|
Post by ClericVictor on Jan 13, 2004 9:13:09 GMT -5
yeah i did learn a lot. the good thing is my friends are willing to be silly with me and have airsoft fights regularly so i can develop more ill keep you posted Cool, damn, i need to try that aswell! And couse i have been doinng gymnsatics in 5 years, i think i could handle the job, but i doubt that i would not get hit, just as you mentioned
|
|
JonF
Resistance Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by JonF on Jan 13, 2004 9:34:27 GMT -5
My bokken comment was aimed purely at the site selling the ones that were pointed out, but they do resemble the EQ ones and so would be a great choice for sparring. You could probably even modify them further if desired. Also, about the P90 thing, here's a sweeper holding one of the rubber props in the movie www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/ItalianStill2crop.JPG You can see how short the front of the gun is. Now, I realise the 5.7mm bullet is pretty high velocity for a subgun and so will kick some, but I don't see that dual-use would be beyond what we've seen a Cleric can do. It would be my recommendation if you wish to practice with dummy guns and you're set on the idea of dual smgs/rifles. Go for the G11 if you're planning to go for single rifle kata, with one major drawback; I know of no replicas here is the direct link on HK Pro for those who want it. www.hkpro.com/g11.htm
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 13, 2004 10:10:49 GMT -5
there is a pistol that fires the 5.7mm ammo that the P90 uses called the Five-SeveN. it has very similar recoil to a 9mm as pronounced by every review i have read. Five-SeveN -as for PDW's, how about looking into MP-7 like i was talking about earlier. MP-7 ammo it fires 4.6mm ammo at nearly 2 times the velocity of the 5.7 FN ammo and will similar recoil to a 9mm para rd as well. EDIT: also, for single-assault rifle techniques, why not use the FN F2000, a full assault rifle made by the same people that make the P90. it has a front ejection tube system where the bullets simply fall out of the front of the gun. maybe youll recognise it (if you are a splinter cell fan) F2000 -TrustKill-
|
|
JonF
Resistance Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by JonF on Jan 13, 2004 12:03:06 GMT -5
Yep, FN2000 would be another good choice. If I'm honest though, I would tend to think that the Clerics only really need their sidearms and swords. Obviously they're trained to make tactical use of opponents weapons (vis Preston's flip-kick-catch of the G36, disarming and use of sweeper's own rifle, the shotguns etc), but I'd hesitate to overcomplicate their standard loadout. I like the idea of priveliged clerics having two pairs of pistols, perhaps of different lengths. As someone said, it would explain the sleeve holsters vs coat holsters. Also, it would explain any scenes in the movie where guns change parts/lengths and ammo lasts for too long
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 13, 2004 12:28:05 GMT -5
my opinion, (just an opinion) is that the clerics specialize in tactical pistol combat.
the need for submacine guns and etc. are really reserved for the sweeper teams and regular police units. granted, they should be crossed train, but on a regular day, the story gives us no other indication other than the clerics carry their sidearms only.
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 13, 2004 13:31:07 GMT -5
i agree w/ enemies. and besides... just because the clerics may be adept w/ most forms of weaponry doesnt mean that there has to be a form of kata for each kind. they can just be "good" with the rest of the weapons.
-trustkill-
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 13, 2004 15:37:32 GMT -5
exactly!
im going to be doing some more airsoft games this week! i wish all you guys could join me, im going to concentrate on the mathematical side of gun kata, angles and such, which is why those screen captures were so helpful.
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 13, 2004 15:57:19 GMT -5
oh man, i just found a site that is going to be helpful indeed. here is a link ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Dreyer_infonet/zeninfo.htmwhen you get to the site look on the right side for "zen in the art of shooting" here is something off that page "Kenjuudo, literally translated as the "Way of the Pistol," is the appropriate Japanese name for our sport when practiced as a traditional Zen martial art. "
|
|
|
Post by JenGe on Jan 13, 2004 19:06:49 GMT -5
My bokken comment was aimed purely at the site selling the ones that were pointed out, but they do resemble the EQ ones and so would be a great choice for sparring. You could probably even modify them further if desired. No worries Jon. I just made the comment because there had been several posts about the bokkens. You certainly would not want to actually spare with the type used for the film. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 15, 2004 15:57:48 GMT -5
hey trustkill, rymel, anything new?
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 15, 2004 17:53:59 GMT -5
rymel is MIA...
anything new from me? not really. ive been working on some of the chart-work at my house. needless to say, its not here.... at work. ::sigh::
-ill let you know as soon as i get some decent work done. hopefully rymel shows back up with more progress than i have.
-Trustkill-
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 16, 2004 0:42:45 GMT -5
yeah im still working on some stuff as well.
i got some friends to help me out on semi-regular basis, hopefully i will get a lot done before i have to leave for tour
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 16, 2004 14:36:02 GMT -5
hopefully i will get a lot done before i have to leave for tour -you know you wanna write a sweet song about gun-kata... -TrustKill-
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 16, 2004 14:38:42 GMT -5
haha, maybe, but we are def. going to use a sound clip from EQ as a sample to start one of our songs on the new album!
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 16, 2004 14:41:22 GMT -5
ohhhhh man! thats big news.
-i was going to ask you about purchasing a t-shirt from you somehow. is this possible?
-TrustKill-
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 16, 2004 14:46:31 GMT -5
you can get em on our site,, or just email me your addy and size and ill hit you up with one www.aloveforenemies.comerich@aloveforenemies.com **by the way big airsoft game goin down here on sunday, i've sketched out some more forms im gonna try out, ill let you know each scenario so you can help me with some charts and stuff
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 16, 2004 14:52:48 GMT -5
cool...
ill probably PM you my address and stuff. im no freeloader, ill pay and stuff just so you know. good luck on tour, whenever that may be.
-anyway... big airsoft game on sunday, you say? too bad i live in kansas city. yeah, layout some scenarios and we can try to describe up some working ideas.
good luck being the guinnea pig, hehehehe.
-TRustKill-
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 16, 2004 16:20:31 GMT -5
yeah its mostly going to be 7 guys versus me at one point or another. good chance to try some of this theory out! i have to watch EQ a bunch of times before i go, like the gigantic nerd i am
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 16, 2004 16:22:43 GMT -5
^^^of course you do. you have to get all FIRED up for it. wish i could be there.
-TrustKill-
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 16, 2004 16:26:50 GMT -5
hah me too, every cleric should have a partner!
just to give you some specs, ill be using two taurus pt92 electric blowback pistols
the opposition will be using a combination of automatic electric rifles, spring rifles , gas pistols, electric pistols
my goal is to lure them in close to me, and try out some angled attacks. if you can, try to make a graph/chart where the cleric is in the middle of a large group , say 10, people surrounding him in a circle, (like the gun butting scene) try to plot out what you think the most likely path of return fire would be coming from the opposition. this will help with movements of the gun kata user.
if you can
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 16, 2004 16:39:10 GMT -5
im on it...
-TrustKill-
EDIT: a couple questions? which hand is your dominant hand? right-handed? how is your aim w/ your left hand?
-im trying to work out a line of attack from enemy to enemy based on your preferences. i can mold it differently if your second-hand shooting is as capable as your primary hand.
-let me know. i may have to email it you, since i dont have a host site.
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 16, 2004 16:59:17 GMT -5
im right handed,
i have only shot single left handed a few times
double only in airsoft
my aim lefty is pretty good
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 16, 2004 17:05:06 GMT -5
okay... im working on a line of fire chart.
i have a cleric (you) in the center of 8 enemies that are established in an octogonal shape around you(i chose 8 just to round off the number.)
-i have a line of sight angle estimation set up also, as well as a front, back, left and right lines.
-im doing this by hand so it is going to be messy... the right hand order lines are going to be numbered and drawn from enemy to enemy w/ a red pen, while the left hand stuff is going to be done in green.
after i am finished, and happy with my results, i will scan it and save it to my computer here. PM me an email address?
-TrustKill-
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 16, 2004 18:52:12 GMT -5
ok let me know when its ready! sounds good so far
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 18, 2004 1:26:54 GMT -5
ohh boy...here goes...*deep breath* anonymoustipster, we weren't talking about replacing the cleric's standard sidearm entirely, just..augmenting it, i guess. looking at the p90, it can work rather well, as it is a bullpup design, my favorite rifle design. since the grip is closer to the front of the barrel, the recoil could be controlled better. i also mentioned in the description of said technique that since the recoil is expected to be a problem, extended arm firing was expected to be limited at best. i was picturing a close body style, which would work within the confines of a person's physical limits, at least at first. with conditioning i don't see why you couldn't hold the rifle out farther than a 120 degree arm angle. also as JonF pointed out you could fashion an arm brace to compensate some for recoil, a very viable possibility since so much of the FUNCTIONING part of the weapon is along the forearm, and strapping it to the practitioner's limb would transfer the force to the rest of the body, in which the practitioner could merely compensate with body bracing techniques. PDWs are a good idea, but i had that more in mind for a separate form of handgun style, since it's basically the same, with a higher rate of fire. and that MP-7 is lookin mighty good... i also can't speak for the p90, but an M16 is 7.5 lbs, and it kicked my ass GOOD in boot. BUT after some conditioning it wasn't as bad anymore. i kinda miss boot...is the p90 spring compensated for recoil like the M16? if it was it would make recoil much less of an issue. i should make it clear right now after reading yours and JonF's posts that we're not looking to REPLACE the standard sidearms, only enhance the practitioner's total repertoire, if you will. should SMGs and rifles be placed in the same category? i mean some SMGs are pretty small, and have a wider range of motion...and regarding single rifle kata, a rifle butt may be favorable, since it can be incorporated in with melee attacks. the G11's butt end could be used nicely. Jon, those calico firearms look good, but one thing that worries me is when the weapon is held upside down, for example above or behind the head. will the shells jam in the exit hatch, or will it just fill up and fall out when it reorients? i love the G11, because of the sheer power and LACK of waste production, and the recoil taking effect AFTER the burst... i'm on a ninjutsu group right now, and they never discussed swords so i'm not sure. they just bitch and moan about the trivialities of which style is part of the bujinkan or not, and it's really stupid imho. i'm inclined to think they used a straight sword since it might've been easier to draw from behind the back (i could be wrong), and it allowed easier stabbing and chopping motions, as well as making it easier to slice the throat. also keep in mind that the ninja have INTENTIONALLY lied to the public about their history as well. don't know what's a ninjato though...and i don't think the bokken i linked need to be modified at all, i think they're fine and perfect for our purposes. clericvictor, you could do us a lot of help by working on breakfall techniques, maybe combined with firing positions. rolls too. if you're up for it, welcome to the project trustkill, that five-sevel looks like a sweet gun, very clean looking. i'm still lovin that MP-7 though...::drools::...that exit velocity is lookin mighty tasty, too. and i considered the F2000 through my searches through the world of guns' rifle section. it fits the futuristic feel of the style as well (i know, sounds lame, but yea) jon we're not complicating the standard loadout at all, standard loadout without saying are the 2 handguns, although which guns are up to the cleric, and PDWs should be allowed as secondary carries, or maybe even primaries if they have a semi auto function (and i believe they do). of course PDWs become an issue with sleeve holsters, but i don't see any real and pratical way for US to implement that so we're not gonna worry about it...and i also love the idea of customizable standard sidearms. since the standard loadout WILL be handguns, why not let them customize to increase their own efficiency? enemies, i understand that clerics are tactical pistole specialists, but since we're developing the art well beyond what we've been presented with why not increase its range? i mean it's not like we'll have or need sweeper teams anytime soon...i hope...;D since it's been brought up so many times, i feel i should clarify - the practitioners will always, always have their standard weapons, their handguns. those who wish to specialize have the OPTION of carrying their other weapons if they so feel inclined, but only if it's necessary and if the bottom line says they can. otherwise you're SOL and you're stuck with your standards, so i hope you're proficient in them. i'm just tossing the idea of specialized katas around for the sake of knowing. i mean that's what martial arts weapons training is all about, right? knowing? i'm still reading the zen in the art of shooting article, i'll comment on it later. i've been MIA cuz i just found out my CABLE is out due to an argument with a parental unit in my house, so no cable until i pay for it myself. and no paying for it til my JOB stops jerkin me around and GIVES ME HOURS. so i'm doing runs between my neighbor's house and my mom's house which i'm only at during the weekends... my progress is odd, kinda dynamic. i haven't put anything down on paper yet but i'm always thinking about techniques and such and it's always changing as well so it's hard to get something more concrete as it's constantly evolving. also i've been playing that new game Manhunt recently (just beat it last night! w00t!) and it's been changing the way i've been thinking about melee gun combat greatly. i've been thinking a lot about silent tactics, sneak attacks, surprise techniques...i figure even if the enemy SEES you you can still pull a few shocker techniques on them. i mean EQ portrayed a cleric as a no-holds-barred, in-your-face close combat warrior, but what happens when he's not yet in that kind of action yet? say he's comin down a corridor and hears someone coming from around the bend. when he gets close enough, the cleric can either pull the rifle, pulling the unassuming assailant forward, raise their weapon over the pulling arm, and administer a head shot. this brings to mind preston's quote "if i was going to shoot you i'd shoot you in the face" ;D. however there's also the concept of deflection. most people approaching a corner may be suspicious, but are never fully prepared. so what if you pushed or pulled the weapon to one side of the opponent? their weapon would be out of effective firing range, or if timed right the opponent would even move over, leaving the cleric clear for a perfect shot. there's also using the weapon as leverage for arm locks/breaks and throws...i'm sure i don't have to go into detail for in-combat techniques utilizing shots or strikes to the crotch as the ultimate shock technique in close combat... hrm, aside from the influence of manhunt, i've been trying to think of melee techniques without having to flip the gun to grab the barrels for hammer strikes. the standard pistol whip comes to mind but i thought about something...in heated close quarters combat, anything can make the opponent flinch, especially an untrained one. so what if a cleric was in heated melee combat with multiple assailants, and he faked a strike, pulling the slide and ejecting a bullet at the opponent's face to make him flinch before redirecting the strike to one of the other targets? the opponent would most likely flinch and overcompensate expecting a full-blown pistol strike, delaying him long enough to get in a hit or two on the other opponents before returning attention to his now slightly unnerved target, who may still be hesitating (and returning) from the previous feint strike as the cleric returns to finish him, amplifying the damage since he's now moving INTO the strike rather than away from it. lemme know if you guys think i'm crazy or somethin.
|
|
|
Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 18, 2004 17:23:37 GMT -5
wow rymel. when you post, you POST. i think each person (cleric) can choose which side arm works the best based on balence and technique thats what im trying to figure out for myself, airsoft anyways
|
|
|
Post by Rymel on Jan 18, 2004 17:46:29 GMT -5
wow rymel. when you post, you POST. i think each person (cleric) can choose which side arm works the best based on balence and technique thats what im trying to figure out for myself, airsoft anyways haha um...thanks? i only do that when i either come up with some crazy ideas or i'm way behind on posts, which i was 3 pages late on... i think the standard issue should go no questions asked, but after say a certain rank (or in our case belt, class, whatever) they should be able to deviate, although they should have to follow certain parameters, allowing PDW use only after an even higher level. kinda like how you can only train in certain weapons after certain belts in other martial arts. of course like martial arts nothing's stopping you from private practice of advanced techniques, but whatever, right? edit: could i be a possible candidate for training in the legendary post kata? ?
|
|
|
Post by Witcher Wolf on Jan 19, 2004 6:42:31 GMT -5
Possibly, we shall see
|
|
JonF
Resistance Member
Posts: 61
|
Post by JonF on Jan 19, 2004 6:53:46 GMT -5
Wow indeed! Understood about loadouts.
About the calico, obviously this is guesswork, but I would imagine although it isn't designed to fire upside down, the shells will still be ejected with some force and so stoppages would hopefully be limited. Thinking about it though, you may be right, and the same would apply to any bottom-ejecting weapon - why would the designers need to have anything but gravity ejection? Bummer!
|
|
|
Post by TrustKill on Jan 19, 2004 11:43:39 GMT -5
so what if a cleric was in heated melee combat with multiple assailants, and he faked a strike, pulling the slide and ejecting a bullet at the opponent's face to make him flinch before redirecting the strike to one of the other targets? the opponent would most likely flinch and overcompensate expecting a full-blown pistol strike, delaying him long enough to get in a hit or two on the other opponents before returning attention to his now slightly unnerved target, who may still be hesitating (and returning) from the previous feint strike as the cleric returns to finish him, amplifying the damage since he's now moving INTO the strike rather than away from it. lemme know if you guys think i'm crazy or somethin. -yes, i think you are crazy... for posting this much. it took me like 4 minutes to delete my quote down to the part i wanted to talk about... the part up above, about ejecting a shell into someones face, why not tilt the position of the cleric's wrist and fire at another opponent, thus the spent cartridge will be expelled towards the enemy you intend to frazzle AND you dont waste an unspent round. make sense? i like the idea of using the weapon itself to distract the enemies from firing upon you, but the idea of actually pulling the slide and releasing a round sort of makes me wince. what if you need the ammo, you know? enemies, sorry i missed your airsoft game yesterday. the layout i made was pretty cool, unfortunately i couldnt get to the scanner here in the office it was too busy. ill try to get it on sometime this week. in my opinion, the chart that i made needs to be layed on top of the one you made, with the different footings, and actually layed out step by step based on the enemies you are encountering. each step would show the line of sight, line of attack for both left and right hands, footing positions, and direction of travel for the next set of targets. then, at the end of the set of charts, all of them can be combined into one final motion chart, which is essentially what i sketched up on friday. its simple and needs some tweaking (like the line of sight changes and footings) and the whole final motion chart will need to be color coded so you can see the steps in order on it. sorry if this doesnt make sense. hopefully it will after i get it posted... -TrustKill-
|
|