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Post by Trinity on Jul 30, 2003 20:05:30 GMT -5
Later, in the factory raid he beats to death the other soldiers as opposed to killing them 'cos he knows that he would then certainly be traced via the bullets and his verifiable presence at the location (with the previous sweeper team he can always so he was elsewhere and how would anyone say otherwise). Wait, I thought he used the gun butts to beat the soldiers to death because when they arrive, they say, "We heard shots." I thought he used these to eliminate the gun shot sound. Did anyone else notice this? I'm not saying your theory as to the gun swap is incorrect, but it was just this portion of which I was unsure of his intent.
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Post by Kuririn on Jul 31, 2003 10:33:06 GMT -5
I've just watched EQ through with a print out of all the comments so far on this subject. GunKata Sensei is right with his sequence of events. the swap is made at the execution and then when the 'sweep' is made on the clerics side arm, it is Brandt that has it. And thus Preston is able to blame Brandt for the killings. This was all planned of course, and the gun swap opportunity was all part of getting Preston to believe that he could get to father by bringing in the resistance.
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Post by Cruis.In on Jul 31, 2003 14:52:36 GMT -5
the gun shots were used by the first set of soldiers. remember they bust through a door and 2 soldiers came at them, john didnt fire his guns the whole scene, when he broke the soldiers arm the other one got up and started firing, and he blocked away the rifle each time....
then another set bursts through the door behind him and said, whats happening cleric we heard gunshots.
then he beats em to death,. heh which is quite violent in my opinion.
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trench
Sense Offender
Posts: 9
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Post by trench on Jul 31, 2003 15:08:12 GMT -5
In the execution scene, Brandt gives Preston the perfect opportunity for Preston to get rid of his own gun. Hence, 1. saves dog 2. goes out to Nether to get rid of dog 3. sweeper team arrives and gets shot 4. raid on factory 5. Preston beats to death a bunch of guys knowing his bullets have already been found in other Librian soldiers but this time, he is at the scene in front of others. 6. Preston takes the oportunity given to him by Brandt to switch the guns. therefore - no hole in the script. Except, according to the tracking system the gun that shot the sweeper team was Brandt's. I don't think Preston would have claimed Brandt did it unless he knew he had set him up. Here's my theory, Preston swapped a gun at both opportunities. Obviously, each Cleric is issued two guns, however, to keep costs down (this is a government operation remember - ;D ) only ONE gun contains the tracking system. Before the dog scene Preston switched his traceable gun with Brandt's. So when he kills the sweeper team he uses Brandt's traceable gun and his personal second gun. Then during the execution scene he realized that Brandt had given him his own gun back, so he switched back at this point. Which was probably wise, as he had only had Brandt's gun for about 24 hours, and eventually Brandt would likely look at the butt of his gun and realize a switch had occured. Of course Preston was banking on the fact that they'd just use the telemetry system and not do a ballistics check to determine who had shot the sweepers (otherwise they'd have discovered that Preston's second gun was used to shoot the sweeper team).
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Post by aaaahhhh on Jul 31, 2003 18:26:31 GMT -5
yes the gun must have been swapped earlier when preston shot the sweeper team he handed back his gun after swapping it for his, otherwise it would have given his scheme away if they found preston's gun on the other guy.
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K3YM4K3R
Resistance Member
DuPont: "Is it really worth the price" Preston: "I pay it gladly"
Posts: 14
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Post by K3YM4K3R on Jul 31, 2003 19:40:16 GMT -5
this is strange there seem to be different accounts of what people have seen have some edits of the film been changed somehow or are people just explaining the plot sequences differently?
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trench
Sense Offender
Posts: 9
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Post by trench on Aug 1, 2003 15:58:12 GMT -5
this is strange there seem to be different accounts of what people have seen have some edits of the film been changed somehow or are people just explaining the plot sequences differently? There are no different edits of the film. Apparantly in the intial script, however, Brandt flashes back to the scene by the car as the time at which the swap occurs, not the execution scene. We're probably also not being 100% consistent in explaining to which scene we're refering.
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K3YM4K3R
Resistance Member
DuPont: "Is it really worth the price" Preston: "I pay it gladly"
Posts: 14
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Post by K3YM4K3R on Aug 1, 2003 16:04:51 GMT -5
yeah i think the hole consistency thing is very likely but (and this goes out to everyone, and maybe a new topic should be started) why would preston have a reason to swap guns so early on?
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trench
Sense Offender
Posts: 9
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Post by trench on Aug 1, 2003 16:58:13 GMT -5
yeah i think the hole consistency thing is very likely but (and this goes out to everyone, and maybe a new topic should be started) why would preston have a reason to swap guns so early on? Well, Preston was really starting to feel things now. He had just been "busted" by Brandt with the book, recall how this had led him to question then kill Partridge. He may have had a thought to visit the Nethers afterhours, and since he knew his gun contained an internal homing system, used this opportunity to swap weapons with Brandt.
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K3YM4K3R
Resistance Member
DuPont: "Is it really worth the price" Preston: "I pay it gladly"
Posts: 14
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Post by K3YM4K3R on Aug 1, 2003 17:07:00 GMT -5
thats a good idea but i just watched the film again and he picks a gun up off the car bonnet there was only one gun there, that was brandt's
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K3YM4K3R
Resistance Member
DuPont: "Is it really worth the price" Preston: "I pay it gladly"
Posts: 14
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Post by K3YM4K3R on Aug 1, 2003 17:08:55 GMT -5
but why doesnt brandt have his gun at the time
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K3YM4K3R
Resistance Member
DuPont: "Is it really worth the price" Preston: "I pay it gladly"
Posts: 14
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Post by K3YM4K3R on Aug 1, 2003 17:11:06 GMT -5
ive found another plot hole, doh im unknowingly becoming a critic of a film i love
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Post by Trinity on Aug 1, 2003 19:53:35 GMT -5
thats a good idea but i just watched the film again and he picks a gun up off the car bonnet there was only one gun there, that was brandt's No, I believe there are two guns on the hood of the car, although we only see Preston load and hand one gun to Brandt.
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Post by Ted Forrester on Aug 2, 2003 10:23:25 GMT -5
There is one way the plot could work, go back to the raid where Preston takes the dog, he gives Brandit a gunn from the car bonnet, that could have been his, and then at the executions where Preston makes Brandit take it, he returns Brandit's gun.
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Post by Pandilex on Aug 8, 2003 10:06:55 GMT -5
Hello, just caught this site in passing and I noticed the problem with only 1 gun being swapped in the execution scene. The theory about only 1 gun being marked is nice, this would help it to make sense. I'll watch it again in a bit, see if I can figure out if there are two gun swaps. Also you said there were no edits - where did this script come from? Hey Tzen, since it'll take me awhile to actually get the script on site here is the section... (You'll have to click it to see it) In my version of the film , it says: I know...it's hard to believe...that a Cleric of the TetraGrammaton...could turn his back on everything that he has been taught..to become associated with the resistance...even becoming a champion in its underground...but it's true... I promised I would bring you that man. And I have. Which is radically different to what you said. Also he says the trace shows it was your gun in the nether with the sweepers - not guns!
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Post by JenGe on Aug 8, 2003 11:01:11 GMT -5
Ok...I'm confused (seems to be my mode today). Was that post to me or and amalgamation??
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Post by Cruis.In on Aug 8, 2003 22:48:57 GMT -5
wrong wrong...
preston picks up a gun, and mag, loads it, hands to brandt. then picks up another gun and mag, but doesnt load this one and holds it and walks out the screen and the scene cuts to the dogs.
two guns were on the hood please!!!!!!! also did you see how brandt looks at him and how he holds brandt gaze during this scene?
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Post by Trinity on Aug 11, 2003 21:54:48 GMT -5
wrong wrong... preston picks up a gun, and mag, loads it, hands to brandt. then picks up another gun and mag, but doesnt load this one and holds it and walks out the screen and the scene cuts to the dogs. two guns were on the hood please!!!!!!! also did you see how brandt looks at him and how he holds brandt gaze during this scene? Completely. Yes, thank you. There are two guns on the hood and Preston does as you describe. And the gaze. Preston knows Brandt is not trustworthy, and the gun swap could very well have taken place then.
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Post by DeadCleric on Aug 20, 2003 18:22:01 GMT -5
yes and he swaped his other gun before the execution of the offenders ("i think its best if you have it")
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Post by Cleric Baltaak on Aug 20, 2003 19:11:39 GMT -5
As for this, I'm going with ballistics for tracking a weapon, as the gun was not left behind in the Nethers
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Post by Just a nobody on Aug 22, 2003 13:32:21 GMT -5
This made me realize something: If their guns are anything even close to a normal pistol, the part of the gun where the nasty pointy things come out from (like in the beating scene) and where the cleric's name is printed on, is not, I repeat NOT actually part of the gun itself, but the magazine!
Whaddaya think of that, ppl? ;D
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Post by Cleric Baltaak on Aug 22, 2003 15:19:18 GMT -5
This made me realize something: If their guns are anything even close to a normal pistol, the part of the gun where the nasty pointy things come out from (like in the beating scene) and where the cleric's name is printed on, is not, I repeat NOT actually part of the gun itself, but the magazine! Whaddaya think of that, ppl? ;D This would re-emphasize my ballistics theory. The bullets are tracked, not the gun
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Post by Derek on Sept 14, 2003 11:31:55 GMT -5
Okay, I like this theory (in adjuct to the only one gun is tracked theory), here's why:
So the clips/bullets are tracked, this emphasizes the car scene a lot more--they switch guns (not that it matters, because it's only the clips that matter). So, now Preston has a single clip of tracked ammunition from Brandt. He kills the sweepers, and for the sake of argument let's say he expends the entire clip from Brandt's gun. Now, he kills no more people until the bludgeon fight--at which he has to use the butts simply because he has no bullets that aren't his own.
Now, at the execution scene Brandt says something along the lines of "If your weapon is empty use mine." Which means one or both of two things to me: 1) Brandt saw the bludgeoned men and assumed that Preston had run out of ammuntion 2) Brandt knew Preston had taken one of his own clips and now had none after the sweeper fight (and it was just a jab at Preston without him knowing).
Now, to address the actual swap at the execution scene: I think it was either mostly symbolic or just a continuity error--I was thinking that maybe the only reason they used that scene INSTEAD of the car swap scene was because he DID switch hands (whether or not the script called for it) and the audience would associate that with a swap even if it wasn't supposed to be. If these aren't true, that's the biggest hole in my theory, because he would have no reason to switch back (assuming that Brandt had probably already shot all of the ammunition contained in the one Preston clip he had and disposed of it.) Although, giving Brandt his old gun back (possibly STILL with the expended Brandt clip in it) could explain his reason to swap--still iffy on that scene.
When Brandt finally brings him in, he probably did exactly what Preston said (took his guns away when he arrested him) and seeing Preston's name on the clip was simply in Brandt's realization process (that the clips could simply have been switched)--to make it believeable to Preston that his plan had gone off.
I'm still confused, but I'm more content with this than I have been before.
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Post by GreyFox on Sept 14, 2003 14:30:04 GMT -5
A possible theory on tracking is that the bullets have an microsized engraving of the cleric's id number. So its not the gun that is trackable but the bullets that it carries.
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Post by BMaloney on Sept 15, 2003 19:43:09 GMT -5
Gack! This argument always drives me nuts! I'd like to make an executive order NEVER to speak of it again lol!
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Post by Cruis.In on Sept 18, 2003 3:46:55 GMT -5
haha, coming here now and seeing this up the board again, I quite agree.
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Post by Coolhand on Sept 18, 2003 5:11:52 GMT -5
Gack! This argument always drives me nuts! I'd like to make an executive order NEVER to speak of it again lol! It is a dark room. People in old, rough clothing sit around a table and speak with each other in hushed tones. "But if Preston swapped with Brandt the at the raid, how come he was tracked in the Nethers?" askes a voice. "No, no, you're getting the wrong part of the film for the that. It's an editing error." a second voice insists. "What shoud happen is-" The door to the room explodes down, a single figure sufing the slab of wood as it skids across the floor. The lights flick off as the figure rises with blazing weapons in each hand, hot lead, muzzle flashes and shell casings flying through the room. The Swap-Offenders never stood a chance. "I NEVER WANT TO HEAR THIS TOPIC MENTIONED AGAIN!" the irate Cleric screems in to the darkness. "JUST LET IT LIE, OK!?!?!?!??!?!?" He turns and storms out of the room, looking for more Swap-Offenders to take down. How long? How long before he gets them all?
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Post by JenGe on Sept 18, 2003 6:06:06 GMT -5
How long? How long before he gets them all? BAHAHAHAHAH!!! ROTFAGL!!! ;D
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Post by Trinity on Sept 19, 2003 20:01:56 GMT -5
It is a dark room. People in old, rough clothing sit around a table and speak with each other in hushed tones. "But if Preston swapped with Brandt the at the raid, how come he was tracked in the Nethers?" askes a voice. "No, no, you're getting the wrong part of the film for the that. It's an editing error." a second voice insists. "What shoud happen is-" The door to the room explodes down, a single figure sufing the slab of wood as it skids across the floor. The lights flick off as the figure rises with blazing weapons in each hand, hot lead, muzzle flashes and shell casings flying through the room. The Swap-Offenders never stood a chance. "I NEVER WANT TO HEAR THIS TOPIC MENTIONED AGAIN!" the irate Cleric screems in to the darkness. "JUST LET IT LIE, OK!?!?!?!??!?!?" He turns and storms out of the room, looking for more Swap-Offenders to take down. How long? How long before he gets them all? Oh, so well written! I love this! Yes, let's put this to rest. Please, Cleric, I comply, I comply.
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Post by Cleric Baltaak on Sept 20, 2003 0:56:06 GMT -5
I'm in total agreeance here, as well.
To put a nightcap on this issue, we should really find the editor. We should bring him here and show him that he has been the catalyst to many a sleepless night, filled with horrors and nightmares of the rasping sound of clips being slid into the pistol grip. The background is filled with murmurs and casual conversation too low to make out. Concentrating, you can hear the words "gun swap, gun swap, GUN SWAP, GUN SWAP..!!" Waking up in a cold sweat, you tear at the window covering to see the welcoming rays of the morning sun, but, oh no.......you are treated to reruns of the scenes where the gun swap might have taken place...........fast forward, rewind, slow-motion, back to rewind.......AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGHH!!!!!
Oh yeah, I wanna hurt the editor just a little ;D
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