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Post by pyro on Nov 15, 2004 0:14:11 GMT -5
while i agree that developing a gun kata is a worthy endeavor, the one drawback would be that trying it in the real world would be suicidal. i thought the same about gun katta until Megalomaniac started explaining through awesome examples that gun katta could be used in air soft games. havent played air soft [paintball 4 life] but it would be pretty intesting, no very cool, to have games based on gun katta.
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Post by ViolentMessiah on Nov 15, 2004 9:59:37 GMT -5
i thought the same about gun katta until Megalomaniac started explaining through awesome examples that gun katta could be used in air soft games. havent played air soft [paintball 4 life] but it would be pretty intesting, no very cool, to have games based on gun katta. now, thats a pretty good i dea. i hadnt thought of it from that angle.
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Post by ClericOliver on Nov 30, 2004 11:59:02 GMT -5
Yes, That is definately the best way to do it! I am impressed, you lot have obviously taken the development of working kata to heart.
Something about my knowlegde of Kata
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Post by ClericOliver on Nov 30, 2004 12:02:34 GMT -5
[Read...]now, thats a pretty good i dea. i hadnt thought of it from that angle.[/quote]
I have tryed to use my Gun Kata this month for snowballing and it is quite fun...
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Post by ClericOliver on Nov 30, 2004 12:03:17 GMT -5
Sorry, Ignore the code I bodged in the previous reply!
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Post by LordLizardMan on Dec 1, 2004 1:46:17 GMT -5
one thing I have noticed is most of this thread is focused on the marital arts, You would also have to focus on the gun, the M93R is a terrible gun to use for any CQB situation or personal protection. My perfered choise would be a HK USP compact 9mm, I suggest stay with 9mm because more bullets = more dead perps, and the M93R's nice advantage was it had 21 rounds or 7 3 round burst shots with it.
Again, you must remember this is only a movie, and personally I think the pistol the MOVIE should of used should of been a .22 caliber ... I never bothered to count the bullets in any of the scenes, but the opening fight scene was completely impossible. The cleric shoots in the same direction multiple times, this may be nessicarry becuase they use weaker bullets etc. etc. hense a specail mercury filled hollowpoint would probably be best with any caliber .
I would recommend a semi automatic pistol, HK USP, Walther P99 ... these two are good choices the P99 is 15 +1 and the reason semi automatic pistols are better is because you are not aiming, in many cases you aren't even looking at your target. you just want to point it in the best possible direction and hope you hit something, So considering that your group is going to be 2-3 feet (or ridioculously terrible) for a well trained individual and a 9mm wont take a person down as a given (even with super bullets). again even if the target is 7 feet away not looking at the target .. let say holding the gun upside down pointed directly behind you. You stand a good chance of miss that target. the recoil of any gun is something you must consider, perhaps you should move to .40 caliber and lower the time spent in each direction. or going back to the movie perhaps going with a full auto verson of the Glock (3 round burst) would be a better alternative to the M93R .. the grouping would naturally be better with impoved stopping power, but if you are going to go 3 round burst why not move to .45 caliber. Your best conditions would allow you to take on no more than 10 men realistically, your not going to stand center of attention while reloading no matter how many cool gadgets you have to help you. The kata's must focus on moving towards practical cover IE your already shot targets, to use them as cover.
Another very important thing to consider is your arm movement, much more than your foot movement because you DON'T want to shoot yourself, the guns should never be pointed at you, even if it is just for a split second. I remember being somewhat impressed by not being able to noticably see if Preston ever pointed the barrel at himself.
Also, I think this project should really focus on looking cool instead of practicality, the practical use of this is null IMHO. I am sure that most shooters agree that nothing replaces good aim. Working and practicing to get direct kill shots is much more effective than what Preston was doing, one shot, one kill thats it. To be practical you have to reach the level of 10 guys in less than 2 seconds. I am confident that if I was in the first fight scene as a rebel Preston would of been dead and most of my friends survived,
not to mention if this was even thought to be effective our Seal, Delta, and SWAT teams would do this stuff, instead they realize 1 man armies are easily put down. They practice tactics like cutting the pie, covering eachother's corners etc. An operator team would of cleared those rebels out in less than 2 seconds probably 1.5 seconds or so. using a 4-6 man team. They would of also used a few flashbangs etc. doing what preston did was just all bad. Probably would of been shot on the way in, I am also surpised no rebles shot themselves.
More practical personal protection 1 vs 1 or 1 vs many tactics would have to include some form of misdirection to get more than the 3rd shot off.
Another thing, the clerics wore body armor (at least I am pretty sure) and you should definatly wear body armor grade III maybe go up or down depending on different situations. Your kata and training should account for this too.
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Post by LordLizardMan on Dec 1, 2004 2:13:37 GMT -5
Also, if you look at the movie Preston is able to keep a perfect form while shooting, his guns have no recoil... NOT REALISTIC AT ALL!!
If a person has a gun on you, your best bet is listen to them, and then misdirection,if they allow you to come close to them, they aren't well trained and you MAY be able to take the risk of attacking it. however the closer you are the easier you are to hit, it doesn't take much to pull many triggers, If you choose to take on a criminal who has a gun, expect to be shot. just the simple act of you jaring the gun in any given direction could set the thing off very quickly.
if presented with this situation I recommend, knowing well before hand that you are going to be in this situation before hand. This requires you to be alert to your surroundings, someone shouldn't be able to be around you without YOU knowing where they are. By doing this if you have a carry permit you can misdirect, pull your gun fire instantly and I think that would probably give you your best shot. If you are unarmed (this includes a knife) hands up, move slowly, don't resist and carefully try to guide yourself out of the gun's aim.
Like I said guys, go for looks and safety, you guys have to know your weapon before you can fight with it. Paintball and airsoft aren't valid means to test your theorys because they don't have proper recoil, and that is a HUGE factor in safety and effectiveness. I mean come on guys how many of you have ever fired a pistol before? how many of you can even legally own a pistol? That being said focus on fun and safety, the safety is what brings legitmacy to your project..
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Post by ViolentMessiah on Dec 1, 2004 19:30:44 GMT -5
If a person has a gun on you, your best bet is listen to them, and then misdirection,if they allow you to come close to them, they aren't well trained and you MAY be able to take the risk of attacking it. however the closer you are the easier you are to hit, it doesn't take much to pull many triggers, If you choose to take on a criminal who has a gun, expect to be shot. just the simple act of you jaring the gun in any given direction could set the thing off very quickly. if presented with this situation I recommend, knowing well before hand that you are going to be in this situation before hand. This requires you to be alert to your surroundings, someone shouldn't be able to be around you without YOU knowing where they are. By doing this if you have a carry permit you can misdirect, pull your gun fire instantly and I think that would probably give you your best shot. If you are unarmed (this includes a knife) hands up, move slowly, don't resist and carefully try to guide yourself out of the gun's aim. Like I said guys, go for looks and safety, you guys have to know your weapon before you can fight with it. Paintball and airsoft aren't valid means to test your theorys because they don't have proper recoil, and that is a HUGE factor in safety and effectiveness. I mean come on guys how many of you have ever fired a pistol before? how many of you can even legally own a pistol? That being said focus on fun and safety, the safety is what brings legitmacy to your project.. tell us something we dont know. i dont think anyone is seriously considering developing a gun kata as a realistic self defense technique. at least i hope not. however your post is very presumptuous. you think firing a gun is some sort of secret privilidge? almost everyone i know has fired a gun. if you think that wether you can legally own a gun means nobody under the age of consent has one, you're also way off. the scenarios you posted are very narrow in scope. i think that you've been exposed to conventional self defense/fighting tactics. the stuff you posted can be read in any martial arts magazine. the fact is that each situation is different. i have seen many situations on the street where a guy was holding a gun at another over ten feet away and the unarmed guy managed to bridge the gap and kick the other guys ass. the whole idea that if you act calmly and put your hands up you'll be OK is not always true in today's society. the fact is when someone has a gun he rarely takes it out in the open. he usually assaults you from behind and he's rarely alone. those are the facts. there is a martial art that was developed by the BGA's (a nation wide prison gang) that mostly deals with infighting since obviously there is very little room to move around in prison. the most interesting thing about this fighting system is it has some of the best techniques for disarming armed assailants. in prison these guys actually practice disarming cops while being frisked, disarming multiple armed assailants, bridging the distance to disarm someone who is standing at long range. this martial art is called Jailhouse Rock/52. you wont find any dojos teaching it. its street fighting at its dirtiest. dirty tricks are what works out in the street, not preprogrammed responses like the ones you posted above. sorry dude, but you need to get modernized.
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Post by LordLizardMan on Dec 1, 2004 20:49:14 GMT -5
Well, maybe I misunderstood some people's motives on this forum, but some people sound rather serious about this gun kata, to bring some legitimacy that simply isn't available. From many statements made in this thread, and on many other threads its pretty clear that they haven't shot a gun before. All my post was suppose to do is clear up any misconceptions for those individuals who think this is a worthy cause as far as practical means are concerned.
You are presumptuous in assuming that I don't already understand in further detail real self-defense scenarios or that I take conventional martial arts. I think the majority of marital arts taught in my country (the US) is bull, and if you are a black belt in your sect of karate you are better off doing what I said then fighting. This is because most martial arts forms are geared towards winning tournaments, looking cool, and being good exercise. What a quality self-defense program is geared towards is ENDING situations quickly without leaving openings for potentially dangerous attacks that would be looked over by other martial arts with different motives. I know first hand that attackers work in groups and try to gain the element of surprise.
If presented with this situation I recommend, knowing well before hand that you are going to be in this situation.
In short, for those who don't comprehend English all that well, that means being fully aware of your surroundings at all times ... this includes behind you.
Just a simple look behind you, if you carry yourself well might be enough to make a criminal choose someone else, an easier target.
Personally my means for self defense relies heavily on knowing my surroundings, and with that I am prepared in someway to deal with the situation before it occurs. Not to mention I am very acute with my reactions.
As a trained individual (as many criminals are not) if I have a gun on you, I don't care if you are Bruce lee or 3 guys from BGA, you are better off doing as I say then trying to resist, you will end up with 2 slugs in you before you take the 2nd step towards me. This is a unrealistic scenario for me personally with my current lifestyle.
Realistically, if I am forced into a situation where my gun is pulled someone is going to be put down. There will be no hesitation, no begging, and no chance for any BGA tactics to be used. Situation ended, in 0.1 seconds and it is just that simple
The reason I repeated that "general" self-defense advice is because most people are not trained in a manner fitting of personal protection. As an untrained individual, unless you feel for some reason that you will likely be injured/killed (attacker trying to move you to a new location, previously shot someone else) you are better off not resisting.
If you choose to attack someone with a gun, expect to get shot end of story.
I never said that you will be OK, I said you will be better off... this means that you have a better chance of being OK.
So sorry I have to "modernize" my martial arts tactics, tactics that are really used today by trained professionals
Sorry dude, you have to work on your English comprehension tactics... and some general tact wouldn't hurt either
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Post by ViolentMessiah on Dec 1, 2004 22:05:29 GMT -5
LLM, i guess my bluntness pissed you off. i hope you dont take it personal, but whatever...
my main complaint with your posts is that seem to think that trained individuals have some sort of advantage on the street, when its exactly the opposite.
if you want to know what really happens when guns are pulled out than go to places where that happens everyday, every urban center has one. talk to gang members, cops, ex-cons, bouncers, bodyguards.
you'll find out that your 0.1 second rule is not absolute. it fails alot more times than you think.
i dont know what real world experience you have, if any. i'm only going by what i have experienced my self, have personally witnessed or have been told by people i trust.
all the training in the world doesnt amount to a speck of the real thing.
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Post by LordLizardMan on Dec 1, 2004 22:39:12 GMT -5
For my use, the 0.1 rule applies just fine. My training doesn't so much apply to urban settings directly, but I would never had to deal with the BS a police officer, bouncer, or bodyguard would have to. They have to try to diffuse the situation without death; I only have to preserve my life. Different goals. As I clarified in my last post, the goal of training has everything to do with its effectiveness.
As for "all the training in the world doesn't amount to a speck in the real thing" you have GOT to be kidding me, tell that to any operator team.
Police officers have a different set of rules of engagement than I do. Mine is much less restrictive, and my entrance into the situations has me automatically having some control over the situation. I’m not wearing a blue uniform that says shoot me.
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Post by ViolentMessiah on Dec 1, 2004 23:32:09 GMT -5
operator team? i thought we were talking about street tactics. two different worlds. there is a difference training as a team for specific situations and walking the streets trying to defend yourself against carreer criminals with no back up.
you keep mentioning what you can or cant do. well what is it exactly that you do for a living that allows you to have less restricted rules of engagements?
if i had to guess, i'd say bail enforcement.
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Post by pyro on Dec 2, 2004 15:42:53 GMT -5
alright, before both of you get banned for a small misunderstanding, i think you both just need to understand what one is saying.
lizardman is trying to say that if gun katta was actually practiced, strong safty considerations would need to be implied.
Vmessiah is trying to say that most of the previous members already knew this, no need to repeat info already known.
now, if you guys properly introduced yourselves and background, im pretty sure we can come to an understanding.
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Post by ViolentMessiah on Dec 6, 2004 13:37:05 GMT -5
alright, before both of you get banned for a small misunderstanding, i think you both just need to understand what one is saying. lizardman is trying to say that if gun katta was actually practiced, strong safty considerations would need to be implied. Vmessiah is trying to say that most of the previous members already knew this, no need to repeat info already known. now, if you guys properly introduced yourselves and background, im pretty sure we can come to an understanding. yeah, you're right pyro. sometimes i'm just to blunt for my won good. i may have jumped the gun a bit when i responded to what LLM said and how he said it. i've studied martial arts in the past, have been in the military, worked as a bouncer and bodyguard in the past. i have always felt that while training is a good thing there is no substitute for the real thing. it seems LLM disagrees and thats cool. we all have our own opinions. as i said in a previous post, i hope he didnt take it personal, i hold nothing against him. it was just a heated debate.
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Post by yojimbo187187 on Dec 18, 2004 19:01:25 GMT -5
i hope this thread isn't dead yet, i've got some info that might help. i've watched quite a few different types of gun fights (paintball, soft air, bb gun wars, etc) and been in quite a few myself. i've been shooting guns for roughly fifteen years now and i'm a pretty good shot. i've been interested in a gun based martial art for some time, way before the movie came out, so you can imagin how excited i was to see gunkata being used. with all of my research and study i've learned a few things that will help you: the bad news there are millions of intricate details that go into a gunfight that, if left out, will spell the death of the fighter. at first i thought this were true of any fight but i learned different. because guns deliver a consistant amout of force over a long distance regardless of the ability/strength/intelligence of their user, a wild shot is just as leathal as a well placed one. i know what you are thinking, duh! but think of it this way, every attack has the potential to be lethal, intentional or not. that fact alone raises the danger level of a gun fight exponentially! the good news i think it can be done. even with the countless details that need to be taken into consideration, i think it can be done. but the key to a good gunkata, in my opinion, has very little to do with the guns themselves and everything to do with the environment. for instance, a gun kata expert would shoot out lights and fire at sounds while constantly moving, she would use human and nonhuman cover constantly, and she would anticipate running out of ammo by knowing other weapon arts. as musashi would say, a gun is just a tool in the warrior's tool box. if you are doing this for fun or for application, i know i can help out and i would love to. either way i think it would be a lot of fun to develope but at the same time; people, this is going to be a complicated technique!
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Post by Achilles on Feb 20, 2005 8:29:46 GMT -5
I have told some people, the data is out there, there has been hundreds of training exersizes and real encounters that have been recorded. and te data is just waiting to be analized, i got my hands on some of it, very interesting stuff
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Post by Rymel on Feb 27, 2005 23:02:59 GMT -5
weren't you gonna send me some of that...you stopped emailing me dude
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Post by Achilles on Feb 28, 2005 15:18:17 GMT -5
no YOU stopped emailing me.....
been busy, will get what i have off to ya,
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Post by Rymel on Mar 5, 2005 14:51:51 GMT -5
nah dude, i emailed you 2 or 3 more times since the last reply and got nothin back, so i stopped emailing. but whatever, i found you
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Post by danwilkie on Mar 5, 2005 18:45:15 GMT -5
OK, as to the subject of aiming - how about checking out the following link. It refers mainly to rifle shooting, but having become reasonably proficient with a pistol at the airsoft skirmish (unlike the states, real pistols aren't something one can easily lay their hands on) it works with pistols too, though it is neccessary to extend ones army fully to enable you to index the target properly, but its simply a matter of pointing your hand at the target and squeezing the trigger more or less, its accurate enough that you will hit your target, maybe not in an instantly fatal location like in the film, but worst case centre of mass, and you don't need more than a peripheral view of your target to hit it. But don't take my word for it - try it yourself and you'll see. Unfortunately, I am not longer a martial artist (though I am considering taking it back up again), so I couldn't comment on that side of things, but I'm sure that this "lost" method of shooting could work.
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Post by Rymel on Mar 5, 2005 19:00:14 GMT -5
silly as it sounds, i dunno about anyone else but that's how i learned to shoot in video games before actuall aiming at things like heads i feel that's probably the best starting point -- general point & shoot methods. it's only after you grasp that concept can you start to hit critical locations on the fly. i mean, isn't that how it is in sparring? there's also no link btw
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Post by danwilkie on Mar 5, 2005 19:06:18 GMT -5
Just another thought, Hollowpoint ammunitioni would be a big no no, one of the first things they tought us. You never know if a target is going to be wearing body armour or not, so you make sure you use FMJ's all the way. Within 30 feet whereever an FMJ hits they're going down. Fact. They may not die, but there is now way they will be able to respond. HP's are for the police, mostly because they have to worry about background and an FMJ is still lethal after penetration, in most cases HP rounds are not.
Also, no reason to use the USP. True, it is a good weapon, and our standard issue, but for me it would be a glock all the way, its just more reliable. Not only that, but a burst capable pistol, while sacrificing long range accuracy, is a damn site more intimidiating, and to be honest, if there's one of you against 5+ assailants, you NEED to be intimidating, people don't think so clearly when they're caught of guard and speed and surprise are far more useful than you're pistol will be.
In addition, if the weapon is altered by a capable armourer, there's no reason recoil should be particularly effective at destroying your aim. Every single persons sidearm in my section has been fettled by the base armourer and I guarantee you it can capably be shot while moving around as much as you like - never used anything larger than 9mm though, and I admit recoil on larger calibres would be a problem.
9mm Glock 18C for me would be my choice. Next time we're put in the field, I'll see what I can lay my hands on from the AAR's, but IF I can get hold of anything (and I can't make any promises) then it WILL be quite heavily censored. However, I'll do my best.,
Email me with any questions (not "Who do you work for" - as you know already I won't answer that one!)
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Post by Rymel on Mar 5, 2005 19:16:10 GMT -5
as a little aside, i started reading some rpg books as my friends are playing again, and flipping through cyberpunk 2020's chromebook 1 & 2 it had an interesting special ammo - dual purpose. don't know about the feasibility but the concept intrigued me. it's a lead encased round with a pointed slug inside it (i can't remember the material but it was AP). basically if it hits armor, the lead sheath peels away and the AP round continues to penetrate, but if it hit a softie the lead sheath would mushroom and behave like an HP round. think this could be made as a real round?
but back on topic, i remember my group leaving the table agreeing the the USP, beretta and glock 17/18c were all ideal base models for the style. i wanted to call it gundancer, but ironically something similar is in an rpg book. i must be psychic! ;D
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Post by Dave1911 on Mar 5, 2005 19:28:13 GMT -5
What your talking about is a penitrator core, most AP amunition has it, weather or not the bullets are hallow point dosnt make that mutch diference with a IIIa vest its still going to stop handgun rounds
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Post by danwilkie on Mar 5, 2005 19:33:32 GMT -5
Sorry, forgot the link! Its www.pointshooting.com/qkart.htmPoint shooting was never something they taught us, even in level 4 tactics, it was always to aim using the sights. However, after someone at an airsoft skirmish had bought the idea to my attention, upon discussing it with our training officer he is moving to have it adopted as a unit SOP. It sounds cheesey but learning it, and learning it well, has saved my arse on more than one occasion. Like many things however, reading it is not enough by itself, it does take a lot of practice to master it instinctively. Its more than accurate enough out to the effective range of any pistol I've ever used though, if you are trying to hit targets over 100 metres away you really need to look at you're chosen weapon I would suggest practicing with a weapon devoid of recoil such as an airsoft weapon till you get the hang of it, the whole feeling is weird to begin with as it pretty much trashes everything you've been taught when it comes to using firearms. If you wish, I'll see if I can get some footage at airsoft of the QK method if you like? One other thought in terms of weapon selection, as I feel several other people may be thinking along these lines - Machine Pistols such as the MP5K, Micro Uzi and things like that. Having thought about it some more, not a good choice. Partly because of the weight, and partly because (with the exception of the HK) they are badly affected by recoil and horribly inaccurate. And of course you won't be able to obtain them legally unless you're intending using them in military or police service. As an aside, directed at the gentleman who said if it was that effective then SEALS/Delta (pah, not so elite as you think - Brits rule the way ) would use them, I suspect its the same as with us - Brass don't watch films (not action films anyway) and so it wouldn't be noticed. However, its got me thinking and if it was practical, there's no reason why I wouldn't adopt it into my list of tactical options, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be at least partially useful in some form. I admit though, not sure if you're special forces section (or stick or chalk, whatever they call them) leaders are allowed the same flexibility we are.
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Post by Rymel on Mar 5, 2005 20:03:37 GMT -5
but does it do the latter part i said? if it does then damn, wish i knew about those sooner!
dan, having never fired a real weapon (nyc gun laws are tough and licenses are expensive) and from the results of too much recreational gunplay (pball, video games, laser tag, etc), i think i can safely say i point and shoot, not aim. isn't that how anyone untrained does it ayway? i'm surprised to hear they don't teach that first though. i'd like to see that QK footage if you can.
i don't know about the rest of you but as tempting as it is to pick a machine pistol it just doesn't seem feasible for our application due to the immense amounts of recoil generated from constant fire. to me it'd just be nice if it was there, but not a primary concern.
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Post by danwilkie on Mar 5, 2005 20:18:54 GMT -5
Most people who are untrained in how to use a firearm tend to shoot high, they simply misjudge the range to the target. To be honest thats pretty much all the QK method is - training people to react rapidly yet still judge the distance correctly to the target. Its not a black art or anything.
IIRC, the US Army used to teach this method first. We never have, Aimed fire using the sights is the way its always been done, its generally considered that unless personnel have been given a sufficient amount of training and have considerable experience there is to great a chance of friendly fire, as the split second you aim at the target doesn't really give you enough time to ID whether its friend or foe - thats something that you only pick up with experience.
I believe thats why the US Army stopped teaching it also, as I don't want to offend anybody, but they do have a reputation for blue on blue, and I'm not in a position to speculate why that is, but I DO know that there is an increased risk of this with the QK method and indeed its failed our excercises a few times because of it - 1 friendly casualty is an instant failure...
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Post by Rymel on Mar 5, 2005 20:25:01 GMT -5
I believe thats why the US Army stopped teaching it also, as I don't want to offend anybody, but they do have a reputation for blue on blue, and I'm not in a position to speculate why that is, but I DO know that there is an increased risk of this with the QK method and indeed its failed our excercises a few times because of it - 1 friendly casualty is an instant failure... no offense taken. the army here DOES suck, and i don't even know why we have 2 ground force branches when one is clearly better than the other. 4 days of rifle range opposed to 2 weeks? wtf? as to QK's faults regarding friendly fire...that shouldn't be an issue with us unless you intend to go in with a teammate...which is odd in itself. i mean really, do i wanna go in with a guy i know will be firing in a full 360 degree arc? i'd rather him go in first!
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Post by Dave1911 on Mar 5, 2005 22:22:38 GMT -5
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Post by Rymel on Mar 5, 2005 23:02:21 GMT -5
YO. how bout you stop treating me like an imbecile and realize what SITE you're on. we're talking gun kata, so why in all logic would i talk about wild firing? geebus. but anyway thanks for the link.
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