I have the answer to the gun kata! Need some help

[kengou]

Hello. First time posting. I've looked through some of the "gun kata developement" threads and I have to say that you guys are going at it from the wrong direction. (If I'm wrong, this will all still help you, probably)

You went right to gun types, stances, and kata. You should remember that new martial arts start with a concept that seperates them from others, and then builds on this concept with techniques that support it. For gun kata, the main idea is that the positions and movements of the antagonists and enemy bullets can be predicted through analization and statistics/probability. If that turns out to be true, as they say in the movie, we can develop gun kata with a little effort, given our collective backgrounds in the martial arts. However, if it is false, and these elements can NOT be predicted at all, then any gun kata we make would be very sub optimal and might only improve gun fighting effectiveness by 25 - 50 percent rather than 120 (as in the movie). You can tell I'm just guessing at the numbers really, but you get the point.

Now then, we need to do some math and analization FIRST before we develope kata. If anyone here can get some footage of a paintball fight or something like that, and get LOTS of footage, then we can analize it and begin to look for common elements of each fight, as well as calculate the probabilities and stuff.

For instance, maybe on average the person in the center of the enemies attacks first, while the enemies at the side run outward. If that is found to be a very common maneauver in those gun fighting situations, then we can mold a kata around taking out the man in the center while getting out of his most common shooting line and target area, and then work on getting the enemies on the outside. You see how it can get complicated, however it can be done.

Now then, we have the concepts and an idea about how to mold techniques around them. I'll tell you guys some of the things I have worked on, really just basics that would be needed IF we worked on gun kata AFTER analization:

Footwork - will need to be long steps in order to carry the entire upper body away from predicted shots. Solid stances should be used for shooting stability, however the body should constantly be moving around to avoid staying on the same firing line for an enemy to hit. Footwork should also be able to efficiently carry the torso in order to get the arms to the most efficient means of firing.

Firing postures - In the movie I noticed that the arms are almost independant of the legs, in that they seem to move and target enemies around Preston while his legs carry him out of predicted lines of return fire. This can be used for our gun kata, however the legs and arms must effect eachother. Therefore dodges must support efficient arm movements into firing positions. So you wouldn't dodge in a way that prevents you from targeting the enemy that presents the most threat. Also, dodges should be able to get your arms quickly to the firing positions that are necessary. Also, arms must be kept rather close to the body in order to avoid becoming targets themselves or being hit by wild shots. Therefore, the arms thrust straight out while shooting, as found in the movie's kata, has no place here.

Mind training - Clerics from the movie were trained to analize the situation during the gun fight, including the number of antagonists, as well as types of weapons and terrain, in order to choose which gun kata techniques will be useful. This must also be a key part of our gun kata. I believe that, like many kung fu forms, our first few gun kata must teach the basics of movement and postures AS WELL AS the analization of and growth of the mind in the manner best suited for a gun battle.

so this is what it comes down to: If we find that the movie was correct and gun fights can be predicted, our gun kata will be a success and it should be developed pretty easily. If, however, we find that fights cannot be predicted at all, and everything is totally random (this is what I suspect, personally), we can still create a kata but it would not help all that much. It would only probably give you the ability to dodge a few more shots, and hit a few more targets, than you would if you were not trained. Against many antagonists, you would lose if trained in this faulty gun kata, however you might take a lot of them with you ;D With all our martial arts experience, plus many paintball players, I think we really could create a serious form of gun kata that could work in real situations. It would take a long time, be very exhaustive, and take lots of time in front of a monitor watching recorded gun fights, it could be done.

Here is what I propose: I'd like someone to record some gun fights (paintball, or whatever), and put them up somewhere. Then, others can view these gun fights and analize them. After that, if common elements and predictable events are found, we can begin making gun kata AROUND those elements, rather than making elements revolve around kata.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. (please don't flame!)

[TheJackal]

I agree that the basis of the gun katta in the films dpends largely upon whether bullet direction can be predicted or not. As with any form in any martial art, a knowledge of where your opponent is and what he/she is doing is vital. These took many years to make, and hundreds to perfect. I very much doubt that gun katta will be an accepted and totally efficient gun deffence system. On the other hand, the martial artists amongst us (I'm new here but from what I can tell thats most of us!!- me included), may be able to come up with some techniques which can be impimented later. After all, a martial art isn't all forms, and Eskrima (one of the ones I study) is practiced with a lot of one-on-one drills, of specific disarming, attacking, deffending techniques for stick and knife. Also the "mind training" can be done without a knowledge of the katta, just train yourself to assess your environment (no. of people, any cover, escape routes, possible ambush locations etc.). Those of us with a video camera, a bit of time and a maths degree, get calculating...evryone else <bow> get fighting!!

[Stijn van de Ven]

Sounds like a good plan
I adore it
Stijn van de Ven, if you want to talk futher about this to me, my msn adress is [e-mail]

[fusion]

Yes, yes, yes
This is sounding very promising.
I totally agree with ya kengou

[TheJackal]

I know most of you out there on the...ehm...Developement Team are martial artists, but for those of you with less experience or only a solid background in say Karate I'd like to make a few suggestions on which martial arts to base the Katta and any other techniques (hand-hand, gun-as-close-combat-weapon etc). The katta itself reminded me of T'ai Ch'i Chuan, hand-hand techniques in Wing Chun Kung Fu have been the most effective for me as they are so fast and powerfull (the masters can punch 10 times a second!!!). As for anything involving disarming an opponent is conserned, or using weapons like short sticks or the butt of your gun, I would suggest Eskrima. It's like Wing Chun with sticks and knives!! The advantage of all of these is that you don't need alot of flexibility or strength and there are very few, if any, aerial techniques involved (unless you count throwing an opponent) as in the films where I recall one foreward flip and that was about it.

[Kengou]

That's fine, but for now let's forget all that. First is analization and calculation, and THEN we worry about the kata itself. I agree with you, though. Hand movements of wing chun would probably work, since they are so simple and efficient. Also, for the dodging I'd say a mix of dragon-kung-fu and aikido footwork would do the trick. Anyway, enough hypocrosy from me

[TheJackal]

Good call. I suggest we spread the word on the forums, so that we get as many people working on it as we can.

[Rymel]

wow, you guys have basically recapped every good and bad thing we've talked about in the other two threads and off-forum i think you guys should look at the concept a little more before drawing those conclusions, that's all i'm gonna say.

[Yobun]

After reading your theories on the gun kata, I would very much like to be part of this observation and creation of an adapted realistic kata. I am no expert in martial arts I have simple training in karate, mostly defence and boxing which is my much-preferred sport. Although boxing I feel could not apply to a gun kata I feel that in order to work upon formulating a kata aim is a big problem.
Were as in the movie Preston can shoot at all angles without looking, only thinking about his next move. I feel that to be able to hit targets efficiently from such a range, at such a speed, without looking. Is, ill just say near to impossible…
Anyway I am keen on video editing and have taken a course in media production and have all sorts of software that I have already began to use to analyse short videos of my friends paintballing. If anyone would need any videos broken down or cut id be very happy to help out.
Kengou I think your analysis is brilliant and all other theories spoken will work together very well.
If anyone can give me any information about joining or helping out I would be very thankful

[Preston]

WOW. a lot of research was done here.
-Preston

[Kengou]

Yobun, if you could post those paintball videos on the web somewhere that would help a lot. If you can't, just try to describe the movements so that we can determine if there is anything useful.

[shaolinlite]

speaking to the final duel b'tween preston and dupont, I was struck by the use of "sticky hands" tai chi exercises-one wonders how many gunshots you could have going off next to your ears before the eadrdrums collapse, not 2-3 feet away but right next to your ear! I digress...
as to movement and footwork, the chinese broadsword techniques and forms (think michelle yeoh in CTHD) might serve as a basis for a gunkata footwork- this style of swordsmanship depends upon the swordsman's constant movement away from predictable attack points, while placing the business end of the blade right where the opponent would have to be in order to get off an effective strike- by weaving a web of steel around the swordsman's most vulnerable points.
the painball trials are a superb idea; I am off to sportmart as soon as I post this!
hope this will be helpful,
shaolinlite

"dont hit me, I wont hit you...hit me, I hit you first!"

[TheJackal]

Greetings fellow revolutionaries <bow>. On the subject of martial arts to use as a basis, COMBAT magazine a few months ago had a short article about a martial art used by the only odyguard the emperors daughter took with her when the dynisty was collapsing. the reason she only took him (despite his age) was this martial art that kept his energy flowing in all different directions even when stationary. this gave him incredible reactions and the ability to take on roughly 8 people simultaniously!!! weapons or no. so with some stamina you could fight hundreds!!! if i find what the matial art was ill post it, if any of you can remember that will help. if we can somehow post those paintballing vids somewher we can get lots of people working on the calculations, os we can get a much fairer test (all those bloody physics experiments with their how do u make it a fair test...there worth something after all!!). -side note, borne supremicy coming out soon, looks good guys nd gals-. Jackal out <bow>

[Kengou]

Again, we shouldn't talk about the movements and kata themselves untill we have sufficient information. It's good to get this martial stuff out to talk about them, but it really is pointless at this stage of developement. That's sort of the point of this whole idea. So, unfortunately, we really shouldn't do anything other than analize gun fights right now.

[TheJackal]

Sorry Kengou, (btw why dont you become a member, its free you know) but I forget things easily, so I have to get them down quick. Like this for example, as far as gunfights are concerned, can anyone thing of a way of filming a fight in lazerquest (or similar), to get the infa red beams, then we can have loads in one shot and figure out the place where the least of them are, and therefore where it is best for you to be. Should be easyer than following painballs. Just an idea.

[TrustKill]

the thing that makes analyzing gun fights improbable and inapplicable is the way humans react under fire. we can set up infinite amounts of tests with paintball, laser tag, airsoft, etc, and it still wont amount to much considering the differences in ballistics and human reaction when using real weaponry.

[shaolinlite]

I must disagree with TrustKill- any martial artist will tell you that for every movement you make, there is a complimentary set of movements you cannot make as a result. e.g, if my right hand is moving toward your face, it is moving away from my face- cant hit you and cover me with the same hand at the same time, you see? cant execute a double leg take down while throwing a crescent kick! so when in a combat situation, I dont have to consider ALL the (arguably) infinite scenarios, only the ones you are capable of executing at any given moment.
Unless the bullets are moving at less than 100 miles an hour, the differences in ballistics are academic-the bullets gonna getcha no matter how fast you run. as a result, the question of relative ballistics is merely academic. the crux of the gunkata project is not guns, but as you say, the human reaction. this is a very predictable phenomenon, and as such, capable of being analyzed and modified. what do you think the millitary does to recruits in basic training?
TrustKill, if what you posit were true, then no martial art would have been developed. the fact that they were makes me think your pessimism is unwarranted, and you should unburden youself of such doubts. have faith in the resistance, friend!!

[TrustKill]

haha, thats not what im talking about at all...

-you plan on using data from laser tag or paintball or whatever in order to create a framework to make a gunkata system. in order to do this well, you will have to somehow convince the people in the tests that this exercise will be as risky as a real live-fire exercise. having played paintball, laser tag and airsoft of a number of years, i can tell you that in those specific combat situations you react much differently than what i can imagine people react in a situation where real bullets are being fired at you. you take bigger risks, you use more theatrical hollywood movements, and you sometimes sacrifice yourself for your team. the results of doing this in a real firefight would be catastrophic. do you see what i am saying? your computerized results will be from what people BELIEVE they would do when they are being fired upon, thus not the true results from "statistically analyzed gun fights" as you would want them to be. your entire system, if based upon these results would be flawed to the core. that is... unless you want to get people to shoot real guns at guinea pig subjects for your data collection and good luck finding people willing to do that.

EDIT: i wouldnt neccessarily call it pessimism either, just realism. being part of the original three gunkata developers here on this site, we talked hours and hours around the possibility of computer analyzation a la the actual movie. we all came to the conclusion of its improbability.

[Yobun]

and if i could get you footage of actual gun fighs, symulated. Real shots, (sum are mre simulated) and real reactions... would that make a difference

[TheJackal]

that would be great. btw if we put someone undeer pressure in some way to make it so theyre realy trying not to lose, that might help, also as far as sacrificing yourself for your team is conserned, were talking 1 on many. no team involved, not for the "cleric" anyway, so thats not gonna happen. and as far as hollywood moves are concerned, thats almost what were after anyway, jumps and spins and flips, we just want them to be done coherently and with more of a pourpose than simply to look cool!!

[Megalomaniac]

Since we and freinds are starting weekley (more or less) airsoft games, I've thought about developing a practical form of Gun Kata.

The biggest part of Gun Kata seems to be determining what the targets' reaction to your actions will be, this requires massive thought, a bit of eccentricty, and/or just dumb luck.

My idea is to create a series of mental exerises which will build someone's ability to process combat data faster and then determine the proper course of action. The last part of Gun Kata is execution.

We are low on BBs and Gas at the moment so It'll be a week or two until I can elaborate on this with comabt reports.

But I do have some fragmented data from a failed execution at last weeks match.

Situation: Two targets with Automatic weapons holed up in a small shack (two windows and a door). One has greater ROF but lower range/accuracy the other much greater r/acc but lower ROF. They have more ammuntion (atleast 100 and 210, respectively, rounds readily availble). I have 25 rounds.

Terrain:
-Tree: large enough hide three of me behind, shelter from fire, currently at.
-Picnic Stlye Table: when in proper position complete shelter from fire.
-other trees near fence, only provide shelter from one weapon and difficult to move.
-Flat loose grassy, slightly muddy.

Decision:
Theres no time limit so staying put won't aid me, also due to my lack of supplies I can't beseige them for long. I can't adavnce down the middle without getting shot to all hell, nor along the fence or on the farside of the picnic table for the same reason. I Decided that the best plan was to force them into wasting ammo by darting back and forth between the tree and picnic table, I know that my targets won't think to track their shots and will waste atleast 30 and 70 rounds respectivley before they realise my plan.

Execution: FAILED
Ran from behind the tree counting there shots as best I could, once I reached behind cover I immediatley darted out from behind it, but my flaw was that I didn't notice that I'd stepped in a patch of very wet mud when I retreated behind the table, upon trying to dash out the bit of suction spooked me and I froze to look at it which allowed me to get shot three times below the knee.

[TheJackal]

Conclusion: UR AN IDIOT!!!

lol. sos. jst a joke ;D. that would be a great idea (wot u wer gonna do wid the airsoft). giv one man a few senarios to deal with. let him think on them a bit (no plans should b concrete cos no plans gonna work EXACTLY) then c wot he makes of it. sen us some reports if u can, some pics/vids somewhere would be good for those of us actually doing the maths. till then \m/

[Megalomaniac]

TheJackal said:

Conclusion: UR AN IDIOT!!!

lol. sos. jst a joke ;D. that would be a great idea (wot u wer gonna do wid the airsoft). giv one man a few senarios to deal with. let him think on them a bit (no plans should b concrete cos no plans gonna work EXACTLY) then c wot he makes of it. sen us some reports if u can, some pics/vids somewhere would be good for those of us actually doing the maths. till then \m/

Your grammar and spelling hurt my brain. A basic practicable mental excerise might be manouvering through a dense hallway against the flow of traffic (always fun) while encountering minimal restistance.

[Megalomaniac]

Abit confusing language but I hope you understand...
Practicle Gun Kata:

Frame of mind, before starting any PGK excerise clear your mind of all thoughts. Then focus only
on the situation.

How to accomplish an excerise:
-Determine the Objective
-Determine the number/quality of targets
-Determine Possible Terrain (cover and concealment)
-Plot course of action based on the following factors
-Number/ quality of enemies
-Distance, Location, and placement of Terrain
-Physical Ability
-Execute, while executeing make adjustments and note every detail.

Physcial Ability is your limiter, the more flexible and the less surface area you present to your
enemy the better. One factor to consider is the exposure of surface area to a target.

Shoulder First
Idealy you want to be with your legs spread and a shoulder facing down into fire, this should be familar to any one who snowboards or skateboards. There are two stances under this group,

Intendo, which means aimed, grip your gun two handed and and with your predominate hand first. If you were to extend a ray down your gun's muzzle it should run parallel to a similar ray extened through your knees, this is your more accurate postion.



Celer, which means quick, for this postition you grip your gun one handed in your predominate hand, and extend your normal trigger finger across the trigger guard gripping the trigger with your middle finger, aim by simply point where you want to shoot. This positition allows for greater flexibilty while sacraficing accuracy.



Celer Off-Hand, The same as Celer except you hold the weapon in and face in the direct of your non predominant hand.

Starting my own thread for this, please post your thoughts!

[Kengou]

Interesting. I definately agree with your mental excercises, and I like the earlier idea of giving the gun-kata trainee various situations to think about. I must agree that human reactions CAN be predicted, and in an airsoft fight I think it can be close enough to the real thing to at least still yield helpful results, if not perfect. It's as close as we can come without people actually killing eachother.

As a supplement to your mental training, we should decide whether or not it is feasible to include some sort of mental system for increasing your aim, so that you can successfully hit someone while running with the gun in one hand. Once that is accomplished, you can move to hitting targets one after another while changing directions, using one hand, then from there you can move to 2 guns firing at the same target, while moving, then from there we can gradually place targets farther away from eachother, and then in more and more complicated firing positions.

Just a thought.

[Sef]

I don't do much gun-fighting, or martial arts anymore, but I do fence and this gives me an insight into people's reactions when under stress.

I would say that your difficulty is determining how well-trained the other gunman is. This would definately influence their actions and therefore (a la Kata) yours.

A very well-trained person (gun,sword, whatever) knows that using the same set of actions is silly, allowing the other person to counter. Therefore he knows what he should do next and does something entriely different. This would therefore screw up any chances of beign able to judge what he will do.

A trained person knows all teh manouvers but is not normally good enough to work as teh person above. they use manouvers in a predictable fashion, often repeating teh same one. this person would be easy to defeat with kata if perfected.

Finally there is the untrained person (such as most real gunsmen would be unless your facing a hitman, and if so your screwed anyway). They fight randomly, using a mix of natural manouvers and things they have picked up from other sources i.e films. This person would be impossible to face with any form of gunkata as they have absolutely no sequence to their actions.

I have only covered 3 possiblilities and yet only 1 is possible to defeat with Gun Kata. I therefore conclude taht out of teh many more, it is most unlikely that you will face someone who you could defeat.

And finally:

A real gunfight (as someone mentioned earlier) is a matter of life and death. Noramlly there is no real aim behind each shot, its just trying to get off a bullet to kill the other person before they smear your brains over teh wall. No sequence or anything, just random shooting, trying to stay alive. The human instinct to live is much stronger tahn most people's training, therefore the chances you will meet someone who will be calm enough to fight back with sequences is highly unlikely.

Jsut my 2 cents on the matter

[mantiswarrior]

here is my first post, so here goes,

rather than trying to dodge bullets, which lets be honest is silly, why not try to remove the man before the shots get fired, i've done kung fu for a number of years and have learned that generally once you get the gun aimed in your direction...its game over, but i have also learned if you can get close enough, you can take him out before he can fire, i can kick him in the groin before he raises the gun, apply simple locks, punch his throat in, etc. so shouldn't a gun quan (not kata, im from the kung fu side of things heh heh heh) consist of dealing with an opponent before he shoots, its SLIGHTLY more possible and definatley less messy that way, anyway good luck, there is no such thing as bad research, even if the results prove that the statistically best place to be in a gun fight, is in a different country.

as for fighting with a gun, i might try it sometime with a mock up, see how it fares in aiding against unarmed and armed opponents who are too close to shoot

[ViolentMessiah]

Ok i've been reading these posts and i'm assuming that the gun kata is being developed just for fun because, lets be honest, what we saw in the movie was just fantasy.

i think the problem with this whole gun kata thing is that these days, a full fledged shoot out is a rare occurrence. usually someone walks up behind the victim and shoots him in the back of the head with a 22.

shootouts on the street are usually over in a few seconds and bystanders are more likely to get hit than the intended targets.

the main problem i see with implementing an actual gun kata is that we havent reached that far in technology and human development.

we need technology that can analyze hundreds of gunfights, take into account the ricochet factor, the ineptitude of most shooters, and of course Murphy's Law and come up with the numbers that would allow one to accurately develop the necessary moves to make the kata a viable technique.

we also need to reach a point in human development where we as humans can achieve the necessary speed, hand eye coordination, and inner calm of a Grammaton Cleric. i dont think we're there yet.

i'm not knocking anyone for trying to develop a gun kata, i think its fascinating stuff and it has to start somewhere. i just feel that we have a ways to go before it becomes anything other than a fun project.

[TheJackal]

"i think the problem with this whole gun kata thing is that these days, a full fledged shoot out is a rare occurrence. usually someone walks up behind the victim and shoots him in the back of the head with a 22."

happens 2 me all the time

i dont want to sound awkward about this, but to be fair, large scale close combat battles very rarely occur (baring street brawls which are not QUITE the same thing), and yet anyone who trains in wudan is likely to train in formations such as the "big dipper" and the "nine towers" etc, whic hwer desighnd 2 take on hundreds of ppl. does this mean that wudan is useless? most if not all of the martial arts wer designed to give practitioners a better chance of survival in fights with many opponents as well as one, and the same can be true for the gun katta. the cia, fbi, sas etc all train in close combat defence agains guns. quik disarming techniques, rapid movements, learnin to take aim on any other asailants with the captured weapon whilst still taking out the first attacker. all of this is relevant, all of this is importatn. this is what we must do, this is what we must improve upon.

[ViolentMessiah]

jackal i wouldnt say that wu dan or any martial art is useless, however there is a big difference between the dojo and the street, ancient times and modern times. many of the techniques taught in martial arts schools of any style are obsolete. almost any black belt with years of training would be thrashed by a street fighter with real fighting experience.

while i agree that developing a gun kata is a worthy endeavor, the one drawback would be that trying it in the real world would be suicidal. i do believe that the CQB stuff you were talking about would be more realistic. however, defending against multiple armed attackers at long range is not feasible for the reasons i stated in my previous post. that doesnt mean we shouldnt try. if anything, it should make us more determined to proceed.....cautiously.