Gun Kata-Fully Designed and Ready for Action

[ebime]

Kengou...I have to agree with you on the fact that people can't be predicted TO THE LEVEL PICTURED IN THE MOVIE. Besides that, there are relatively basic reactions : fight or flight syndrome for starters. Then, people usually turn directly away or directly towards a loud sound, so there you have a straight line of movement already. Again, NOT to the extent of the movie, but it would be interesting to really have a data bank on the subject to study. Unfortunatly, only the survvors tell their story and they are always the heroes of it, so...

Shadowdh...I was navy, armor and infantry (moved a lot!) and also LEO to some extent. I did get to play with all sorts of weapons also. Nope, there ain't no gun katas taught! Just having people hit the target was hard enough at times, so imagine having them a gun kata or two! Seriously, yes, tactics change over time, but not that much. It is mostly the part you use considering the change in mentalities which are different. Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that a general wrote a book on strategies 400BC and it still applies? We in the west (Europe, USA, etc.) mostly use was is known as 2nd generation warfare, and sometimes 3rd generation, while in the east, they have been using (and Germany too) 4th generation warfare for decades now. It is all a matter of approach, thinking and, let's be honest, technology and means.

I'm not claiming a gun kata could be as effective as in the movie, but I do think there is a basis from which to start. Also, if you noticed in the movie, Dupont is refering to the fact that there are MANY gun katas which, following the martial arts thinking, you would chose from depending on the situation at hand and your experience. It was never said in the movie that gun katas made the clerics invincible, just that it augmented their chances of hitting and not be hit.

What do you guys think? Is this a better explanation? I'm looking forward to see replies...

[ebime]

BTW, the general who wrote a book in 400BC I was refering to is "Sun Tsu", and the book is "The art of war". Sorry to have left that out.

[DemonEyedGunman]

ebime I agree with you on almost everything said in the last posts. I disagree with you on the technology thing though. It all depends on the situation at hand. Think about if you sent a small group of Spec Ops into a really dark room armed to the team with fully automatic weapons and night vision goggles against 2 highly trained swordsman. First off the night vision is nulled because it needs light to work. Infared is not safe enough for your own men in that kind of a situation. The soldiers would be making ALOT of noice with all their gear on. I know because I was Spec Ops. The swordsman would have HUGE advantages. Being silent, swift, and well trained so they learn to rely on things other than sight. The swordsman would massacre the soldiers and noone would even hear them die. Like I said it all depends on your current situation. The reason why Gun Kata doesn't exist or even if it did it would not be adopted by Police or Military because CQ(Close-Quarter) gun fighting barely goes on anymore. They are a bunch of cowards who hide behind little buttons and big bombs. If the war was ever brought RIGHT to, Let's say the United States doorstep, congress and everyone else would piss their pants because they can't bomb their own country. Tanks in their own streets? Unconstitutional!! Fighter Planes shooting up their own buildings? Never!! They would have NO idea of how to handle that situation because in reality they are spineless. Modern Militaries hide behind technology and so a CQ Gun Combat System would be worthless to them. Well that's my piece of info on that. Let me know if you have nay questions about my comments

[ebime]

Amen to that DeG! I agree with your SpecOps/Swordsmen idea, but you took a very specific situation, as you yourself have mentionned. I think we both agree otherwise. And as far as the US governemnt being unwilling to bomb a building with their own planes, the Pentagone event of 9-11 seems to suggest otherwise, but I see your point. They ARE hard at work to change (read erase) your Constitution though, and I find that scary enough already!

Care to start "talking" togheter via e-mail Deg?

[Observer]

First off the night vision is nulled because it needs light to work.

Gee DEG, when you were in "Spec Ops" the quartermaster never issued you a handy gadget called an "IR illuminator", did he?

Like these (which are wimpy civilian models, no less):
www.rfconcepts.co.uk/ir_lights.htm
An IR illuminator allows night vision gear to work in total darkness.

The "Spec Ops" quartermaster never issued you a set of AN/PVS-7 series night vision goggles, either.

Because they also include a built-in IR illuminator for viewing in total darkness.
www.aspecttechnology.com/nightvision.htm

Infared is not safe enough for your own men in that kind of a situation.

Oh dear. Looks like your "Spec Ops" commanders never handed you a copy of the "SMALL UNIT NIGHT FIGHTER MANUAL NO. 96-3".

That's a pity, really, because the manual is so secret, so classified, that it's available online to civilians.
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/call_96-3_hb963toc.htm

Time for some reality-kata. Okay, Spec Ops team... everyone open their Small Unit Night Fighter Manuals to Chapter 1.

Owning the night begins with you. Train to MOVE, SHOOT, and COMMUNICATE at night. Include the following in your training:

The tasks, in addition to those outlined in ARTEP 7-8, MTP DRILL, include the following:

(1) Operate AN/PVS-7/4.
www.x20.org/nightvision/pvs7.htm
(2) Zero AN/PAQ-4 to M16, M249, M60.
(3) Engage Targets with AN/PAQ-4 and AN/PVS-7/4.
(4) Control Organic Fires with Hand-held Laser Pointers.
(5) Operate Ir Target Pointer/Illuminator GCP-1A. (emphasis, mine)
(6) Navigate while Wearing AN/PVS-7B.

www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/call_96-3_chpt1.htm

I lost count how many times the words "IR flares", "IR chemlight bundles", "IR smoke screens", "IR etc." get mentioned over the next bunch of chapters along with what kinds of night vision gear the team should be using to see that IR.

But what if there's some people waiting in ambush in a dark room? (Like maybe two guys with swords?)

Good news, Spec Ops team! We are in luck!

The manual covers exactly the "dark room" scenario currently being discussed under Battle Drill 6a: ENTER A BUILDING AND CLEAR A ROOM".
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/call_96-3_cpt2bd6a.htm

PERFORMANCE MEASURES.
1. The fire team that initiates contact guides in on the team leader's AN/PAQ-4 and tracers and suppresses the enemy in and surrounding the building using their AN/PVS-7B, AN/PVS-4, and AN/PAQ-4.

Oooh, look! The room clearing team is supposed to use night vision gear (like the AN/PVS-7B, AN/PVS-4, and AN/PAQ-4) and IR illuminators (like the kind built into an AN/PVS-7B or the GCP-1A) after all! Looks like somebody forgot to tell DEG, doesn't it?

It gets better. It always does.

How does a real military unit clear a room? Okay, Spec Ops team, scroll on down to:

9. The lead soldier of the assaulting team cooks off a grenade and shouts, "Frag out," then throws the grenade into the building (ROE dependent).

10. After the grenade has detonated, the next soldier enters the building with ir flashlight taped to the barrel of his weapon (or ir source on NODs). (emphasis, mine) He positions himself to the left or right of the entrance against the wall and illuminates the area with the flashlight (emphasis, mine again)while simultaneously engaging identified or likely enemy positions with rapid, short bursts of automatic fire, and scans the room from left to right. The rest of the team provides immediate security around the building.
a. The size and shape of the room may cause the soldier entering the room to move to the left or right. For illustration purposes only, one set of directions is given. The first soldier in the room decides where the next soldier should position himself and gives the next command, NEXT MAN, RIGHT OR LEFT. All soldiers designated to enter or clear rooms should be task-organized with an ir flashlight.(emphasis, mine again)
b. Depending on the enemy situation, the size of entry, and the training of the squad, two soldiers can enter the room simultaneously after the grenade detonates. The soldier from the right side of the entry enters, fires from left to right, and moves to the right with his back to the wall. One soldier goes high, the other low, to prevent firing at each other.

That's how it's done in the real world by real military teams. They use night vision gear with IR illumination and they don't even go into the room until they've thrown a fragmentation grenade into it.

The soldiers would be making ALOT of noice with all their gear on. I know because I was Spec Ops.

They'll be making even more noise when they chuck a frag grenade into the room!

I'll leave it to everyone's good judgement whether or not the Demon Eyed Gunman really was "Spec Ops" considering he's succeeded in getting every single thing wrong, starting with how night vision gear works, the use of night vision gear during low/no light operations, or how a night fighting team clears a room.

The swordsman would have HUGE advantages.

"Huge advantages" like being outnumbered, being blind as bats against a team of trained soldiers who can see in the dark, and getting blasted by fragmentation grenades.

...and that's before the team enters the room. Then the swordsmen get cut to pieces with what the manual called "rapid, short bursts of automatic fire".

Being silent, swift, and well trained so they learn to rely on things other than sight.

...like maybe their hearing, which would be deafened after the blast of a fragmentation grenade.

...or maybe their sense of smell, which would be drenched with the stink of explosive fumes and dust.

...and let's not forget fragmentation grenades have one other charming quality: shrapnel. Nasty, high-temperature bits of metal whipping through the room and any human flesh that's in the way.

The swordsman would massacre the soldiers and noone would even hear them die.

...providing it happens during one of your keyboard-commando fantasies. In the real world, anyone in that room is going to be stumbling around in the dark, getting fragged with grenades, and then shot up with full-auto fire.

Well, there you have it, folks. A room clearing drill from a US military manual (almost 10 years out of date, no less) vs.former "Spec Ops" team member DEG.

Know what the sad part is? It's not even difficult to come up with this info. Then again, it helps if a cleric uses the Google-Kata.

[DemonEyedGunman]

Wow you just succeeded in making yourself look like one of those virtual tough guys you tried so hard to make me out to be. First off, you are wrong about many things. The main one being the grenade. The U.S Army uses a standard M67 Frag Grenade which has a 5' kill radius and a 15' possible injury radius. Hmm, that makes your statement concerning fragging a building, WHICH, I did not specify size of, kind of pointless. As for your statements on Night Vision it's true that these days there is a lot better gear, but I haven't used a pair of night vision goggles in a long time. To make it very clear as to my military experience which you are so knowledgeable about, I server 2 terms in Vietnam and was captain of a small Spec Ops Squad. Our gear wasn't quite as advanced as it is now so I will give you that point on night vision being in play. However, you will all your combat experience neglect a few things in your apparently believed, "full proof plan". The first one being cover, objects, obstructions, or obstacles that could be anywhere in this room of any size. As night vision is not as effective as you regular vision and your peripheral vision is also slightly lessened, any number of things could happen that you may not have time to respond to. Also I was speaking of TRAINED swordsman expecting an assault from a heavily armed special operations squad. Going back to your frag grenade comment, if the swordsman were intelligent they would use that to there advantage as it would create a crap load of smoke and obscure the soldiers vision. If you wanted to kill an entire Spec Ops unit in a no light scenario, them wearing night vision, all you'd have to do is through a Flash bang and you could kill them all with a knife. Provided that everything went right. WHICH, they don't. Things don't always go according to plan and you are NOT trained for any/ every situation in the military. Some situations can't be predicted or controlled and are not in your standard manuals. Anyone who has ever been in a combat situation know this. All I was saying is that if the situation was right, a small number of people with weapons that aren't top of the line could easily take out a larger group of people who have top of the line gear and weapons available to them. If you had any experience in the military they teach you that sometimes things don't go your way and bad things happen. Superior numbers doesn't mean squat, and that has been displayed countless times throughout history. What I was trying to do was make an isolated scenario to prove that numbers and technology don't always win. You however, tried to turn what I was saying into something it's not. I can read a lot of books and articles online too. That doesn't make me all knowing. Experience is what makes someone wise. I am not all knowing and I am willing to admit when I have made a mistake. You should think about trying to see where someone is coming from or what they are trying to explain, before you try to make an ass out of them and make yourself look intelligent. I apologize if that sounds rude, but I don't believe that I have overstepped the line on this post.

P.S. ebime that would be fine if we started talking via e-mail. I will send my e-mail address via PM.

[Observer]

Wow you just succeeded in making yourself look like one of those virtual tough guys you tried so hard to make me out to be.

Boy that "Virtual Tough Guy" charge I made really stuck to you if you're carrying it on from another thread. I certainly didn't say anything about you being a "virtual tough guy" here.

I know, that accusation scares the heck out of you because it's aimed at your #1 claim you keep repeating, "I was in spec ops..."

...and you know what, Demon?

I'm going to show you up as phony allll over again. Oh, yes I am!

Let's re-cap: When we last left our spec ops veteran, he was proven factually wrong by a US Army training manual he just learned about for the first time.

The U.S Army uses a standard M67 Frag Grenade which has a 5' kill radius and a 15' possible injury radius.

...not to mention a particularly nasty and defeaning blast. Mark off a 5' kill radius. That's a 10 foot diameter circle in a room. A 15' injury radius translates to a 30' foot circle in that same room. Anyone swordsmen hiding in a room are going to be in a world of hurt, even before the first soldier enters it.

Hmm, that makes your statement concerning fragging a building, WHICH, I did not specify size of, kind of pointless.

No it doesn't! The manual said "room". I said, "room". Your swordsmen hiding in a room. The military team is going to frag grenade that room and then machine gun anyone they find in that room. What part of "Battle Drill 6a: Enter A Building AND CLEAR A ROOM" are you having trouble with?

How convient your qualification about the size of the room comes after the grenades just got thrown in. That's just the sort of cop-out I'd expect.

I haven't used a pair of night vision goggles in a long time. To make it very clear as to my military experience which you are so knowledgeable about, I server 2 terms in Vietnam and was captain of a small Spec Ops Squad. Our gear wasn't quite as advanced as it is now so I will give you that point on night vision being in play.

So the newer gear works with IR where the equipment you used in Vietnam didn't, right?

These intensifier tubes are available in four different levels of performance:

A) 1st generation, which is what was used in Vietnam in the 60's and early 70's. This is the lowest priced, most readily available NV. ...These NV scopes benefit greatly from infrared illuminators, which are usually built into the scopes. The IR light is invisible to the naked eye, but shows up very well in a NV scope. Without an IR illuminator, most 1st gen scopes are very limited in what they can see.

www.dealtime.com/xPR-American_Technologies_MO_41_1st_Gen~RD-149164035716

In other words, IR illuminators are practically a necessity for using the Vietnam-era 1st Gen. scopes you're claiming you used. If you'd been in the military and used such equipment, you'd know that.

I'd like everyone to re-read your original claim which is based on your supposed Vietnam military experience in Spec Ops:

First off the night vision is nulled because it needs light to work. Infared is not safe enough for your own men in that kind of a situation.

Looks like your Vietnam war stories just came up wrong.

The first one being cover, objects, obstructions, or obstacles that could be anywhere in this room of any size.

Size unspecified, but radically increased once you found out how the real military handles a room clearing at night. The added cover, obstructions, and obstacles have also all appeared after the US Army showed up tossing grenades into your imaginary room and your imaginary expertise.

No matter. There's something you forgot. The room is still dark! How can the swordsmen see if a grenade got thrown in? How can the swordsmen see where an obstacle is to hide behind? Nothing like the real world bumping against the unreal one.

As night vision is not as effective as you regular vision and your peripheral vision is also slightly lessened, any number of things could happen that you may not have time to respond to.

Let's not forget our soldiers have night vision gear and the swordsmen don't. Last time I checked, "regular vision" means you're blind in the dark and the guy wearing NVG isn't. It's pretty hard to have any improved peripheral vision in the dark when you can't see at all in the first place.

Also I was speaking of TRAINED swordsman expecting an assault from a heavily armed special operations squad.

Oooh! They're trained. I wonder if they're trained in seeing in the dark without the aid of equipment. I wonder if they were expecting the military team to throw grenades in first. Judging by your hasty excuses and changes, it doesn't seem you were expecting that in your original scenario. Suddenly the room size has been changed and some obstacles have been added as blast shields. I'm sure other things are going to change as well.

Going back to your frag grenade comment, if the swordsman were intelligent they would use that to there advantage as it would create a crap load of smoke and obscure the soldiers vision.

It ought to be interesting how swordsmen use any vision impairment to their advantage considering their adversaries can see in the dark.

...and they can't.

If you wanted to kill an entire Spec Ops unit in a no light scenario, them wearing night vision, all you'd have to do is through a Flash bang and you could kill them all with a knife.

Oh, now the swordsmen have flash bang grenades, too! I knew you were going to change something else. You're acting like some kid cheating at a role playing game. Your character sheet keeps changing along with the size of the room, what's in it, and so on.

I suppose you've also decided to supply these swordsmen with face protectors and earmuffs because they're in the same dark room with the flash bang grenades they're going to detonate when the military team rushes in.

...if they don't, your swordsmen are going to be deaf and possibly suffer eye injuries as well. But that's what happens in the real world.

Approved eye protection should be worn when employing the M84 to preclude possible damage to the eyes. The grenade when initiated produces an intense 'bang'. The noise levels will be above 170 decibels within 5 feet of initiation. The user must wear approved single hearing protection when employing the grenade in the event of a premature functioning or bounce back when tossed.

www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/xm84.htm

Let's not forget the dB doesn't suddenly "stop" at 5 feet, either. I'd better point that out now before the room size changes again.

Some situations can't be predicted or controlled and are not in your standard manuals. Anyone who has ever been in a combat situation know this.

That's really ironic. Because you've been controlling and changing the "combat situation" every time it suits your fancy. The room changes, what's in the room changes, the swordsmen suddenly have flash bang grenades. The swordsmen somehow are able to use those grenades in the same room without going blind and deaf.

The "combat situation" just keeps changing, because that's what a Virtual Tough Guys does when he's wrong!

If you had any experience in the military they teach you that sometimes things don't go your way and bad things happen.

Oh yeah, like your spec ops military experience, for example.

Your military experience where you don't know how the night vision gear you were "issued" works.

Your military experience where you don't know how a military team uses that night vision gear.

Your military experience where you don't know how a military team clears a room.

Your military experience where you grossly underestimate the full blast diameter of frag grenade in a room.

Your military experience where you change the size of the proposed room to minimize a grenade's effect.

Your military experience where you don't know the dangers of detonating a flash-bang grenade.

Your military experience where two men with swords are using flash bang grenades in the same room without protection and without getting blinded or going deaf.

Your military experience which changes whatever needs to be when you find out you're wrong.

Superior numbers doesn't mean squat, and that has been displayed countless times throughout history.

Superior technology, however, does mean squat. Like using a search engine to double-check some dude's fantasy spec ops expertise, for example. That's been displayed countless times, right here!

I can read a lot of books and articles online too.

...only when those books and articles are helpfully linked up by me. ;D

Experience is what makes someone wise.

...like your experience using Vietnam-era night vision gear, perhaps? Or your spec ops experience which keeps turning out to be wrong/ fake?

You should think about trying to see where someone is coming from or what they are trying to explain, before you try to make an ass out of them and make yourself look intelligent. I apologize if that sounds rude, but I don't believe that I have overstepped the line on this post.

No apologies needed, Demon. I've got a very thick skin. Besides, making an ass out of you is becoming a habit around here. So is showing up your military experience in spec ops.

[DemonEyedGunman]

lol Well I don't have much to say on this post. I'll start with the fact that you don't know how the military works. It's never like it is in books that you read. You are merely speaking of SOP(Standard Operating Procedure). Also concerning your Vietnam-era night vision use, true that some units had advanced tech, but you are sorely mistaken if you think that the gear you are speaking of is standard issue. SPEC OPS is Special Operations. NOT Special Forces. Getting to all of you comments about me changing the scenario, all I have to say is that I never specified ANYTHING in the scenario. Only that there was a dark room, 2 swordsman, and a SPEC OPS unit. How would swordsman see on the dark? Have you ever sat in a really dark room for an extended period of time? Your eyesight adjusts and allows at least a small ability to move around safely and see shapes. Also. modern night vision goggles have a small green light that is visible to the human eye. Also, what is a lot more likely than the unit using night vision is the standard flashlights that are on their firearms. I am really amused with the way that you become really defensive. ;D You have been attempting to turn everything I say around on me by assuming and twisting. When you grow up and act like an adult when you reply to a post, then you can start a legitimate argument. The reason why I stated that you displayed yourself as being the virtual tough guy that you try to make me appear to be is simple, I read what other people have to say. I read your post and payed attention to your argument. Sadly that's all you do is start an argument. You tried to turn my simple, base scenario, used to prove that sometimes the underdog wins, into something highly descriptive. And as I stated it was merely a broad scenario. No details of how it would happen were really used until the Mr. Know-It-All(you) tried to warp what I was trying to say. If I am the VTG, then why is it that you get so much more defensive than I do? At any rate I have had enough of your pointless arguing. You do appear to be exactly what I first took you for, a person who likes to make themselves look intelligent by trying to make an ass out of someone else. Well you have only succeeded in seeming childish and overly defensive. If you would like to post something as a rebuttal to another's post please try to read that post thoroughly and not twist what they are trying to say.

[Observer]

I'll start with the fact that you don't know how the military works. It's never like it is in books that you read. You are merely speaking of SOP(Standard Operating Procedure).

Coming from a guy who's been factually wrong any number of times, that's worth a few chuckles. You are the last person around here to tell anyone how the military does or does not work. Heck, you didn't even know a military team clears a room by throwing grenades in first.

You know it now because I told you.

You also didn't know how night vision gear works or how the military uses it.

You know now, again because I told you.

Given all the things you don't know, don't start lecturing me how the military "works".

"Also concerning your Vietnam-era night vision use, true that some units had advanced tech, but you are sorely mistaken if you think that the gear you are speaking of is standard issue."

I'm sorely mistaken, am I? The gear I'm referring to wasn't standard issue, it was "advanced tech," eh?

Oh really.

Demon, you're full of it.

A National Stock Number is simply an official label applied to an item that is repeatedly bought, stocked, stored, issued, and used throughout the federal supply system.

www.dlis.dla.mil/nsn-story/NSNstory2.htm

In other words, an item with an NSN is "standard issue". Sounds soooo military, doesn't it? "Standard issue" Whoo!

I'd like everyone (you too, Demon) to take a good long look at the following Vietnam-era night scope.
www.good-guns.com/pvs2/pvs2.html

Guess what? It has an NSN number: 5855-00-760-3869

....annnnnnd when we type that NSN into the US mililtary CECOM LRC database over here:

lrc3.monmouth.army.mil/nsn/index.cfm

Bingo!

Heck, It's been a "standard issue" item since 1964.

If you'd been in the military, you'd know what an NSN number is and what "standard issue" actually means.

Once again, you didn't.

You claimed NVG wasn't standard issue at the time, which proves how entirely fictional your military experience is.

all I have to say is that I never specified ANYTHING in the scenario. Only that there was a dark room, 2 swordsman, and a SPEC OPS unit.

OOOoooh. Typing "spec ops" in all caps must mean something. Basically "SPEC OPS" is whatever you make it out to be. Are SPEC OPS teams issued NSN registered equipment or do they get "advanced tech"? Don't answer that. You've lied enough already.

How would swordsman see on the dark? Have you ever sat in a really dark room for an extended period of time? Your eyesight adjusts and allows at least a small ability to move around safely and see shapes.

Demon, I'm going to say this only once. Don't even think of lecturing me on how the human eye adapts to the dark. If you try, I will show you up as a BS artist in ways you can't even begin to imagine.

It will make all the previous times I've exposed you as a fake look like child's play by comparison. Fair warning. Don't go there.

"Tread softly" because you tread on a subject I've turned into a serious hobby.

For starters, like usual, you're wrong. A fully dark adapted human eye can not see if there is no light to be seen, or if the ambient light is insufficient to adequately stimulate the cone cells in the fovea. Even then, dark adaptation is a easily perishable thing. The muzzle flare from a soldier's rifle can destroy it, especially in a dark room at close range.

*sigh* The very reason night vision gear was developed is because the human eye can't see effectively in the dark. Adapting the eye to improve its sensitivity to light at night is now the domain of astronomers and, for entirely different reasons, me.

So we're back to reality. Soldiers with NVG can see well in the dark. Fantasy swordsmen without it, can't.

Fighting in the dark with NVG gives you an advantage. Fighting in the dark without it against people using it, doesn't.

Also. modern night vision goggles have a small green light that is visible to the human eye. Also, what is a lot more likely than the unit using night vision is the standard flashlights that are on their firearms.

Is this based on more of your fabricated military experience or your experience playing Splinter Cell? This is why Col. Trautman *snicker* didn't let you near a night fighting manual back in 'Nam. It's not that you don't know how to read, you just don't retain any of it.

Re-read point #10 of the room clearing drill:

10. After the grenade has detonated, the next soldier enters the building with ir flashlight taped to the barrel of his weapon.

I am really amused with the way that you become really defensive.[q/uote]

I am glad you have a sense of humor. It must be how you cope with having your "military spec ops" experience exposed as a lie.

"You have been attempting to turn everything I say around on me by assuming and twisting."

Not really. I've been showing how wrong it is. I don't have to "twist". All I have to do is link one piece of evidence after another contradicting your military "expertise". The more times you get shown up as a fake, the less credibility you have on anything.

"The reason why I stated that you displayed yourself as being the virtual tough guy that you try to make me appear to be is simple, I read what other people have to say. I read your post and payed attention to your argument."

A Virtual Tough Guy is a person who claims all sorts of military expertise that turns out to be wrong, inaccurate, and generally fantasy land.

...like a "spec ops" veteran who claims night vision gear won't work with ifrared (which it will) because he used a night vision unit in Vietnam.

...like a "spec ops" veteran who doesn't know what "standard issue" actually means.

..like a "spec ops" veteran who doesn't know what an NSN number signifies.

That's a Virtual Tough Guy.

"Sadly that's all you do is start an argument."

What I've been doing is refusing to let you swagger around this forum, maquerading that you're some kind of "spec ops" veteran, serenading everyone with your fictional military expertise based on your fictional combat experiences.

"If I am the VTG, then why is it that you get so much more defensive than I do?"

You're confusing defense with offense, my dear Demon. You're a Virtual Tough Guy because the military experience you keep citing turns out to be completely wrong. You've been 'outed' as a fake several times already.

Offense is me disproving your military knowledge. Defense is you making up one excuse after another. Like this gem:

"You tried to turn my simple, base scenario, used to prove that sometimes the underdog wins, into something highly descriptive. And as I stated it was merely a broad scenario."

A scenario is a way of predicting an outcome based on a given set of parameters. The outcome you predicted is incorrect because you didn't research how one of those parameters (i.e. the military team) would behave. You were wrong, you didn't know what you were talking about on a number of different levels, and I've pointed that out.

" If you would like to post something as a rebuttal to another's post please try to read that post thoroughly and not twist what they are trying to say."

You should take your own advice, Demon. Maybe then I wouldn't have to repost information because you didn't read it the first time.

When you make a claim, a factual claim, and I demonstrate that it's wrong, I'm not "twisting" what you say.

I'm showing what you say is incorrect. From there, I establish you are incorrect because you don't know what you're talking about.

Once I've achieved that (how many times already?), the fun starts.

I can start focusing on the all-important reason why you don't.

I want people here to wonder why a self-described military "spec ops" veteran doesn't know anything about the military equipment he was supposedly issued, or about military procurement/ supply, or about military tactics, etc.

The conclusion drawn at that point is inescapable.

[PasserBy]

Observer I just read your's and Demon's arguments. I just have a few quick things to say to you all knowing losers. My Brother was in Nam and he never got Night Vision gear. He was on one the special operations teams that cleared out the caves the enemy was hiding in. Demon may be full of it on quite a few things but so are you. He never said anything about how a room was cleared. So you saying he didn't know is a lie. He also didn't mention that muzzle flash would instantly screw any adapted low-light vision gained from being in a dark room for a while. So that's his mess up. He may or may not be a war vet. You are definately one thing though. An immature person who thinks he's better than everyone. Demon may be lieing about things, but he is right when he says military is NOT like the books. Ypu are right as well in many of the things you have stated, but you are wrong in stating some of those things. Like your whole initial argument. Demon didn't state anything at all about how his "scenario" would go from start to finish or exact specs on the room, team, swordsmen, gear on both. He didn't say a damn thing. So your argument that you just won, is all a load of crap. Personally, I believe that IF the situation were right the swordsmen could prevail, but it's not very likely. More likely they'd be smoked out rather than fragged as storming a room is not the first option used. Both of you have been quite childish and stupid in your arguments and I hope that you both grow up. Btw, I think that this forum is dead since Rymel and Trustkill left and your lousy arguments are the only thing happening. I will probably not be responding after this as I am sure that both of you will try to start a shit storm with me. That's my 2 bits.

[Observer]

Well Passerby, since you've been following the discussion and you've been so caustic, you're very much aware what's about to happen next.

It's worth pointing out that you've supplied absolutely no proof whatsoever that your brother was in Vietnam. Like Demon, you can say anything you want. The primary problem with online "credentials" is proving them.

Personally, I wonder how much of your claims are factual because of a number of inaccuracies.

First of all, if your brother was one of those brave souls who went clearing caves and mines excavated by the Vietcong, he was a "tunnel rat" as they were called. It's instructive that you fail to mention that. Important factual omissions like that are how BS and fabrications are detected.

...sort of like Demon not knowing a thing about the night vision gear he said he used.

Second, "tunnel rats" were not special operations teams like you claimed.
www.specialoperations.com/History/Vietnam/Tunnel_Rats.htm

In other words, you don't know what you're talking about.

If you don't know, don't ever correct me again unless you do.

Is that understood?

That might also be why he wasn't issued night vision gear.

A much more practical reason is far more obvious. The equipment of that time was the wrong tool for the job at hand.

NVG at the time was very large, very clunky and that monstrous PVS2 scope I linked to earlier was one of the smaller, that's right, smaller functional sizes available.

American tunnel rats had to clear excavations that were very hot, humid (sometimes wet), and cramped even by Vietamese standards. They had to move quickly, react instantly, and do it all through some incredibly bad circumstances. Even today's equipment would be sorely pressed in such conditions, much less the early versions available at the time.

That might also be another reason why your brother wasn't issued night vision gear.

He never said anything about how a room was cleared. So you saying he didn't know is a lie. Demon didn't state anything at all about how his "scenario" would go from start to finish or exact specs on the room, team, swordsmen, gear on both. He didn't say a damn thing.

On the contrary. The scenario he provided demonstrates he didn't know how the military conducts a room clearing drill at night. If he did know, he wouldn't have set it up in that fashion.

He was very specific:

Think about if you sent a small group of Spec Ops into a really dark room armed to the team with fully automatic weapons and night vision goggles against 2 highly trained swordsman.

In fact, he was also very specific about a lot of things:

The swordsman would have HUGE advantages.

The swordsman would massacre the soldiers and noone would even hear them die.

All the backpedalling and changes to the scenario came after I started injecting a little bit of the real world into his armchair-warrior fantasies.

Notice also how the very specific scenario he provided suddenly became in essence, "just a general example" designed to prove something or other. So it's pretty obvious he didn't know the way the real world works by the very fact he failed to take the real world into account.

He changed and kept changing his original scenario when the information I kept providing disproved the first one. Suddenly the swordsmen have stun grenades, suddenly the room is so large conventional framentation grenades wouldn't be effective, and so on.

"he is right when he says military is NOT like the books."

One thing's for certain, Passerby, the military is NOT like his fantasies or your errors. Training is how the best get that way. The scenarios "in the books" is like all education: it's a start. Their ability to improvise on that does not automatically mean the basics themselves are invalid. Demon was implying as much because "the books" pretty much proved him wrong on a number of points.

More likely they'd be smoked out rather than fragged as storming a room is not the first option used.

That depends on a lot of things, none of which were present in his original scenario.

Most likely Demon would counter and claim the swordsmen could be wearing gas masks they didn't have before you mentioned them getting smoked out. After all, he didn't mention them not having them. That's the same argument you've been using to defend his original scenario.

See how easy that was?

"You are definately one thing though. An immature person who thinks he's better than everyone."

That's a common accusation from people who get intellectually threatened. It's also wrong.

What I am, my dear Passerby, is a person with a very low tolerance for Virtual Tough Guys wasting people's time with their ego-stroking nonsense.

I have an equally low tolerance for being lectured by people who don't know what they're talking about ,except for something they kinda sorta remember their brother telling them.

I am, however, able to research a given topic online and factually support the position I take. You and Demon should try it. It might keep both of you from looking stupid next time.

I will probably not be responding after this as I am sure that both of you will try to start a shit storm with me.

You mean after you've gone out of your way to start a "shit storm" yourself. You made a special point of antagonizing me, based your argument on a number of factual errors, and you've been defending someone who put the wool over your eyes with his invented military experience.

That's the only funny part of all this. It looks like he scammed you and you bought his drivel pretty much outright.

You're living proof of an age old dilemma.

Who's more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?

[MisterAnderson]

Heres a pictorial representation of Observers actions so far. The guys on the hill represent everyone elses arguements.

[PasserBy]

I knew this would happen. I say that your both right about some things and wrong on others and you start trying to pick me apart. lol pathetic and a waste of time. As you state, there isn't really much one can do to prove anything they say about real life, while online. Which is why I am going to attempt something with DemonGunman. My bro served in Nam 2 terms. Demon says he did as well right? Well, I PM'ed him asking for his rank, unit, CO, etc. We will see if I get a response or not. Personally, I think your probably right that he's full of it. You are, however, wrong about me. Don't start an argument with you if I don't know what I'm talking about? pfft. That's a rather arrogant thing to say. Coming from someone who only looks at what another person says then researches it to prove them wrong. You are in your own words exactly what Demon said. Someone who like to make himself look intelligent. www.google.com = your IQ. You quote of Demon's scenario is enough to prove my point. LOOK AT IT HARD. You see any specifics? Dark room, Spec ops team, 2 swordsman. No specification on entry choice or anything else. You are blind if you see that as a specific scenario. Spec Ops team's main weapons would be automatic SMG or assault rifles(with Flashlights) correct? Swordsman's main weapons are swords. In a fair fight Spec Ops would blow them away in a second. However, this is not supposed to be a fair fight. At least that is what it looks like when I see his situation. Spec Ops kicks in door and frags, shrapnel hits a lot of random items in this unspecific room and possibly 1 or both of the swordsman as we don't know the room parameters. Lets say the frag hit's em both, game over. Now let's say it didn't. Spec Ops enters room NVG on. As they move by some object swordsman grabs flash-bang from vest set's it off and 2nd swordsman kills em all. or... Spec Ops enters room no NVG, instead using the mounted Flashlights. Flashlights throwing off any low-light vision swordsman may have received, he jumps out and gets gunned down as 2nd swordsman cuts down Spec Ops immediately after. or....

That could go on forever with endless scenarios with Spec Ops team both winning some and losing some. You whole deal on, "Swordsman not having a chance" is BS man. Spec Ops in a straight up fight would win every time. In an unknown situation and surroundings, it's any body's guess. In Los Angeles, CA a loan maniac with a sword managed to kill 4 police officers with guns drawn. How? I have no clue. Things happen that you can't control. I would like to quote Murphy's Law in that, "If things can go wrong, they will." You all knowing(google using) persona you have going is all based on what you read. Believe everything you read? What about supermarket papers that say Elvis is back? or End of the world? Or the Virgin Mary was seen in a Blueberry Muffin? You believe all that crap too? The things you say are factual based, BUT, they are based on the norm. Almost no situation goes according to the norm be it military or other. Might want to think about that next time you try to insult someone who gave you more credit than you previous "opponent". I didn't come here to argue with you Observer. I just pointed out a few things that you did that were pointless. So what if Demon is in fact a liar? You lie too. So do I. So does everyone. You are no better than him or anyone else and neither am I. I could say something uncalled for such as, "I bet I could beat your ass". That's just talk. However, you don't know if I could or couldn't and neither do I. We can't know unless the situation actually happens. I suggest you look on this so called BS scenario of swordsman against Spec Ops in that same light. That's all I have to say.

[ebime]

*sigh* Pointless arguments, all of them! I am ex-canadian military and no, I don't see what kind of proof I could give about that over the internet (not that I feel obligated to do so ANYWAY!) and I did get to use NVGs. The facts mentionned about the IR light being part of the first 2 generations (yes, the 2nd Gen NVGs had/have those as well...) faisl to mention these could be turned off in case you were facing somebody with the same gear. In that case, you could easily see the red IR beam and follow it to it's source. Back then, these IR beams were a bit like the lasers put on guns when viewed true NVGs. Yes, they also narrow your field of vision quite a bit. And it's also true that, even if something is supposed to be standard gear, it doesnt not mean everyone has it. Those books are written, more often than not, by armchair generals who never saw field conditions and have to do something to warrant their position and/or sell something or other to the system. Most FMs have a total lack of real wrold experience behind them and thus, are nice theories which don't hold the road when put to the test, BUT, nonetheless become the way to do it since the idiot who wrote it has a high rank and also friends in high places, and that these people absolutly hate to be proven wrong.


With this said, can we knock this shit off and get back to the subject of creating gun katas? If somebody (anybody for that matter) does not think it possible, feasible or has any other type of negative attitude towards the idea we are trying to work on, get your toys and find another sandbox to play in! There are plenty of forusm in here to do just that! Thanks.

[mcgee]

Does any one actually have any tutorials on GK ?

[Observer]

Here's a quick gun kata scenario, Ebime. Tell me what you think.

You get to choose which side of a conflict you'll fight on. The conflict is going to happen in a pitch black room.

Side 1.
You join a squad of highly trained soldiers who are going to clear that room. You and your buddies are going to be issued with the latest military equipment, including NVG, IR illuminators, fully automatic weapons, and frag grenades.

Side 2.
You join one other guy to take out those soldiers when they storm in. You've got zip except a really nice katana. No NVG, no guns, no grenades. Just you and exactly one other guy waiting in a dark room where you can barely see each other or anything else.

Pick your gear and your teamate(s).

I'm interested to see if this discussion has changed your opinion. In the meantime, I've got a couple other things I'd like to say to Passerby, though.

Don't start an argument with you if I don't know what I'm talking about? pfft. That's a rather arrogant thing to say. Coming from someone who only looks at what another person says then researches it to prove them wrong.

If you think about it, that's some very good advice from someone "who only looks at what another person says then researches it to prove them wrong."

It means you'd better know what you're talking about or you're going to look very foolish when I show you up as wrong again and again and again.

Both Demon and you apparently fail to make a key distinction. Google is an efficient tool in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, it's not a substitute for intelligence itself.

After all, if Google was an automatic IQ booster, people like you and Demon would do a lot better in a debate.

Strange that you do not, eh? It isn't just Google then, now is it?

I've looked at Demon's scenario enough. Just to humor you, I'll do so again.

First off, what's a "spec ops" team? Are they Navy spec ops? Marine spec ops? Army spec ops? Are they trained the same way? Issued the same equipment? Does it matter?

It should. First off, I disagree with the cavalier way you treat the effects of a frag grenade.

It would have to be a very, very big room with your swordsmen very far away from the entrance in order for a grenade to have such little effect. I get the sneaking suspicion you wouldn't want to be one of those two hapless swordsmen when the fragmentation grenades come through the door, no?

Now let's say it didn't. Spec Ops enters room NVG on. As they move by some object swordsman grabs flash-bang from vest set's it off and 2nd swordsman kills em all.

Let's stop right there. If you'd bother to re-read the specs for a "flash bang" grenade (again, something I linked), you'd notice such grenades make an ear-splitting noise as well as a blast. Unless those swordsmen are wearing hearing protectors and face shields, they're going to be at as much risk (if not more) from a FB grenade as anyone else.

But where did the FB grenades come from? They got added in only when Demon started changing his scenario after he found out from me how NVG really works. The swordsmen acquired their flash bang grenades only after Demon needed a way to neutralize the obvious advantage NVG would give the opposition.

Will the swordsmen also suddenly acquire hearing protectors and face shields in the same magical manner after we all review out how much physical damage FBs can do?

What else will these swordsmen suddenly acquire after the fact?

I'm surprised nobody's suggested the swordsmen are also wearing Class IIIa body armor and are carrying bullet-proof entry shields as well. Every time the scenario goes against Demon's swordsmen, they get more equipment.

Why not take that approach to its final and ultimately idiotic conclusion?

You whole deal on, "Swordsman not having a chance" is BS man.

They wouldn't have a chance in the scenario originally provided, Passerby. But that's the wonderful thing, isn't it? Every time I ground the original scenario down to its inevitable conclusion, Demon changed it!

In Los Angeles, CA a loan maniac with a sword managed to kill 4 police officers with guns drawn. How? I have no clue.

A cite would be helpful. Heaven forbid I use a search engine and look it up, eh?

I would like to quote Murphy's Law in that, "If things can go wrong, they will."

That also applies to those fictional swordsmen. Maybe Murphy will find two guys who can't see a thing, waving big sharp swords a rich target for a mishap. Imagine if they bump into each other.

You all knowing(google using) persona you have going is all based on what you read. Believe everything you read?

Annnnnnd, we're back to gratuitous personal attacks. One of the things that rankles you and Demon no end is I don't believe everything I read. Even worse, when I don't believe what I read, I go look it up!

I'm not all-knowing. However, I've got a pretty good eye for BS, I don't like people who try it on me, and I'm reasonably good at using search engines to expose BS for what it is.

The things you say are factual based, BUT, they are based on the norm. Almost no situation goes according to the norm be it military or other.

...and you're back to the same argument Demon used. It goes, "because life and Murphy's Law provide variations in the norm, the norm doesn't in any way apply when it contradicts my rubbish."

Both of you are so quick to heap constant scorn on someone who does his homework. You get proven wrong, so you immediately revert to an ad hominem attack. It's not your fault that you're wrong and you've been shown up.

No.

The fault lies with the person who corrected you. There must be something wrong with him. He's "all knowing", he likes to be smarter than everyone. One pointless accusation after another. You and Demon keep lashing out at me for one basic reason:

I have a nasty habit of supporting what I say with a link and those links keep contradicting you two.

That's what I find so grating about people like him and, by extension, you. I know that if the situation were reversed and you both had material supporting your position, you'd both be chirping away like some shrill magpies, daring anyone to contradict "the facts".

...which is precisely why I research my position in an argument before rushing blindly in. That way I avoid making an ass of myself the way you and Demon keep doing.

So what if Demon is in fact a liar? You lie too. So do I. So does everyone.

In the context of this discussion I haven't lied about who I am and Demon almost certainly has. That's a distinction worth noting. You and Demon both play amateur psychiatrist, analyzing my alleged superiority complex. Granted, you're both wrong but what else is new?

Maybe you should point that ever-speculative eye at Demon for a change, yes?

If I supposedly think I'm smarter than you, what of Demon? Surely he must think he's smarter than you.

A person doesn't fabricate their credentials unless they believe people (like you and me and everyone else around here) are too stupid to tell the difference. It's astounding how readily you've accepted that insult to your intelligence while frothing at the mouth at any supposedly from me. That's a double standard on your part. I'll leave it to everyone here to speculate on the real causes for that.

-----

@ Mr. Anderson:

Thanks for keeping score

-----
@ mcgee
I suppose the fight coordinator and D. Wimmer must have some printed materials for the movie gun kata.

For the real gun kata? You'll have to ask the experts on that one.

[ViolentMessiah]

all squabbling aside, i do find it hard to believe that anyone would disagree with observer's opinion that swordsman against spec ops guys trained with guns equals dead swordsman.

you can dislike observer's attitude or even his style of debate but how can anyone in this day and age seriously believe that those swordsman could prevail?

sounds like ninja fantasies.

[MisterAnderson]

You don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

'nuff said.

[PasserBy]

I have a quick thing and I am gone. First, Observer, how did you prove me to be wrong about my "opinion"? Or perhaps there is something that I have said to be a certain fact that you have proved otherwise? If so just quote it for me plz. As for Demon I don't really give a rat's ass about him and his credentials. No matter what either of us believe it's only speculation until it can be prooven 1 way or the other. To try and answer a few questions or comments from other I will start with McGee, DemonEyedGunman had a working base kata/form and it was really tested stuff.(air-soft and paint ball) I think I might still have the copies he sent to me when he first came around. Mr. Anderson, don't bring a knife to a gun fight? What about all the many instances where someone pulls a gun out and gets stabbed by a man with a knife? Look it up on Observer's Google. I am sure you can find multiple such scenarios. Lastly to Observer, I love how you give yourself a pat on the back every time you respond. That is a sign of a "superiority complex". The majority of intelligence required to use google is merely knowing how to spell. So I wouldn't pat myself on the back too much If I were you. Have fun all and I SERIOUSLY suggest you take ebime's advice now, before it's too late. If you guys want to argue and squabbles there are debate forums on the Internet. Come here to discuss Gun Kata and try to help each other out and get along. Those things not happening is why the original crew never got to see anything come of their desire. Laters

[MisterAnderson]

PasserBy said:

Mr. Anderson, don't bring a knife to a gun fight? What about all the many instances where someone pulls a gun out and gets stabbed by a man with a knife? Look it up on Observer's Google. I am sure you can find multiple such scenarios.

OK.

Next time you are out playing skirmish or some shit like that, use only a knife while everyone else uses ranged weaponry.

See how far that gets you.

[Observer]

First, Observer, how did you prove me to be wrong about my "opinion"? Or perhaps there is something that I have said to be a certain fact that you have proved otherwise? If so just quote it for me plz.

Well, for starters you alleged as a supposed "fact" that your brother was part of:

...the special operations teams that cleared out the caves the enemy was hiding in.

I've already linked material indicating that the "tunnel rats" who cleared out those excavations in Vietnam weren't "special operations".

That's the first of several corrections, but since you asked for a specific "fact", I'd start with the first one I corrected you about. You're more than welcome to any "opinion" you like. When you're unable to support it or the material you support it with is wrong, then it doesn't count for much, though.

...and what's all this about "Observer's" Google?

That's odd. Did someone transfer ownership of the world's largest search engine to me? Google is available to everyone, bub.

The difference is only some of us bother to use it.

As for your claim:

The majority of intelligence required to use google is merely knowing how to spell.

Is that what you think? Oh heavens... If using Google is so easy, why is it you and Demon never bother using it? You really should, you know. It would help.

I'm going to expand on Mr. Anderson's assertion "you don't bring a knife to a gunfight".

As I pointed out to Demon on the "Case Against Gun Kata" thread, "A gun fight is what happens when the shooting already starts."

Try closing the distance with an opponent who already has his firearm drawn, aimed, and is shooting at you.

To me, a "gun fight" means the party's started (so to speak), the weapons are out, and being used.

...in the same sense the phrase "knife fight" means two people fighting each other with knives. As Mr. Anderson pointed out, person with a knife has some serious reach problems fighting against a person who is shooting at them.

You'll notice neither of us needed Google to correct you, either.

Lastly to Observer, I love how you give yourself a pat on the back every time you respond. That is a sign of a "superiority complex".

Oh, we're back to me again, are we? Please have a grown-up explain the term "satire" and "sarcasm" to you.

What I love is the way you fall back on personal attacks every time you run out any other support for your much vaunted "opinions". It's all about me. It's not about the way you keep turning out to be wrong.

Nope. You've adopted the same approach Demon did. Come up with a lie and stick with it. Yours is a constant accusation of "superiority complex".

There's a very revealing side to that accusation, though. It most often comes from people who have an inferiority complex.

...people who are outclassed, who know it, and who feel threatened by someone.

I'll be the first one to admit I'm not especially nice to people who make a point of criticizing me, especially when they're wrong. When I detect some real malice behind that criticism, I respond accordingly.

Why shouldn't I laugh at you when you don't have your facts straight? That's not a "superiority complex". You're going to have to learn to accept same kind of hectoring abuse you like to dish out.

If you guys want to argue and squabbles there are debate forums on the Internet. Come here to discuss Gun Kata and try to help each other out and get along.

Oh, how noble. That's just the kind of remark that underscores my previous point. You've gone out of your way to antagonize and criticize me and when I reply, now it's arguing and squabbling.

...and what have you been doing, Passerby?

You're arguing and squabbling with Mr. Anderson, aren't you? You certainly disagreed with something he said and took him to task for it.

Why didn't you follow your own sanctimonious advice?

If you disagreed with Mr. A, why didn't you stuff a sock in it? Why didn't you "get along"?

But you didn't, did you?

You felt Mr. A was wrong, so you decided to correct him. He disagreed and replied.

I did the same with Demon and he replied.

But according to you, that's "arguing" and "squabbling". When you do the same thing, you see it as "discussing Gun Kata" "helping each other out", and "getting along".

From what I've seen reading the threads, that sort of attitude is a very good example why many people have stopped contributing to the "Gun Kata" project.

[ebime]

So, are you kids done now? Can we try to work things out or is this place really that hopeless? I see great comments from everybody, why can't this keyboard time be used to take the gun kata concept along instead of petty bickering?

If anyone is interested in the gun kata project, let me know! I AM ready to work, is anybody else?

[preston1580]

Since I am new on this forum, I don't know any of you personally. whatever your individuals, i have to agree with DemonEyedGunman. His scenario, while something we wouldn't every day, is actually quite accurate. Two experienced swordsmen could defeat a group of armed soldiers under the right conditions.
And, observer, if you are going to make an effective argument, it might help to know both sides of the equation before you comment. All you did was give the advantages of the soldiers, while shifting the focus away from the swordsmen and their skill or lack thereof. there are two sides to every fight. If the swordsmen could fight using their other four senses, as some practitioners of the asian martial can, then flashbangs could prove less effective. You do have a superiority complex, thinking that enough technology makes you invincible, a fact that resistance groups and freedom fighters around the world have disproved time and again.
Also, it seems that everybody is talking about gunkata like it's set in stone, that the cleric simply does the forms exactly the way he is taught. This is ridiculous. Learning any martial art requires knowing what moves work at the proper time and how to instantly alter those moves to fit the situation.
Wel, enough preaching from me. Ebime, i am very interested in creating a gunkata and will offer what help i can. I'm no master, but I have studied the martial arts for many years and am always looking for ways to improve the combat knowledge that is already out there.
Incidently, if there are videos of the gunkata mentioned earlier, I would very much like to see them.

[MisterAnderson]

*holds fingers to temples*

I sense a reply from Observer on the horizon....

[frivolity]

*snickers*

[Observer]

Wow! I'm beginning to think Mr. Anderson really is Neo. You've got special powers an' everything! ;D

If any further post by me counts as a reply, then you're right. This is a reply, because I'm replying to you.

But I'm not replying to him. Nope.

Since this is The Matrix, you are. Your reply is my reply even though I am not replying.

Well, okay, you and Violent Messiah both are.

The two of you said it as well as I have and far more succinctly.

misteranderson said:

OK.

Next time you are out playing skirmish or some shit like that, use only a knife while everyone else uses ranged weaponry.

See how far that gets you.

violentmessiah said:

all squabbling aside, i do find it hard to believe that anyone would disagree with observer's opinion that swordsman against spec ops guys trained with guns equals dead swordsman.

you can dislike observer's attitude or even his style of debate but how can anyone in this day and age seriously believe that those swordsman could prevail?

sounds like ninja fantasies.

[Witcher Wolf]

Q: In which anime inspired fantasy does a whole team of spec ops guys get wiped out by, the Yin and Yang of swordplay?

A: Virtually every one.

It looks good on paper, you know, the whole 'I can kill you with my steel-o-death' before you can pull the trigger, but to the people that think Mr and Mrs Blade-4-Hiya are going to wipe out a spec ops squad trained to the degree of say, the Green Berets, Army Rangers or the SAS...you forget one thing...

You might have all the sword training in the world, all the grace and finesse of the finest martial arts champion or action star. But you haven't been shot, nor have I. Anyone that has been shot, like a good pal of mine who was in Iraq will tell you one thing: IT hurts like a fucker, infact in hurts so much that you have to have something akin to Iron-Body Kung-Fu techniques to withstand that kind of pain.

Swords don't deflect bullets and most guns are semi-auto or full-auto. Spec ops teams are trained to fire sustained or three round bursts, even I would be hard pressed to beat just one armed with a sword and I know how to use one.

Stick yourself with a knitting needle (Note: I DO NOT ADVISE THIS) if you like, and if you claim to me you can ignore that pain. I want to see documented evidence...video reels and at least three sworn statements by three different Doctors...

Now imagine being riddled with something that hurts far more, shock, impact...blood loss, you'd hardly be able to remain concious let alone go all Bushido Blade on anyone. So please, don't try and argue with the real world on the subject...defying the laws of reality in movies/books/TV is all well and good. I have great respect for the Shaolin and their Iron Body techniques especially in their live appearances - but any Shaolin Monk, Master or not will tell you as they often do - these techniques require a certain amount of prep-time and in a gun-fight you have this much time.

*BANG*

You're dead.

[skippythegator]

Let me throw a few bombs into the mix ;D

Anyone interested in the esoteric aspect of Asian martial arts should google "haring bakal" and see the results that turn up. Here's one link - a news article from a local mystic who's well known in my country. www.inq7.net/lif/2004/apr/13/lif_22-1.htm By the way, in that story, the writer mentions a "bolo" which is what we call a machete.

Literal translation is "steel king" or "iron king" - something like that. Members of this quasi-religious group are reputed to be able to use amulets and charms to make their bodies bulletproof and blade-proof.

I'm not sure if the people in this next story are the same ones in the Haring Bakal group, but when I was much younger, my dad worked in a city far south of Manila. Some people he met through business learned about his kung-fu experience, and introduced him to a man who invited him to observe their group. Dad was told that members could cup the muzzle of an M-16 with the palm of their hand, fire the rifle at full auto, and hand you the hot slugs. Dad was even told that if he wished, he could join them up in the mountains for three days and after that, he'd be able to do it too. For perfectly understandable reasons, Dad declined .

Years later we recounted the story to a guest who was from that region, and he told us that such amulets really are reputed to work - but they usually require certain unpleasant rituals to maintain their power. Our guest, being a good Muslim, did not believe that good people should perform such rituals. I mention this story to lend some credence to whatever your googling may turn up

There are also stories - almost folklore - about people who subjected themselves to this treatment, usually men of questionable morality, who found out that a bulletproof skin would not protect them from massive bruising and death from internal injuries.

So, factual or not, this little tidbit should make the present discussion a wee bit more interesting

[Witcher Wolf]

I'd put on a flame proof suit after that bat-skippy I trust our regular members...but...

Interesting story

[skippythegator]

*grin* I'm just repeating what I've heard, I haven't seen those things for myself.

Also, having grown up watching the ninja movies of the '80s and beign a fan of the genre, I thought our hypothetical swordsmen would appreciate a little "help" ;D