The Origin of Tetragrammaton

[ClericMike]

This has been bugging me for a while... A tetragram is a word with four letters. What does that have to do with a form of government? Any explanations or theories will be awesome.

[Cleric Enemies]

that is a good question, also, is this worldwide? just the US,Europe?

[TrustKill]

this is just a weird stretch... but maybe, just maybe...

a four letter word used to describe bad words, no? its a general description for things that are deemed cursing by society.

-in media and/or society, so called "four-letter words" are censored, right? in the society in EQ, the citizens are censored essentially from anything that provokes emotions, ie: content EC-10...

-the ending tetragramm(aton) i believe is used as a descriptor for something being an agent of (correct me if im wrong.)

-how i see it is this. the tetragrammaton is a government agency that is basically full of agents of censorship. does this make sense to anyone but me? i know its a bit of a read into things, but from your description, it sort of makes sense.

-TrustKill-

EDIT: i looked up the modifier "-aton" in the dictionary... its not there specifically, but it is very similar to "-ator" which means: one who or that which acts or does. i dunno...

[Libby]

Interesting ideas. The site gives the dictionary definition as:

'Tetragrammaton - The four Hebrew letters usually transliterated as YHWH or JHVH, used as a biblical proper name for God. '

This is pronounced Yahweh, meaning Lord or God, but is also Father.

The Jewish Encyclopaedia gives some further definitions:

'...various hypotheses have resulted in offering the following definitions:
1) he who calls into being, or he who gives promises;
2) the creator of life;
(3) he who makes events, or history;
(4) the falling one, the feller, i.e., the stormgod who hurls the lightning;
(5) he who sends down the rain (W. R. Smith, "The Old Testament," p. 123);
(6) the hurler;
(7) the destroyer

Food for thought

[JenGe]

Here is an older thread on the subject & symbol that you guys might find interesting...

Tetragrammaton Symbol

[corinthian]

There was an earlier thread called "The Symbols in EQ". Here is what I had said there regarding some research using the Dictionary of Symbols:

For the symbol of the tetragrammaton, there seem to be a couple of possibilities.

The DoS goes on for pages about the symbolism of the cross, but has this as well: "Sometimes the cross is T-Shaped, further emphasizing the near-equilibrium of the opposing principles.. Jung comments that in some traditions the cross is a symbol of fire and of the sufferings of existence, and that this may be due to the fact that the two arms were associated with the kindling sticks which primitive man rubbed together to produce fire and which he thought of as masculine and feminine. But the predominant meaning of the corss is that of Conjunction. Platio, in Timaeues, tells how the demiurge joins up the broken parts of the world-soul by means of two sutures like St. Andrew's cross. Bayley stresses the fire-symbolism of the cross, and explains that all the words for Cross have a common etymological basis in -ak, -ur, or -os, signfying 'light of the Great Fire' "

There is also another comment about the close relationship between the sword and cross, since both of them are wielded against the primordial monster.

Certainly some food for thought, especially when you consider the fire, the suffering, the desire to bring balance (I'll resist using the E-word) to the world, etc in the story.

In Astrology, there is mention of the Cosmic Cross, which is when two stars in opposition are matched by a third star, forming a T. The addition of a fourth star creates the Grand Cross which symbolizes confusion.

The goal of the tetragrammaton to keep society confused and afraid?

Or, it could just be a "twist", no pun intended, on the Christian Cross much like the swastika was sometimes referred to as a broken cross.

[TrustKill]

^^^hmmm, i have some reading to do, it seems.

-TrustKill-

[Xenia Onatopp- Bale]

Thanks for your thought-provoking ideas, Libby and
corinthian. I'll do my own research too.

[BlackDragon]

Well... here is some information that I collect...

"The Tetragrammaton (YHWH)is an important aspect of the Old Testament and can be discussed in many areas.
The covenantal name of God in the Hebrew Bible is written with the four consonants: Yodh He Waw He. This name is known as the Tetragrammaton (Greek for "the four letters"). Although the Tetragrammaton was pronounced freely at the time the Torah and Prophets were written, its holiness in Judaism is such that it is no longer pronounced, except under very rare circumstances.
Yod, He, Vau, He, the Ineffable Name (Jehovah) of the Hebrews. The four letters refer respectively to the four "elements", Fire, Water, Air, Earth, in the order named. This formula is of most universal aspect, as all things are necessarily comprehended in it; but its use in a magical ceremony is little understood. The climax of the formula is in one sense before even the formulation of the Yod. For the Yod is the most divine aspect of the Force.
The remaining letters are but a solidification of the same thing. It must be understood that we are here speaking of the whole ceremony considered as a unity, not merely of that formula in which "Yod" is the god invoked, "He" the Archangel, and so on. In order to understand the ceremony under this formula, we must take a more extended view of the functions of the four weapons than we have hitherto done."

"The first Tetragrammaton is the ever concealed one, the FATHER,--himself an emanation of the eternal light, thence not Ain-Soph. He is not the four-lettered Tetraktis, but the Square only, so to say, on a plane surface. It is the ideal geometrical figure formed of four imaginary lines, the abstract symbol of an abstract idea, or four "mathematical" lines enclosing a "mathematical" space--which is "equal to nothing enclosing."

There's lot of information related to this issue, even entire books and articles.
I think that the use of this items in the movie was completly intencional and done with a tremendous inteligence!

hugs 4 everyone

[TrustKill]

whoa... seems like we opened a can of worms in biblical proportions...

-TrustKill-

[BlackDragon]

yeah... maybe lol
it's an interesting issue though

[TrustKill]

oh its definitely interesting. nothing quite like revealing a whole new level of character depth like that.

-TrustKill-

[JenGe]

TrustKill said:

oh its definitely interesting. nothing quite like revealing a whole new level of character depth like that.

-TrustKill-

What amazes me is when people actually say this film is shallow. They have only bothered to look at the surface.

[TrustKill]

i would assume these people only say that because they are more accustomed to heavily commercialized films.

-if you go into a movie or book with that sort of mindset, no matter what it is, you can find things to complain about. if you go simply to be entertain and suspend your disbelief long enough to just enjoy yourself w/ no strings attached, it can open you up to whole worlds of possibilties.

-TrustKill-

[Libby]

TrustKill said:

i would assume these people only say that because they are more accustomed to heavily commercialized films.

-if you go into a movie or book with that sort of mindset, no matter what it is, you can find things to complain about. if you go simply to be entertain and suspend your disbelief long enough to just enjoy yourself w/ no strings attached, it can open you up to whole worlds of possibilties.

-TrustKill-

Absolutely, Trustkill. Critics etc seem to have a special gene that predisposes them to pigeon-hole every film they come across. They become so adept at it that they seem to think they need only see 5 mins and they 'know' what it's all about! They spend so much time comparing it to other films that they miss the message.

The problem with EQ is that because it's so different, it's hard to categorise. I know they want to classify it as a certain 'genre', but I don't believe any favours were done by the 'Matrix meets 1984' tag. The film stands in its own right and should be acclaimed as such. I know I've wandered off-topic, but I get really cross about this!

[Witcher Wolf]

JenGe said:

What amazes me is when people actually say this film is shallow. They have only bothered to look at the surface.

The same kind of people who drown in big lakes sadly, for real.

Oh look, it's not too deep.

*splosh*

*silence*

[JenGe]

ClericWolf said:

The same kind of people who drown in big lakes sadly, for real.

Oh look, it's not too deep.

*splosh*

*silence*

<ot> We've got one of those here...It's called Deep Creek (actual name...posted with signs!!). Every summer people drowned in it thinking they can wade. </ot>

[Witcher Wolf]

JenGe said:

<ot> We've got one of those here...It's called Deep Creek (actual name...posted with signs!!). Every summer people drowned in it thinking they can wade. </ot>

<ot> Now that's scary heh, people must not read signs either...Hey look a Sign that says, Danger High Voltage, do you think I should touch that exposed wire? <ot>

[Rymel]

wasn't the swastika based off of the uhh..manji symbol? from buddhism? i think i remember the manji symbol being the opposite of the swastika, and he chose it because it represented power, or at least that was what i was told...and i haven't read the tetragrammaton symbol thread yet, but the symbol looks like the german cross to me, and wasn't the movie supposed to have a bit of a neo-nazi flavor, only instead of aryans they wanted emotionless, 'liberated' citizens? a friend of mine that i saw the movie with that i can't remember if it was he or just his parents that almost went into a concentration camp, said flat out at the end of the movie "the whole thing feels nazi to me." he also said he got the idea from watching that it took place in germany, or at least near it. i dunno. feel free to flame me if i'm wrong...

and speaking of deep creeks...anybody ever heard the story of that blue hole or whatever in jersey, supposed home of the jersey devil? people say it's clear and deep blue, and really cold, but there's mixed reports of people either diving in and never resurfacing or jumping in and landing on their head...i dunno, urban legends are interesting ;D

[Libby]

Rymel said:

i dunno, urban legends are interesting ;D

Have you read the Darwin Awards? They have lots of them!

[Rymel]

oh those are even funnier! silly criminals...

[Libby]

I particularly like the one about the constipated elephant! ;D If anyone's interested- here's the link.

www.darwinawards.com/

[JenGe]

Rymel said:

... i haven't read the tetragrammaton symbol thread yet, but the symbol looks like the german cross to me, and wasn't the movie supposed to have a bit of a neo-nazi flavor, only instead of aryans they wanted emotionless, 'liberated' citizens? ...

Here is what Wimmer stated about the Nazi slant in the commentary...

"Anyway, back to that flag. I didn't want it to be a swastika. In fact, the symbol of the Tetragrammaton, which is the four Ts, it looked very great...right there on that injector...

...you see it there. It's simply geometric. And that was the way it was throughout the vast majority of the film and it was towards the end that I had that flag made. I only really saw it on the day and I saw it and said, "Oh, Christ!! It looks like a swastika." But I was stuck with it and had to go with it.

And so, that's how it ended up looking like that. It wasn't intentional. I wasn't trying to make this seem like Nazi Germany even though I shot a lot of the locations on Nazi Germany. - Kurt Wimmer

www.freewebs.com/equilibrium-movie/commentarya2.htm

[Rymel]

heh, oops...sorry jenge, i haven't seen the commentary yet since i've yet to buy the dvd.

[JenGe]

Rymel said:

heh, oops...sorry jenge, i haven't seen the commentary yet since i've yet to buy the dvd.

No worries...a lot of people have assumed the same as you. I kinda enjoy setting them straight. ;D

[Witcher Wolf]

Heh heh heh heh, I get the feeling you do Jen

[Rymel]

don't you think it's rather funny that for all the effort he put in trying to avoid a nazi feel he never noticed it looked like the german cross?

[JenGe]

Rymel said:

don't you think it's rather funny that for all the effort he put in trying to avoid a nazi feel he never noticed it looked like the german cross?

See I never really saw it that way at all. I always saw it as an old crusader cross. That also goes better with all the religious themes in the film then the Nazi cross would.

I think people only look at things superficially...myself included. As Wimmer mentions in the commentary we have vestigial things all around us all the time but have forgotten their origins. Kurt seems to be a person that actually has a lot of historical depth so he may not have picked up on only a one dimensional view of the Tetragrammaton symbol until he saw that flag.

He had this same problem with the use of the term "Father." Almost every comment I've seen about this automatically assumes its a reference to Big Brother in 1984 when in actually it isn't. In my hum. op., I think Wimmer gives his audience sometimes credit for being smarter then they truly seem to be.

[Rymel]

JenGe said:

See I never really saw it that way at all. I always saw it as an old crusader cross. That also goes better with all the religious themes in the film then the Nazi cross would.

hrm, i didn't think of the crusader cross either. but it does look like the german cross a lot, not really the swastika though, although i can see where they get the idea from. when i was referring to the german cross i wasn't inferring naziness, sorry if i seemed like it.


[quote author=JenGe
I think people only look at things superficially...myself included. As Wimmer mentions in the commentary we have vestigial things all around us all the time but have forgotten their origins. Kurt seems to be a person that actually has a lot of historical depth so he may not have picked up on only a one dimensional view of the Tetragrammaton symbol until he saw that flag.[/quote]

speaking of forgetting origins, i've been reading a book about things like that in ecosystems, and trying to recreate them. very interesting if you like that kind of stuff. and he does seem very knowledgable in things most people don't think about, and gives the viewers quite a bit to mull on. also, do you think that even if it WAS meant to be a neo-swastika, would that really matter in post-WWIII? i mean the people gave themselves wholly to father's cause, so i don't think they'd care much either way...

[quote author=JenGe
He had this same problem with the use of the term "Father." Almost every comment I've seen about this automatically assumes its a reference to Big Brother in 1984 when in actually it isn't. In my hum. op., I think Wimmer gives his audience sometimes credit for being smarter then they truly seem to be.[/quote]

i actually assumed father as in father of the city and everything concerning it. the big brother thing came up as a secondary assumption, since it's not that different. but i thought of it as father of libria, of the tetragrammaton, etc. i loved 1984 btw, and you can't help but think 1984 when you hear "palace of justice" ;D

i actually had a conversation with someone about how nobody ever wants to think when they see a movie anymore. people actually walked out of the theater during 28 Days Later because they thought it was boring. this was after the virus was explained before release and epidemic. i think the whole idea just went right over their heads...people nowadays go to a theater to be amused, not to be forced to think, which is a shame. i for one had a nice convo with my friends after the movie about the virus itself...

[JenGe]

Rymel said:

hrm, i didn't think of the crusader cross either. but it does look like the german cross a lot, ...

Here is an image for the Jerusalem Cross from the first Crusades...

also, do you think that even if it WAS meant to be a neo-swastika, would that really matter in post-WWIII? i mean the people gave themselves wholly to father's cause, so i don't think they'd care much either way...

That sounds as good as any theory

I usually shy away from plot interpretation that is not specifically supported in a film because the possibilities are endless (I think the gun swap is the only one :.