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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 17:34:44 GMT -5
Here's one for you, in EQ you'll see that there are a number of Video Walls and other devices. Perhaps there's a holographic projection device, that the Cleric stands within, to learn the basic form of the Kata... So he can match his movements with the model Cleric.
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 17:36:35 GMT -5
thats a good idea, and not too hard to re-create really. just a bunch of tvs, and some video tapes of a person doing the movements. maybe from different angles, but its definitely possible.
-TrustKill-
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 17:41:10 GMT -5
-rymel:
im trying to think up a base handgun to actually use for our system we are working on here.
-the ones used in equilibrium are inefficient due to their larger size(takes longer to zero the barrel on target). due to the nature of the type of battles they would be used in, it is important that they have some sort of muzzle block i.e. the clerics pistol, otherwise an assailant can simply palm the end of the gun and push the slide back and the gun wont fire. i dont think compensators would really be an issue, but barrel weights to help center the pistol might work.
-either way, the pistols would probably be pretty small, but have to hold a decent amount of ammunition. anyone have any ideas for it?
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Dec 30, 2003 17:55:30 GMT -5
y'know come to think of it they DID have holographic projectors in that movie...maybe...
but we don't, so we're SOL, lol.
trust, i was thinking of sticking with the beretta 92FS or something similar, or maybe even glock. but currently since i don't think i'll be trying this with live ammo anytime soon i consider it a bit of a triviality. but since berettas are used by military for reliability, and glocks can fire after brutal abuse so those are good candidates. i'm just worried about kickback, in which case the modifications you mentioned would be necessary. and i think compensators are very necessary if you want to fire in any direction without kickback. i think the compensator shot in 4 directions for stability, the work involved in figuring that out would probably be a pain, but well worth it. and now that i think about the counterweight and muzzle block, the guns are gonna be pretty heavy. oh well, more training, no?
lastly, in terms of ammunition...how many rounds are standard in those two guns i mentioned? do they sell replacement lower receivers with extended grips for larger clips? i think in the end our weapons of choice will only be a shadow of their former selves...wolf, any input?
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 18:01:07 GMT -5
you can purchase pre-ban hicap mags for beretta 92's and glock 17 that hold 15 rds. that plus one in the chamber equals 16... thats what they used in equilibrium... they used to make beretta 93R mags that held 23 rds and they make extended glock mags also(see reloaded: morpheus uses a glock 18C with 30 rd mags)
-a four way compensator is not too hard to figure out really, it would just need good mill-work. ever think about suppressors? a lot of them have recoil dampening systems built into them. plus the length would increase the balance like we would want. just a thought.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 30, 2003 18:02:31 GMT -5
I'd say rep Beretta 92's or something like that, to be honest, I'm more of a sword person though heh...I have a small collection of them.
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 18:07:39 GMT -5
glock 17's are pretty well rounded. small enough to not be intrusive, large enough to have decent capacity and to accomodate most people's hands. also, yeah... they can take a hell of a beating. and they are light due to the polymer frame.
-beretta's are nice, yes, and they arent without a shit-ton of aftermarket accessories. you can get just about anything for them, but they dont have an accessory rail, which may come in handy unless you are planning to modify the frame itself. there are versions of beretta 9's that have a frame rail now that i think of it, so nevermind...
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Dec 30, 2003 18:34:15 GMT -5
so we have some basic rules for choosing our weapon: our current candidates, although i'm not sure if they fill the requirements completely are: i'm gonna do my own homework on handguns since i haven't yet. i also found out even airsoft guns are illegal in nyc, so i may have to resort to locating an illegal one and removing key parts ;\
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 30, 2003 22:31:44 GMT -5
no airsoft in your state? that blows. oh well...
if you want, i can come up with some handgun designs. sort of as my part of the deal.
-i do that stuff for fun anyway, since i write sci-fi and military types of stories.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Dec 30, 2003 22:51:24 GMT -5
that'd be cool if you could. i think i like the beretta though.
turns out my friend was wrong, and i can get em. i also found out a friend has 2 already that he's willing to part with. gas powered beretta 92's, one of them has a broken spring and needs new screws but that's minor. $70 for both! and some bb's and gas, sweet deal. hopefully i'll get em soon ;D
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 31, 2003 9:27:21 GMT -5
not a bad deal... good luck.
-TrustKill-
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Post by TrustKill on Dec 31, 2003 10:42:50 GMT -5
okay... heres what ive got... compensator: sort of octogonal, with two large ports on the top. two more would obviously need to be milled out on the bottom but this is sort of the style im thinking. -gun: its call the beretta 92 IA and it has a tactical rail mount on the bottom to compete with the glocks -rail: some sort of extended rail would need to be added over the existing one. one that would reach close to the end of the compensated muzzle. not for any attachments neccessarily, but so a user could put barrel counterweights where ever along the whole front of the frame. something like this... -overall: the finished product would look something like this, but hopefully more streamlined. granted, almost all of these pics are from airsoft sites, but most of the products can be purchased or improvised for real steel weapons as well. -the compensator will obviously be different, but yeah, its a pretty good mock-up of what we may be looking at. -TrustKill- edit: okay okay... one more thing to consider... in a gun kata style cqb battle, there is a huge chance of your gun getting grabbed. im going to see what i can find similar to these things in the way of glocks because they have almost no external parts. the safety lever, decocker, and external hammer are all things that could become hindrances. tell me what you all think. just a thought...
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Post by Rymel on Dec 31, 2003 16:55:33 GMT -5
that's some good homework there, and would be great for our practice guns which initially will probably be airsofts anyway. in terms of real weapons, if and when we ever get them, we'd probly just do what they did for the movie and consult a gunsmith and have a new frame milled entirely. expensive, but i don't think you're planning on losing your gun anytime soon. as for the grabbing problem, i'm not sure what to do about that. maybe a sheath over it?
also...glocks don't have safeties? isn't that a requirement?
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 3, 2004 13:01:21 GMT -5
Hey im a competitive pistol shooter as well as a martial artist (iado,Kendo) ive been thinking about this topic as well, id be glad to offer my help to anyone. i think as far as the gun you can use, i would reccomend airsoft pistols, they are cheap and safe. There are some nice blade master beretta series and 92/96f series (with compensator) that would work well. let me know if i can help anyone!
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Post by Rymel on Jan 4, 2004 3:07:23 GMT -5
hello clericenemies, welcome to the brewing chaos!
your knowledge from competition shooting and iaido and kendo would be of great value to our development. maybe you could work on a little bit of the blade aspect? both single blade, double blade, and gun/blade?
btw where are you from? how about everyone else? maybe some of us are close enough to each other to be able to meet up and work on it in person, making progress easier.
since you're also a competition shooter, i'm sure you could figure out quite a few things concerning live fire...i'm personally working on melee combat as well as combined knife/gun tactics. how about you trustkill? clericwolf? i never really did ask you two what you wanted to work on. was it just gun kata in general?
i've been thinking a lot about gun-butt techniques, and a lot of what i've been thinking about is leaning towards splashing hands, chin na and just plain brute force. how about you guys, anything?
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 4, 2004 14:56:21 GMT -5
Hey im from Long Island NY,
i think live fire is def a long long way off, too many safety concerns, i think the development should start with non-firing props, then move to airsoft, then maybe air-pistols that fire pellets or such, live fire may never be an actually until years of development. even then i wouldnt reccomend it.
as far as my iado expirence, a lot of body position and katas from that art seem to fit well with what we are trying to do. as well as the art of drawing your weapon. im currently trying to translate some forms of japanese sword techniques into single handed pistol forms, then on to dual pistol forms.
i'll let you know my progress.
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Post by Rymel on Jan 4, 2004 17:44:36 GMT -5
hm, interesting. but how would sword drawing techniques translate into handgun drawing? or do you mean the forms?
i don't expect to EVER move to live fire. and if i were to use airsoft i'd be using airsoft paintballs since the mark would help in practice. although even then i don't expect to use airsofts for firing until after i've practiced without. where in long island? i'm from staten island, so it's a bit of a trip to LI, but we can still work on gun kata regardless, maybe even meet up in the city. although it'd just be talk, since our lovely city isn't too keen on anyone playing with even a fake gun ;D
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 4, 2004 17:53:40 GMT -5
nice to have a new face to add to the drawing board...
-i was just planning on working on the design of the actual weapons and a lot of the actual positioning and tactics. i know that is sort of broad but yeah. ill help out where ever.
-TrustKill-
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 4, 2004 18:15:39 GMT -5
enemies, what kind of gun do you use for competition shooting? racegun? just curious.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 5, 2004 1:09:03 GMT -5
right now i use a taurus 9mm 92SPL for action shooting comps,
for target comps, i recently got a springfield .45 1911 long slide.
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Post by Rymel on Jan 5, 2004 4:11:28 GMT -5
how are the gun laws in LI? can you bring someone without a license to shoot at a range? gun laws are pretty strict in nyc, even just to get a target license...i'd like to try a few rounds at the range before i decide it's actually worth the money to GET it, y'know?
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 5, 2004 12:15:31 GMT -5
im not sure ive never brought anyone down, next time i go ill ask the guys at the range that question.
i know nyc is pretty tough with that, the toughness on firearms is understandable
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Post by Jon on Jan 5, 2004 13:15:39 GMT -5
Gun-wise, you might be able to get screen-accurate resin props for the kata, but as you've already realised, the airsoft blowbacks are too damn rare. However, you can already purchase the beretta with compensator and rail interface you mention. Simply search for Western Arms blademaster 3 (an airsoft GBB). However, two of these will still set you back $200 minimum. But its close enough looks wise and would meet all your requirements.
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 5, 2004 13:29:14 GMT -5
the western arms blademaster III's are tricky to find now, since they were made in limited edition. plus, yeah... the whole 'really really expensive as hell' thing is sort of a drawback.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 5, 2004 15:40:27 GMT -5
the hfc "super p8" aka the tomb raider pistols would work good i think, they are easy to find and the airsoft ones are cheap. they are about the same length, and might even work better than the blademaster iii's. shortyusa.com/they have em' for about 30 bucks,
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 5, 2004 15:46:00 GMT -5
yeah, the super 8's are alright. i just wish they were easier to find in a gas/semi-auto format.
-TrustKill-
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Post by Rymel on Jan 5, 2004 17:38:11 GMT -5
i thought about the super p8 too, the size is about right and it looks pretty badass, heh. i'm worried about kickback though in practical application. i wonder if we can get documented measurements of kickback in a standard beretta 92FS vs one that's been barrelweighted and compensated? or any other gun for that matter.
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Post by TrustKill on Jan 5, 2004 17:55:21 GMT -5
im pretty sure with enough digging, one can come up with that info, rymel. it just might take time/knowing the right people/series of emails. stuff like that...
-its worth a shot though...
-TrustKill-
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Post by Cleric Enemies on Jan 6, 2004 10:38:10 GMT -5
hey, i 'll research that info for you, lets just concentrate on the forms and such first. however i just got the desert eagle electric blow-black from shortys' in the mail yesterday, its semi auto and might be good for training.its cheap too.....
anyways... i am in the process of writing the first part of a "manual" so to speak on the forms im working on. ill keep ya'll posted.
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Post by Rymel on Jan 6, 2004 12:23:37 GMT -5
now the desert eagle IS a gun i'm afraid of. the recoil on that would be too dangerous for gun kata, IMHO. for the user more than the receiver. on the other hand, if you were strong enough to handle those...
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