Tired of those who think, and won't feel

[Orwell]

I have found references to Equilibrium having too much "cheese" while skimming the posts on this and a few other sites. I just have to say I can't take it any more. So this is to all of the nitpicking cry babies out there. To me what you call "cheese", I call heart. This man had such faith in an idea, he created it for what he saw. Rather than make every character a cardboard cutout of realism, he gave them passion. He let them say the things most are too afraid to, lest they be embarrassed among their peers. This was a product of his soul. He cared not about such petty things as "cheese" or misperceptions, because he had faith in your heart as well. How would you like it if someone questioned YOUR soul? How would you like it if someone made a mockery of YOUR vision? Few movies are made with such personal investment nowadays, so question the one's that aren't. You have plenty of targets. Leave this one alone, because you tread on Kurt Wimmer's dreams.

[Witcher Wolf]

Preachin to the converted here buddy, you need to post that to certain folks on the IMDB boards

[JenGe]

Well actually Wolf I believe that Orwell is commenting specifically on the remarks make on the thread "Cheesiest Movie Lines" where one of our own members stated lines from EQ.

I could be wrong but I'm fairly certain that I'm not.

[Libby]

I think you're right Jen...but even though you and probably most of us disagreed with aka's choice of cheesy lines, I don't believe it deserved a rant of such extremes. Just because we're devotees doesn't mean we're mindless and unable to see flaws!

And anyway, Orwell was just 'skimming'. Perhaps a little more in depth perusal would set him straight.

[JenGe]

Well, I'll be the first to admit that even though I respect aka's opinion it still caused me to bristle a tad.

[Orwell]

I said in what I wrote that it was meant for people that didn't respect films like this, because I'm sure there will be others in the future that will come on this site to attack the film's credibility. It wasn't meant to attack the fan's, and I thought you all would understand that. In fact, it wasn't an attack at all. Just a speech intended to lighten some people's lack of consideration in judging another's work. I often notice that there are some that are so careless to just right something off and move on. That makes me angry, not just of this movie, but of all such judgements. I just want people to be more compassionate. I'm very sorry if you felt insulted by what I wrote, but everything I write I stand behind. So I'm not sorry for writing it. I was just hoping this thread could be a guideline for what could be told to naysayers that have frequented or will frequent this site. That's all.

[JenGe]

Hey Orwell, thanks for clearing that up. We have had a few flamers on the site in the "olden" days but they've never lasted very long. Often I've kinda hoped that they would because I always love a good challenge & debate. That's probably the reason I keep hanging at Imdb & CHUD.

[Libby]

JenGe said:

Well, I'll be the first to admit that even though I respect aka's opinion it still caused me to bristle a tad.

Agreed...I did feel a ClericWolflike *twitch*! ;D

Personally, I loved the lines...DuPont's 'treading on my dreams' was absolutely necessary. I always imagine Preston's anger rising a good notch or two, as it cements the idea that Partridge's death was all part of the Machiavellian plan...

And Preston does indeed shoot...and smash... people in the face, He was merely stating the truth!

I think Orwell perhaps just hit upon a little of our 'light relief' threads. I'm not insulted at all.

[Witcher Wolf]

With every man or woman's vision comes the danger of those that will 'tread' upon it. We see it in all forms of media from the film industry to the game and roleplaying industry.

Do we have the right to critique anothers work? Do we have the right to offer comment upon any form of entertainment, be it book, movie, game or so on?

We are the ones that are being entertained by the medium at hand...most of us will offer a reasonable explanation why we like something or we don't like it...blanket statements are what get under my fur.

Unless you're a creator of /anything/ you can't actually know the dismal yawning abyss that appears when someone actually rips into your work.

I've seen people rip into my writing on so many levels, both published and non-published work. When I wrote Death: Guardian of the Gate, rather than take the book for what it was out came the needless accusations that I had stolen from Neil Gaiman by making the goddess of Death a woman.

That really pissed me off to be honest.

Neil Gaiman is a man who had an idea and the right kind of marketing...the idea of a female death personification is not his alone...for instance in celtic mythology you have an aspect of the Morrigan that governs death.

But for every bad review there were others that could see the work for what it was. Not a rip-off of Gaiman's idea but my own interpretation of characters and events that happened in my /own/ book world presented for the people to use in D20 games.

Yet to hear two reviews bitch about how I'd ripped Gaiman off nearly put me off doing what I do, for life.

So to some...certain lines in a movie might be 'Cheese' and certain things might not gel with that person...but they should at least respect other people's rights to like what they want.

Same with the Matrix...I wouldn't rate the Matrix over EQ but I enjoy the action non-the-less.

The moral of this story is: Mankind as a whole should stop looking at the small cracks in other people's walls and concentrate on their own walls that have big bloody holes in.

*endrant*

[Orwell]

That was a great speech, ClericWolf. I enjoyed it very much.

[Witcher Wolf]

Orwell said:

That was a great speech, ClericWolf. I enjoyed it very much.

*takes a bow*

Anyone who has a love for EQ and 'V' for Vendetta is a friend of mine *G*

[aka Jack Torrence]

I take it that the "offending" comment made by me--indirectly pointed out by Orwell in his initial post--was this:

And in Equilibrium, Father's "Careful Preston, you're treading on my dreams!" was SO cheesy! So was "If I was gonna shoot you I'd shoot you in the face!"

Let me just say, while I do consider these to be illustrative examples of cinematic cheese (which in any case is a term so vague that it runs the risk of being interpreted as a pejorative term), it was never my intention to badmouth Kurt Wimmer's product. (And I'd like to point out that my comments were made in a thread devoted specifically to cheesy cinematic moments, a fact which exonerates me from any charges of being a "soul crusher" or "nitpicking crybaby".) One's perception of "cheesiness" (and I won't attempt a definition of that word) is entirely subjective. In the things that I lightly call cheesy, others may perceive great underlying meanings and profundities.

I commend anyone who defends this film, and others, from the senseless, ignorant attacks of self-appointed critics. I have read the comments of many people who dismissed this film as a "Matrix rip-off" etc... That isn't fair criticism, that's just plain blindness and it is only right that it be identified as such.

But that's entirely different from suggesting that there were a few cheesy lines or moments in Equilibrium. All of the comments that were made in that thread--be them about Equilibrium or any other film--should be taken with a grain of cheese, er, I mean salt, a grain of salt.

[JenGe]

No worries aka. One man's cheese is another man's snack. Would you like some crackers & wine to go with that cheese??

[ClericThorpe]

Good one Jenge!Funnnnny! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That just tickled me,sorry. ::)I should probably get my interval adjusted!

[Alice]

I like cheese...
www.averagelife.org/error/404.html

[Libby]

Love your new site Alice...your graphics are ace! I like cheese too...Boursin, Brie, a nice bit of Wensleydale (Oops! Wallace and Grommit moment there!)

[aka Jack Torrence]

No worries aka. One man's cheese is another man's snack. Would you like some crackers & wine to go with that cheese??

That would be delightful.

As long as it's not that psuedo-cheese, "cheesy strings" or whatever they call it. Or Babybell.

[Wraith]

I think most people's reactions to movies are based on emotions anyway. Most, if not all, movies have their share of cheese, and if you come out of a movie not liking it, you're gonna find sufficient excuses to back your opinion up. (Although, sometimes, people come up with the dumbest crap). When I watch a movie, usually the logic of it doesn't matter to me that much unless it's really glaring; for me it boils down to "Were the characters done well enough so that I cared for them, or did I have fun watching the movie?" It also just depends on our tastes; not everyone likes the same type of movie.

[Aedh]

I deal with this SO much ... I've come to the conclusion that one person's overwhelming emotion is another person's "cheese" if they don't share the feeling ... experience of REAL life teaches that "cheese" is rampant ... when I was in the Service, one of my mates caught a bullet once ... he ACTUALLY said the immortal line: "They got me!" Which in a movie would be greeted with hoots and jeers ... needless to say, on the ground at that time, there was neither ... (He actually pulled through--it didn't hit a vital area)

When I write, the most important thing for me is creating real, complex, vivid charas with individual personalities ... so much so that I sometimes find the charas "channelling" things as I write that are not the first things I would have picked ... but with which I roll, and which often turn out to have been the best thing in the end ... some of these charas say and do things which strike even ME, the author as "cheesy ..." but if it is consistent with what the chara is going through, I often let it stand. I write only to satisfy myself, never critics ... and with luck, what satisfies me may appeal to others ... I think KW has an attitude similar to that ... that's why I like him.

There. That's my rant over. *looks around furtively ... takes double dose of interval*

[Airrider]

Which character to drop in where is difficult, innit? Remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what one thinks cheesy, others think incredible.

Unless, of course, you're watching a flick fit to watch on MST3K. Then it just plain stinks.

The trick, I think, is to make characters with distinct personalities that stand out without becoming one-dimensional.

You'd have to be on your umpteenth daily overdose of Prozium to not be emotionally moved by even one or two parts of a stock 80s action sequel-to-the-sequel-to-the-sequel of...I dunno...Chopping Mall or something. In some minute way. Step out of your little cocoon and into the film every once in a while. Hey, I think most of us here have.

Mow down Sweepers with Preston.
Dodge bullets with Neo.
Sink with Jack and Rose.
Hell, sit in the theater with Mike, Tom, and Crow.