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Feeling
Jun 10, 2007 23:48:56 GMT -5
Post by Drask Terleir on Jun 10, 2007 23:48:56 GMT -5
Hi I have a question for all the clerics and smart people: If librians cannot feel, does this mean they cannot feel pain? Starvation? Thirst? If they are shot, does the Prozium block pain? If they starve, then can they feel themselves dying?
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Feeling
Jun 11, 2007 0:52:02 GMT -5
Post by Aedh on Jun 11, 2007 0:52:02 GMT -5
Well, this is a world given to us for our enjoyment, with not too many details filled in. Hence you will find different theories. I've done my bit of thinking and writing, here's my two cents' worth, in order: No to everything except the last bit. It's not that Librians can't feel ... if that were so, there'd be no need for a law against it. There's no law anywhere, for example, against people walking on water or growing a second head. Librians can feel ... they're just not supposed to. Hence the mandated dose.
As I understand Prozium (and I have some real-life experience with this type of drug), it doesn't make the recipient physically numb, which is what I think you're talking about. It makes them emotionally numb. In normal life, we non-Librians are emotionally affected by many things, for example, music, art, books, memories, smells, sights, etc. A good Librian on his or her dose would certainly see/hear/smell as we do, and have physical sensations as we do. But those sights/sounds/smells etc., would (ideally) not stimulate any emotional reaction. So, for example, a heart-stopping musical ballad, or the sight of a sexy nude person, would cause no more emotional response than objects we take for granted, such as paper clips, rocks, dirt, rubbish, etc. However, Prozium doesn't work perfectly, even when people take their proper dose, which they don't always. Hence the action of the movie.
Remember this is an open conceptual world ... this is just my 'take.' You're free to develop your own. Of course, others are free to comment on it if you choose to share it. And welcome, newcomer, to our little corner of ... of ... whatever. Cyberspace.
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Feeling
Jun 11, 2007 3:10:27 GMT -5
Post by Libby on Jun 11, 2007 3:10:27 GMT -5
As I understand Prozium (and I have some real-life experience with this type of drug), it doesn't make the recipient physically numb, which is what I think you're talking about. It makes them emotionally numb. . Aedh's spot on and if you listen to Father's speech (when Preston is carrying the ampoules to drop in the crowd) you will him talk about Prozium, 'the great nepenthe' which cuts off the 'dizzying highs and abysmal lows'. The drug does not rob people of their sense of duty or honour and dutifully dosed Librians live to further their 'great society'. A good Librian on his or her dose would certainly see/hear/smell as we do, and have physical sensations as we do. But those sights/sounds/smells etc., would (ideally) not stimulate any emotional reaction. So, for example, a heart-stopping musical ballad, or the sight of a sexy nude person, would cause no more emotional response than objects we take for granted, such as paper clips, rocks, dirt, rubbish, etc. However, Prozium doesn't work perfectly, even when people take their proper dose, which they don't always. Hence the action of the movie. And so we have the amazing scene where Preston hears Beethoven's 5th and is overwhelmed. carrying the ampoules to drop in the crowd) you will him talk about Prozium, 'the great nepenthe' which cuts off the 'dizzying highs and abysmal lows'. The drug does not rob people of their sense of duty or honour and dutifully dosed Librians live to further their 'great society'. However, Prozium doesn't work perfectly, even when people take their proper dose, which they don't always. Hence the action of the movie. And the staggering number and size of the Equilibrium buildings. Regulating such a finely-balanced drug must be a real nightmare...
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Feeling
Jun 11, 2007 4:24:40 GMT -5
Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 11, 2007 4:24:40 GMT -5
To add to this, I could imagine a dosed Librian being shot...feeling the incredible pain, agony and so forth but the emotional response to it, the fear of death would be stopped or at least attenuated.
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Feeling
Jun 16, 2007 16:42:41 GMT -5
Post by Gothicgds on Jun 16, 2007 16:42:41 GMT -5
As I understand Prozium (and I have some real-life experience with this type of drug), it doesn't make the recipient physically numb, which is what I think you're talking about. It makes them emotionally numb. In normal life, we non-Librians are emotionally affected by many things, for example, music, art, books, memories, smells, sights, etc. A good Librian on his or her dose would certainly see/hear/smell as we do, and have physical sensations as we do. But those sights/sounds/smells etc., would (ideally) not stimulate any emotional reaction. So, for example, a heart-stopping musical ballad, or the sight of a sexy nude person, would cause no more emotional response than objects we take for granted, such as paper clips, rocks, dirt, rubbish, etc. That's something I've been musing on lately- how would someone on Prozium react to sexual response? Even though the emotional component of attraction would be surpressed, the physical element would still be there, right? I've seen it handled several ways in fanfic- some say that sex is performed only for procreation. That doesn't really ring true for me. It's a still a physical urge. You can ignore it, fight it, but it's still there. It seems to me that in an unemotional society lacking the quarrels about sexual morality, it would probably be viewed as simply another physical imperative. You get hungry, you eat, you get (er) hungry for sex, you have sex. It's one explanation for why they still have marriage- no mystery or courtship, you just go home and scratch the itch with your spouse. What do you think? (And yes, I freely admit I'm a perv.) ;D
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Feeling
Jun 16, 2007 19:54:01 GMT -5
Post by TheMacroprosopus on Jun 16, 2007 19:54:01 GMT -5
To add to this, I could imagine a dosed Librian being shot...feeling the incredible pain, agony and so forth but the emotional response to it, the fear of death would be stopped or at least attenuated. I dunno, man. That one cop that yelled "Fuck!" when he was about to take soem buckshot to the face seemed kinda scared, even while hopped up on advanced Paxil.
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Feeling
Jun 16, 2007 20:42:41 GMT -5
Post by Aedh on Jun 16, 2007 20:42:41 GMT -5
That's something I've been musing on lately- how would someone on Prozium react to sexual response? Even though the emotional component of attraction would be surpressed, the physical element would still be there, right? I've seen it handled several ways in fanfic- some say that sex is performed only for procreation. That doesn't really ring true for me. It's a still a physical urge. You can ignore it, fight it, but it's still there. It seems to me that in an unemotional society lacking the quarrels about sexual morality, it would probably be viewed as simply another physical imperative. You get hungry, you eat, you get (er) hungry for sex, you have sex. It's one explanation for why they still have marriage- no mystery or courtship, you just go home and scratch the itch with your spouse. I'm addressing this in a couple of ways in "Roses," which is admittedly a post-Prozium EQ-based world. In "Aeon Engine" (if it ever gets finished), sex is acknowedged and practiced, but it's hedged around with commercialism. This is intentional, in order to prevent romance with its emotional component from being too prominent. An "official" underground current in pornography is tolerated, and people are presented with "the facts of the matter" about sex literally from the cradle, to remove any mystery. 'Sexual harassment' laws are detailed, rigorously enforced, and the subject of frequent public instruction. so as to force people to undergo extensive negotiations before entering into any physical relationship. With these hedges, sex for two is tolerated, but under conditions which more or less guarantee that there's no romance. It's pretty commoditized. Sex for one--so to speak--is more the Librian way.
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Feeling
Jun 17, 2007 5:34:57 GMT -5
Post by Libby on Jun 17, 2007 5:34:57 GMT -5
That's something I've been musing on lately- how would someone on Prozium react to sexual response? Even though the emotional component of attraction would be surpressed, the physical element would still be there, right? Well...I'm not convinced about that. I suspect that Father's regime would have nipped that in the bud. I would have thought that the cocktail of drugs in Prozium would contain some sort of...for want of a better term...chemical castration, so Librians would have neither the emotional inclination or the physical one. KW tells us that procreation is in vitro so that side...including the 'donation' is strictly controlled.
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Feeling
Jun 17, 2007 13:15:23 GMT -5
Post by Gothicgds on Jun 17, 2007 13:15:23 GMT -5
I'm addressing this in a couple of ways in "Roses," which is admittedly a post-Prozium EQ-based world. In "Aeon Engine" (if it ever gets finished), sex is acknowedged and practiced, but it's hedged around with commercialism. This is intentional, in order to prevent romance with its emotional component from being too prominent. An "official" underground current in pornography is tolerated, and people are presented with "the facts of the matter" about sex literally from the cradle, to remove any mystery. 'Sexual harassment' laws are detailed, rigorously enforced, and the subject of frequent public instruction. so as to force people to undergo extensive negotiations before entering into any physical relationship. With these hedges, sex for two is tolerated, but under conditions which more or less guarantee that there's no romance. It's pretty commoditized. Sex for one--so to speak--is more the Librian way. Commercialized... but wouldn't a commercial aspect to society require emotions to inspire them to buy? It seems that Prozium dosing would ensure people buy what they need and no more. In fact, the monetary system itself wouldn't fit Libria very well- a system of rations based on one's position and performance seems more appropriate, and would cut down on individuality. But your premise is well thought out and far more interesting than just "no sex ever".
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Feeling
Jun 17, 2007 15:51:16 GMT -5
Post by Vespertilio on Jun 17, 2007 15:51:16 GMT -5
Hi I have a question for all the clerics and smart people: If librians cannot feel, does this mean they cannot feel pain? Starvation? Thirst? If they are shot, does the Prozium block pain? If they starve, then can they feel themselves dying? I think they feel all the physical sensations, but if it's not a life or death situation (where presumably, enough adrenaline would override the Prozium), they just don't care. The constant broadcast of "inspriational" speeches by Father is to provide motivation for the Librians to function, "I can't serve This Great Nation if I starve to death, better eat breakfast." Even then, I can imagine your average Librian going, "Ouch! Oh dear, I seem to have severed an artery, I suppose I should do something about that befo--" *thud* Perhaps those who's sense of self preservation (i.e. adrenaline reaction) is cut out by Prozium become Sweepers...
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Feeling
Jun 18, 2007 12:32:44 GMT -5
Post by Aedh on Jun 18, 2007 12:32:44 GMT -5
Commercialized... but wouldn't a commercial aspect to society require emotions to inspire them to buy? It seems that Prozium dosing would ensure people buy what they need and no more. In fact, the monetary system itself wouldn't fit Libria very well- a system of rations based on one's position and performance seems more appropriate, and would cut down on individuality. But your premise is well thought out and far more interesting than just "no sex ever". Well, instead of "commercialised," a better word would have been "commoditised." Publicity/advertising doesn't play much of a role either ... things can be commodites and be traded without any advertising ... think of your friendly local pot dealer, for example. He doesn't advertise ... but people know where to find him. The analogy here is very much that of cannabis in many neighbourhoods on the West Coast of the USA; somewhat de-criminalised, but definitely not LEGAL. (Remember too, I'm talking about the post-Prozium world of "Roses," not my take on the Prozium world itself.) Within the context of the movie world itself, sex urges obviously do play some role ... I don't think Mary and Partridge were getting together for a game of Thursday-night backgammon. Even the most powerful drug couldn't eliminate the urge ... you'd have to rebuild our DNA to get rid of it. I think, however, that Father's society DOES (or DID) have a comprehensive system in place to sublimate it and re-direct it into other channels. Witness the constant mass PT for example. As for how young Librians would survive puberty ... hmmm .... that's a good one. We didn't see any adolescents in the movie. Perhaps Libria finally developed the ability to do what centuries of parents have always dreamed of ... at their eleventh birthday, take 'em and stick 'em in a deep freeze locker for seven years.
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Feeling
Jun 18, 2007 13:38:40 GMT -5
Post by Libby on Jun 18, 2007 13:38:40 GMT -5
Even the most powerful drug couldn't eliminate the urge ... you'd have to rebuild our DNA to get rid of it. I think, however, that Father's society DOES (or DID) have a comprehensive system in place to sublimate it and re-direct it into other channels. Witness the constant mass PT for example. Not too sure about this either. Drugs with the right mix/dosage can indeed pretty much get rid of the 'urge' I think...it's the fact that Prozium has to be controlled so carefully that perhaps getting the dose right is why they're always off to the EQ Centres! You can't really judge things by our standards...there may well have been 'developments' to take care of such fundamental problems. And DNA or not, hormonal changes in normal humans can result in loss of libido at any age. As an afterthought, the TG would have to also deal with the ticking of another clock...the biological one. *chuckles* Mass PT sessions? That would be a hoot...everyone stops to dose then the whole of Freedom Square becomes a huge Tai Chi class!
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