pending...

[-mark-]

From the standpoint of film I would say its original cause a role playing game doesn't really count.....I had never seen anything like it in film before....the only thing even close would be some John Woo films but even that is not the same as it was in EQ so I think it is original in that sense.........did that all make sense??>>>

[arcade]

I would have to say that the idea of Gun-kata isn't original, two fisted akimbo action has been seen alot in various media, but i think what we can all agree on is that the style of the Gun-kata in EQ is well beyond what we've seen before. It's not original, but it certainly got taken to the next level both visually and as an art.


and since i'm a huge role playing fan. i'm glad to find out about gun fu in cyberpunk, i've been looking for a game to try and recreate the cleric in. and this works out nicely since my friends have recently expressed an interest in CP2020. Time to find some books.

Arcade

[JenGe]

Nouse makes sense to me.

I'm trying to remember any film I've seen hand to hand gun combat in?? None come to mind and if I'm missing something please correct me.

RPG is one thing but to actually have that translated for the first time to film is original to that medium. I'm not familiar enough with Cyberpunk 2020 to make a comparison with it but if this concept has been around for over 10 years I'm surprised that someone has not taken the initiative sooner to put it on the screen.

(FYI - I found a 1993 copyright date for Cyberpunk 2020 but I think that was a second printing.)

[arcade]

I may be a little off, but i'm getting an "all or nothing" vibe here from the thread.

Just about any hong kong blood opera has gunfights mixed with martial arts. The concept of using a gun in hand to hand is not new to the media. EQ just raised the bar to a whole new level, showing us an extension, a conclusion if you will, of gunfights in the media of film.

Pick up just about any Chow Yun Fat, or Jet Li import film and you will see primative (by comparison of EQ) hand to hand gun fighting. Is the base concept original? no, is it refined to a whole new level in EQ? absolutely.

Arcade

[Fishback]

From the description in the movie gun kata is based on the position of opponents and their "statistically predictable geometric distribution" and keeping out of the statistically predictable areas of return fire.

Most movies have kept gun fighting to personal ability combined with training where gun kata adds scientific reasoning to avoid getting shot and to aid in returning fire in the most efficient way possible.

So i think Gun Kata is pretty original.

[MrsPreston]

I agree with Fishback, u put just what I was thinking ;D

[arcade]

i still think the core concept isn't original in various media including film, but that EQ took it to amazing new levels.

And such is the power of oppinions, we're all allowed to have one


Arcade

[JenGe]

Its always fun to have opinions. Discussions would be a bore without them. I knew not everyone would agree when I first posted the subject here. That's what makes it interesting.

[professor]

Hello

I want to say few words about my post where i said about Cuberpunk's Gunf-Fu. I think that Gun-Kata in Equilibrium is author self-conscious refer to Cyberpunk, like words of Morpheus "welcome to the desert of real" in Matrix are conscious refer to Jean Baudrillard works.

Or scene with burning books and artworks in Equilibrium - reference to Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451".

So that's why i wanted to call your attention on this detail

[e-mail]

[kingdaywalker]

After hearing Kurt talk about it at the Q & A, I feel that the look of Gun-Kata is completely orginal. He just wanted to see cool looking gun fights in movies. Maybe the science of Gun-Kata and Gun-Fu are similar, but as far as i am concerned it is original.

[skippythegator]

just a "hypothetical" question -

would any martial artists here be interested in extrapolating/developing a form of gun-kata based on real techniques?

[Badash55]

Guest-arcade said:

and since i'm a huge role playing fan. i'm glad to find out about gun fu in cyberpunk, i've been looking for a game to try and recreate the cleric in. and this works out nicely since my friends have recently expressed an interest in CP2020. Time to find some books.

Arcade

Yeah, that'd be really cool. Does anyone know where I can buy this at?

[JenGe]

Hi Badash55 & welcome,

So far I've found the Main Rule Book for you. I'm checking to see if I can find any thing else.

[JenGe]

I just found this Google listing that also might be helpful...

Cyberpunk 2020 Web Directory

[Badash55]

JenGe said:

Hi Badash55 & welcome,

So far I've found the Main Rule Book for you. I'm checking to see if I can find any thing else.

Cool. Thanks a heap.

[Damen]

I am a martial artist. From a martial arts standpoint, the Gun Kata, while very very very cool, is fairly unrealistic. At least, with how it is done in EQ. That being said, I DONT think it's impossible. I, for one, would be quite interested in developing such a system in real life.

-Damen

aim: Aeveralon

[SkyStreak]

For those of you who are RPG fans, and want the absolute closest thing I can find to Gun Kata, you should check out Mystic China a sourcebook for Ninjas and Superspies Revised, published by Palladium Books.

In it, you will find the Triad Assassin martial art on page 201. This martial art not only increases the accuracy of the user's shots, it also allows him/her to do considerably more damage with their guns than that calibre ammo should do (I believe the rationale is that the ammo still does the same amount of damage, but the shooter is so accurate that it hits more vulnerable areas). It also gives the user the special ability of Pistol Whip.

The only major difference that I can see between it and Gun Kata as it appears in Equilibrium is that the description states that the user can only 9mm pistols with a minimum ammo capacity of 13 (it would be extremely easy for a GM to ignore this though. Also, it doesn't account for a Cleric's dodging ability (I would probably give him/her the super ability of Extraordinary Physical Prowess from Heroes Unlimited Second Edition, which is compatible with N&SS.)

You can buy both N&SS and MC at Palladium's website, or you might be able to pick them up cheap on eBay.

(In case you are wondering, N&SS is a very cool game to play a martial arts oriented RPG. MY only complaint is that the martial arts have a tendency to overpower the spy stuff, but it isn't that big of a deal.)

[skippythegator]

Hey Damen!

I'm a martial artist too (hapkido & JKD) - would you like to discuss the possibilities of gunkata? ;D

[bohica]

Let's not forget Stevie King's Gunslingers. Although less martial arts based there are similarities...TEXT

[Cruis.In]

being someone who has trained with weapons. small arms up to m16. i know the gun kata while highly unlikely is not impossible.

people miss at very very close ranges on still targets when not trained adequately. moving targets is another thing now. especially fast moving. and not in a predictable movement, like one direction running.

[Kintaro]

People have to remember it's just a movie. But the base idea of the gun kata is not original. Strategic positioning of attack and defense, degrees and range, stances, ect... It's literally taken from Shaolin and chinese forms of kung fu with Japanese influence. The director was obviously influenced by those styles, he just decided to attach a gun to the end of a practicioner's hand. If anyone is furthur interested I would recommend books on wing chun kung fu, bruce lee's tao of jeet kune do and any japanese hard style karate.

[ClericRyan]

bottom line

EQ was the first movie to bring Gun Kata to the screen and explain it on a scientific level

Is it an original idea? That question would need to be more specific, as to what you consider original. Obviously some of the moves, ideals, and the original idea came from other ideas in the martial arts world, and weapons combat in general. but did anyone else make a kick ass movie featuring it?

no

[Covax]

The only scene that comes close as an 'ancestor' to Gun Kata is Art of War with Wesly Snipes. The hallway-pistol fight at the end was the only highlight of the film... but now after seeing Equilibrium...

[ClericRyan]

No t Gun Kata but manny gangster movies have has guys that use two guns and kill a lot of other guys, namly "Last Man Standing" with Bruce Willis

[Cleric Zakk R Droddy]

However, I'm not sure whether or not 'Gun-Kata' is original or not, I'm sure it was based on Kata. Kata was: A member of a class of 14th-century Japanese mercenary agents who were trained in the martial arts and hired for covert operations such as assassination and sabotage.

Though, I'm not too sure the basic details on Kata, I do know that much. However, I'm pretty sure that Kata was pretty much the same as Gun-Kata; defensive and offensive wise. Though...I'm pretty sure, the samurai's used...katanas?

[GunDamd]

Yo guys, in my opinion the concept of Gun-Kata, or gun-fu, isnt original. In a few Hong Kong action movies have characters that have knowledge of a "Gun Art", such as God Of Gamblers:The early years. In this set of movies there is a character called Churng San or God of Guns, he uses a technique which is similar to Gun-Kata, but not as refined as in EQ.

I have watched many, many Hong Kong action films for over 20 years, from the early, classic movies, like Dreadnaught, Magnificent Butcher etc, to modern Hong Kong action flicks like Gen-X cops. The closest thing I have seen to the way Gun-Kata looks is in CityHunter, even then its not as stylish as the Devil May Cry stylings of EQ.

In regard to the concept of Gun-Kata, no its not original, but in regards to the way its portrayed in EQ, its highly original. Top marks for flavour, however I reckon it could have been pushed beyond what it was in EQ to a next level.

I think that although it seems unlikely, I reckon Gun-Kata could be developed in real life. It would take a very LONG time, and many deaths from experimentation, but it could be done.

Just like in a fight with Joe Bob, the first place people statistically attack, is the head, after recording and watching thousands of firefights, you probably could get a statistic of most probable place people will aim for, then its a case of moving all the parts of most hit into another position away from where they would statistically fire, whilst optimising your aim position.

Then after a few firefights with someone moving into this position, and seeing where people will fire next, after the position shift, you could get the statistical target for assailants again, then you repeat the process over and over, till you get a solid repetoire of stances and evasion movements. Then you turn these movements into a form, then form a philosophy that best fits the mind frame needed for the movements, and how to apply the movements.

Possibly Gun-Kata maybe different from traditional martial arts teaching in that it has a stance or set of movements for every situation.
If then the practitioner comes up against a situation not trained for, then the fighter must extrapolate from all his forms the best attack/defence method for the situation.

Oh well, I have gone off the rails, with the last few bits, but I do reckon Gun-Kata could be develped for real, it'll take a HELL OF A LONG TIME and MANY DEATHS to develop, but it could be.

[K3YM4K3R]

not at all your ideas are very interesting, but although time consuming, people would not need to die to perfect the technique, if you could motivate the participants enough (offer money if you can shoot the cleric kindof thing) and give them weapons like tranquilisers, no seriously you could refine such a deadly martial art without risking lives, it may sound daft but hey i would be willing to try i love the idea of being able to predict what someones next move was and then compensate for it. anyway now ill sit back and wait as everyone ridicules me as some nutter who likes the idea of being shot with darts, which i dont

[Trinity]

K3YM4K3R said:

anyway now ill sit back and wait as everyone ridicules me as some nutter who likes the idea of being shot with darts, which i dont

Hey, K3YM4K3R...I really like your name!

Or, maybe they could use paint ball guns... ;D

[JenGe]

Trinity said:

Hey, K3YM4K3R...I really like your name!

Or, maybe they could use paint ball guns... ;D

Images of T3 flashing through my brain... ;D