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Post by swingkid on Dec 22, 2003 22:57:03 GMT -5
Dupont said the gun-kata functions mainly on calculating the geometric distribution and angles...eh...such and such So in order to be a master of gun-kata, does that mean one has to have dexterious math skill also? I mean, you gotta be a computer to calculate in your head THAT fast!
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Post by Hostile on Dec 23, 2003 0:25:14 GMT -5
Interesting point... well I dont even know my times tables yet, so I guess my hopes of being a Cleric are shot
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Post by Cleric smith on Dec 23, 2003 3:46:15 GMT -5
Interesting point... well I dont even know my times tables yet, so I guess my hopes of being a Cleric are shot yeah same here
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Post by Coolhand on Dec 23, 2003 7:26:26 GMT -5
I could be wrong here, but my understanding is that the Clerics don't actualy work out the maths "on the fly." Rather, the tetragrammaton has worked out before hand that if "enemy A" is standing here and "enemy B" is standing here, then "this kata" is the best one to use to defeat them. The Clerics then just learn which kata stances suit which situations. In his Gun Kata speech, DuPoint uses the phrase "By the rote mastery of this art." Indicating that the Clerics are simply drilled in countless situations and correct stances for that situation. So whilst Gun-Kata is based on statistical probability, the actual maths is worked out by the people who came up with Gun-Kata (The Grammaton Monks? I'm sure Kurt Wimmier mentioned these guys in a commentry or interview somewhere), and they then just pass the results in a "if they do this, you do this" kind of way.
So you don't have to be a maths genius to practice gun-kata, just be good at reading combat situations and applying the best katas to them.
I could have got that compleatly wrong though...
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Post by Xenia Onatopp- Bale on Dec 23, 2003 8:47:54 GMT -5
I agree with Coolhand
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Post by Kodanshi on Dec 23, 2003 11:30:41 GMT -5
Me too. Have you seen any films where a martial arts expert (like Jackie Chan or, for more contemporary displays, Neo in The Burly Brawl against lots of Agent Smiths) takes on multiple opponents from all sides? They combine forward punches with backwards kicks, etc. to bring down more than one opponent. Gun Kata basically works in exactly the same way, but with guns and - therefore - opponents further away.
All Martial Arts that use weapons teach you to use the weapon as a part of the body, so the same would apply to guns.
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Post by Father on Dec 23, 2003 11:38:49 GMT -5
Kata stands for "repetition of moves". Just like other martial arts sports, you learn the moves over and over again until it becomes a second nature. In a real fight the moves will come automatically.
Also the placement "inside" surrounded by enemies will cause the enemy to hesitate because it could kill his own people. this is what I understand by Geometrical distribution.
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Post by Kodanshi on Dec 23, 2003 11:51:28 GMT -5
Exactly! Military training teaches troops to avoid surrounding an enemy in such a short space like that in order to avoid 'friendly fire' situations.
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Post by Libby on Dec 23, 2003 13:05:45 GMT -5
I agree with the theories here. Father's right in that it's to do with the Katas being second nature to the Cleric. They don't actually think (they don't have time). I remember a post somewhere about the few vital milliseconds before Preston explodes into action - he gets into the 'mind-set' and then he's basically infallible. The Sweeper captain in the Nethers knew this, but couldn't get himself or his men to shoot soon enough. The poor Sweepers had never been in a situation where a Cleric was their enemy!
Quick relapse into Educator mode: if you don't know your times tables then get learning! It's ok using a calculator/PC but how do you know if you've mis-keyed and got the wrong answer? Both my children knew their 2-12X by the time they were 7yrs old. They learned it by rote -just like the Katas. Hey! Maybe we should instigate a Times-Table Kata! ;D ;D
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Post by swingkid on Dec 24, 2003 0:07:02 GMT -5
You wouldn't believe the geek factor in me but I've been pausing and slow motion the cool scene where Dupont explains the gun-kata, you know when they graphically shows it on the computer, to figure out how they calculate the using the angles and such He he, new mission for the EQ fans: calculate the gun-kata ;D
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Post by Father on Dec 24, 2003 5:40:45 GMT -5
You wouldn't believe the geek factor in me but I've been pausing and slow motion the cool scene where Dupont explains the gun-kata, you know when they graphically shows it on the computer, to figure out how they calculate the using the angles and such He he, new mission for the EQ fans: calculate the gun-kata ;D You need the statistics from thousend of gun battles, then you can start to look for returning elements like angle of shooting, bullet trajectories and bla bla bla...
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 24, 2003 6:50:34 GMT -5
Yep, and you'd need to drill yourself into those moves once calculated - every single day for a set period of time each day...
*flashbacks to Katas in Martial Arts*
The pain...
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Post by ClericMike on Dec 25, 2003 21:10:37 GMT -5
Hey Wolf, wat kinda martial arts do you practice?
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 26, 2003 7:50:12 GMT -5
I once did Karate, Higashi Karate...but didn't like it all that much, too focussed on hard contact styles.
I then branched out to Kung Fu...Jeet Kun Do and a number of other things, picking bits up here and there. Since the Martial Arts started out pretty much that way, I'm not a great fan of formalised schools...learn the basics and then progress on your own path.
It's like writing, a friend of mine said about three days ago - you need to read this book that we publish on how to write a great novel.
To me that defeats the purpose of creating my own writing style - if I wanted to write like David Eddings or Stephen King, I'd just read a book of theirs on how to write like them...but why? when I can make my own ripples in the ocean of the world.
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Post by Xenia Onatopp- Bale on Dec 26, 2003 8:54:25 GMT -5
Cleric Wolf, are you already a black belter? Just asking.
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 26, 2003 11:59:36 GMT -5
When I was younger, yes. I don't go to formal training or anything now, but I still keep my hand in.
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Post by Rymel on Dec 28, 2003 1:38:20 GMT -5
see the question now is...how do you GET your opponents in such a situation where they may hesitate to fire because of a friendly in the vicinity of his target? although thinking back to police maneuvers....they're usually pretty close together...even if they're not directly opposite you, they're close enough together to employ gun kata techniques while closing the gap between you and the group, ultimately getting inside the group and making fire for them rather hard without hitting somebody else...
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Post by Rymel on Dec 28, 2003 1:42:46 GMT -5
another thing though...what about when they've switched to melee combat? i don't remember shaolin monks talking about geometric positioning...lol...
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 28, 2003 7:38:21 GMT -5
Main Entry: ka.ta Pronunciation: 'ka-ta: Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural kata or katas Etymology: Japanese, literally, model, pattern Date: 1945 : a set combination of positions and movements (as in karate) performed as an exercise
Notice, set combination of positions, so in essence - you are banking on a person being in position (a) for strike (b) to hit.
But I never did like Karate as much as the other martial arts.
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Post by Rymel on Dec 28, 2003 10:38:16 GMT -5
yea but 'banking' is kind of a bad way to put it....the entire reason the kata exists is because experience told them that people end up in those positions around you, and you work on the kata so that when the time comes it just becomes instinct, no thought. i also hope you can improvise, otherwise it's kind of pointless to take any kind of martial art...i dunno, i took some hung gar kung fu for a little while, and i remember asking them a similar question. they told me the applications of most of the first form, and it all became clear after that.
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 28, 2003 14:34:12 GMT -5
That's why I don't go for formal schools any more, too rigid. So quite possibly the Cleric has a number of set positions as we've seen, and then improvises based on what happens.
What really amazes me, and I just thought of this, for such a ruthless extermination of Sense Offenders and their equipment...they have a lot of firearms and some pretty nasty ones too.
Yeah, banking wasn't a good way to put it, but I'm still working off the Xmas cheer :>
With a sword, you're going to find that they're not going to be as hesitant to attack, since they're not really in much danger of harming the other person standing next to them - unless they're really bad at hitting people with knives or swords.
The problem is that you'd have to be so well drilled in several forms of the Weapon Katas, you'd need to be able to switch from one to the other, effortlessly. Wouldn't be good if you used a Gun move, in a sword fight for instance.
Yet with a Kata, each move is based on the Martial Artists study of many battles, knowing angles of attack and where the next opponent is going to be...but you have to improvise...unless you had an uncanny knack to sense your opponents position and movement before it happens, like a 6th Sense.
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Post by Rymel on Dec 28, 2003 23:12:23 GMT -5
haha, the intellectual arts, my friend i honestly don't know why they made the "elite guard" so hesitant and LOUSY on the attack. i know it's hollywood, but still...put up a DECENT fight :\ and i believe after the predawn clerics, all future clerics are trained from adolescence. this should make switchups and improvisations easier. i don't follow on the sense offender comment, elaborate?
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Post by pyro on Dec 28, 2003 23:31:39 GMT -5
i honestly don't know why they made the "elite guard" so hesitant and LOUSY on the attack. i know it's hollywood, but still...put up a DECENT fight :\ are you refering to the last fight with the resistance running out shooting up the sweepers? if you are, just remember the sweepers are wearing motorcylce helmets and being caught off guard. since this a movie, the resistance should have no trouble at all killing all the sweepers
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Post by Rymel on Dec 28, 2003 23:59:26 GMT -5
i was actually talking about the swordfight. they're entrusted with guarding the office itself, yet they put up a rather shitty fight. you'd think father would employ guards ALMOST as good as a tetragrammaton, or at least grammaton clerics in training to become one. that way he's at least semi-sure his guards are competent against their own elite. maybe.
but now that you mention it, i know it's a movie, but wouldn't you think the guards that were standing outside afterwards would've lifted their guns up a little fast after he came into the corridor? tsk tsk hollywood...
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 29, 2003 8:09:14 GMT -5
The Sense Offenders have access to some serious hardware, fully and semi-automatic weapons, a lot of firepower.
There must have been one heck of a cache outside in the Nethers.
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Post by Libby on Dec 29, 2003 9:26:15 GMT -5
but now that you mention it, i know it's a movie, but wouldn't you think the guards that were standing outside afterwards would've lifted their guns up a little fast after he came into the corridor? tsk tsk hollywood... Unless the Sweepers in the lobby had been warned beforehand, they'd have been (literally) caught off-guard. They wouldn't be expecting their highest-ranking cleric to start shooting at THEM! Also, (Ithink I've said this somewhere before) they aren't trained to deal with the Cleric -they're supposed to be on the same side!
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 29, 2003 9:37:03 GMT -5
I think the idea of a Cleric turning on the others would be the last thing, Father would ever think of, it's probably inconceivable for him to even consider.
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Post by Libby on Dec 29, 2003 9:51:25 GMT -5
Absolutely! I wanted to pick up on the other bit,too [quote author=Rymel link=board=general&thread=1072151823&start=23#1 date=1072673966]i was actually talking about the swordfight. they're entrusted with guarding the office itself, yet they put up a rather shitty fight. you'd think father would employ guards ALMOST as good as a tetragrammaton, or at least grammaton clerics in training to become one. that way he's at least semi-sure his guards are competent against their own elite. maybe. [/quote] I think this part of the same thing. The Council had never had a rogue Cleric before,(Partridge didn't count) so they were all on new ground. If you listen to DuPont's speech, especially the 'calmly...coolly..' bit, he is almost crowing. He felt he had played Preston faultlessly, but he hadn't counted on Preston regaining the pure Kata mind-set. The guards were unprepared (or maybe had been told Preston was not at his best). I even think Brandt shows a little hesitancy (stroking the Katana sheath) before he...well...dies.
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 29, 2003 10:02:33 GMT -5
And Remember, Preston almost lost to Brandt, and B was feeling pretty cocky in the confrontation - So I think he thought, Preston's going to be a push over.
But Preston's attack came without warning and without a single thought, just BAM!
Dead...Brandt...*thud* *slideyface*
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 29, 2003 10:14:25 GMT -5
when equilibrium first came out on DVD, i soooooo wanted a second disc w/ just gun kata on it. sort of like an exercise tape or something, but alas... -it still makes me mad how underhyped this movie was here in america.
-TrustKill-
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