Are all Clerics sense offenders?

[Prestan]

Father feels. From that, one can presume that the entire tetagrammaton feels.

But do their clerics?

Was preston the only one not in on the whole scam? Was that why Dupont chose him? Do all clerics secretly not take their prozium, this being why they're so good at sensing emotion, and the fact that they're off their dose is sort of kept under wraps, like all the officials are hush hush about it? Perhaps this would explain why Preston was the best, becuz he was the only true cold hearted killer.

We know that Brandt was feeling, but its not clarified whether that was by choice or by a malfunction with his interval, a hinted at theory near the begininng of the film.

And for that matter ... what about sweepers? you never see them dose.

[Aedh]

You have broached what I consider to be the prime Librian 'conspiracy theory;' Libria's Roswell, Grassy Knoll, and Black Copters all rolled into one.

Like all the best conspiracy theories, it's plausible because it rests on the supposition that the 'real truth' rests on something you can't see because it's being intentionally concealed by someone. Therefore, everytime you don't see it--that's just more proof that it's being concealed. By these criteria, if Clerics are hiding the fact that they're not dosing, then two things make the theory plausible:

1. You do see Clerics with PIUs and Prozium.

2. You don't see Clerics USING PIUs and Prozium.

I have always been tempted to believe in this conspiracy theory, personally. Only the fact that I categorically refuse--as a matter of policy--to believe in ANY conspiracy theory keeps me from it.

[Witcher Wolf]

My theory is that only Father's inner circle, those who know him as DuPont and guard him in his opulence are actually off the dose themselves, otherwise they'd have thrown him into the Furnaces a long time ago.

The other clerics would be on the dose.

[reveria]

aedh said:

2. You don't see Clerics USING PIUs and Prozium.

yes we do. Preston doses in the car.

I'm with Wolf here - if all the Clerics were off the dose, there'd be BIG trouble. Preston pissed off is all I'm saying ;D

[katalina]

I totally agree with Witcher Wolf and reveria.

[Libby]

Well...as the Resident Conspiracy Theorist around here for the last four years , I tend to follow the 'just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you' idea. Just because we don't see Clerics other than Partridge and Preston dosing, it doesn't mean they don't. Of course it doesn't mean that they do either... As you say, Brandt talks about getting his interval adjusted...though that could be for Preston's benefit. (In the OS he talks about a weight loss as a reason for the adjustment) Other than Preston and Brandt we don't see any Clerics in action either, but we could assume they're out and about in Libria doing what Clerics do.

We must remember that Prozium does not inhibit all emotion, just the highs and lows. I wouldn't call Preston a cold-hearted killer... his heart is not involved... it's justified to maintain the 'great society' in which he believes and we do see him as the only one who truly does believe. 'Cold God of Death' is a chilling description, though.

Not all Clerics are good at 'sensing' emotion. Preston is a 'prodigy'...the term 'prodigal' is used incorrectly in the scene but the intended meaning's obvious...and Brandt claims to be like Preston, although conspiracy theory dictates he's already 'in' on the plot so he has 'inside' information. His by-admission ill-adjusted (or non-existent) dose lets him 'feel' more than he should. DuPont of course is totally off the dose...which seems to make such people prone to stroking things. Cleric...er...Witcher Wolf says in his article The Martial Solution:
The role of the Grammaton Cleric in Libria

Taking a drug that renders emotions worthless would hamper any kind of decision making process that involved the well-being of a world. So we know that DuPont and his inner Cleric elite circle are off the dose,

Could DuPont control all the other Clerics if they were also off the dose? Surely Preston would notice that! He doesn't see it in his closest family/friend because he can't understand anyone not believing totally in the system, but he'd spot it in others. I think he twigs Brandt straight away...but I think the rest would dose out of habit and training.

That does raise the question of levels of Prozium though; I kind of assumed that Clerics were very finely balanced to allow them to be utterly effective...hence Preston going 'cold turkey' so fast. Partridge dosed through choice because it would help him maintain the illusion when he was with Preston, but you can see the pain in his eyes in those first scenes, presumably because he wasn't dosing at any other time.

There may well be levels of dose for Sweepers etc and it the general run-of-the-mill citizen would have to be strictly controlled.

We don't see any other Council Members either...'the real Father died years ago' has always prompted me to wonder how 'natural' that death was and who DuPont had recruited by the time it happened.

Thing is, this film is made so sparingly that you could theorise 'til Daisy bangs on the door...that's another reason I love it so much.

[Aedh]

reveria said:

aedh said:

2. You don't see Clerics USING PIUs and Prozium.

yes we do. Preston doses in the car.

I'm with Wolf here - if all the Clerics were off the dose, there'd be BIG trouble. Preston pissed off is all I'm saying ;D

I agree with your latter point. With the former point, I'm playing devil's advocate. Yes, we do see Preston dosing, but this is in accordance with Prestan's original conspiracy theory that he's the only one who does.

And Libby's point that Prozium does not suppress all emotion is often forgotten. It is the highs and lows that it suppresses.

In fact, a person who is by nature well-grounded in philosophy and has a pragmatic, integrated view of life may be said to have, for all practical purposes, transcended the need for Prozium and could abandon his/her dose without anyone noticing. After all, if you never display highs and lows of emotion before anyone, who would know if you're off your dose or not?

(Yes, I'm thinking of myself here ... my ex-wife used to curse me. She was an expert in reading 'body language,' but it didn't work on me because I'm so socially maladjusted. 'You ******!! What does a person have to do to get you to show your real feelings??') But I'm also thinking of, say, Buddhist sages--which I am not--who through enlightenment may rise beyond concern with worldly things and view everything dispassionately.

This is the premise that my Victorian Cleric novel is working on ... social conditioning taking the place of Prozium.

[aikidoal]

On the supposition that Preston is the only cleric who doses...that can't be true. Why? It's doesn't make sense for the story. Wimmer's script was pointed towards the inherant f'd up-ness of a society which removes emotion. The entire Tetragrammton standing around all giggling (or going with Aedh's proposal of adopting Buddha-like poses or doing their best to imitate German Librarians [the folks with the books, not a typo]) while their star quarterback has to be dosed because he's so "sensitive" does not contribute to the core essense of the film. It's sort of a tangental embellishment which wouldn't survive any writer's internal Occam's Razor.

[Aedh]

aikidoal said:

On the supposition that Preston is the only cleric who doses...that can't be true. Why? It's doesn't make sense for the story. Wimmer's script was pointed towards the inherant f'd up-ness of a society which removes emotion. The entire Tetragrammton standing around all giggling (or going with Aedh's proposal of adopting Buddha-like poses or doing their best to imitate German Librarians [the folks with the books, not a typo]) while their star quarterback has to be dosed because he's so "sensitive" does not contribute to the core essense of the film. It's sort of a tangental embellishment which wouldn't survive any writer's internal Occam's Razor.

Well, you're right of course. And with that, my part in arguing for Prestan's conspiracy theory comes to its close. I'll punt it back to him, if he cares to run with it.

[Prestan]

aedh said:

aikidoal said:

On the supposition that Preston is the only cleric who doses...that can't be true. Why? It's doesn't make sense for the story. Wimmer's script was pointed towards the inherant f'd up-ness of a society which removes emotion. The entire Tetragrammton standing around all giggling (or going with Aedh's proposal of adopting Buddha-like poses or doing their best to imitate German Librarians [the folks with the books, not a typo]) while their star quarterback has to be dosed because he's so "sensitive" does not contribute to the core essense of the film. It's sort of a tangental embellishment which wouldn't survive any writer's internal Occam's Razor.

Well, you're right of course. And with that, my part in arguing for Prestan's conspiracy theory comes to its close. I'll punt it back to him, if he cares to run with it.

I stick with my gun(kata)s.
I never intended for this to be classified as a 'conspiracy theory,' in that I thought it was pointed out in the movie.

"Where to find such a man. A man with the capacity to feel who didn't yet know it."

This could be interpreted as: all other clerics feel and they are aware of said feelings, but they are happy with their position and authority so they just go on killing resistance and keep their mouths shut. Preston, too, had feelings, he just wasn't aware of it. Dupont discovered this when he found out that Preston wasn't the one who turned in his wife for sense offense, indicating that Preston loved his wife and subconsiously chose not to report her.

Dupont asks preston "how did you feel?" This could be dupont testing preston as to whether or not he's aware of his feelings, rather than dupont trying to nail preston and say "Aha! You do feel! Take em' away boys!" If Preston answered "I wasn't too happy about it sir." then dupont may have let him go, closed preston's profile, and moved on to try and find another cleric whose unware of their emotions.

For sure, I do believe that Dupont, at that point, knew Preston could feel, and wanted to see if Preston knew it, too. Whether or not he'd have preston incinerated, or free to go, is a mystery.

But keep in mind: A cleric's job is to know what you're thinking and, more importantly, if you feel. Eventually, i think you have to come to the conclusion that they must use their 'feelings' to do this, otherwise they become as robotic and unaware as the sheeple they control.

Your move Aedh =)

[Aedh]

clericjordan said:

I stick with my gun(kata)s.
I never intended for this to be classified as a 'conspiracy theory,' in that I thought it was pointed out in the movie.

I think, despite your intention, it qualifies as a conspiracy theory in the classic sense: the idea that there are a number of people in authority who all know something that the masses don't, and have a vested interest in keeping them from knowing it.

clericjordan said:

"Where to find such a man. A man with the capacity to feel who didn't yet know it."

This could be interpreted as: all other clerics feel and they are aware of said feelings, but they are happy with their position and authority so they just go on killing resistance and keep their mouths shut. Preston, too, had feelings, he just wasn't aware of it. Dupont discovered this when he found out that Preston wasn't the one who turned in his wife for sense offense, indicating that Preston loved his wife and subconsiously chose not to report her.

Dupont asks preston "how did you feel?" This could be dupont testing preston as to whether or not he's aware of his feelings, rather than dupont trying to nail preston and say "Aha! You do feel! Take em' away boys!" If Preston answered "I wasn't too happy about it sir." then dupont may have let him go, closed preston's profile, and moved on to try and find another cleric whose unware of their emotions.

For sure, I do believe that Dupont, at that point, knew Preston could feel, and wanted to see if Preston knew it, too. Whether or not he'd have preston incinerated, or free to go, is a mystery.

I think I agree with you here. As I would phrase it, it's a question asked the way women often ask questions--meant to open a topic--rather than the way men usually ask questions--to request a piece of data.

Given the context of the question, I think Dupont knew quite well that Preston wouldn't answer: "Oh, man, sir, I was bummed for days." In that sense, I think you're right that Dupont (who we all know could feel) was testing Preston.

It's worth repeating that nowhere is it stated that Prozium turns people into mind-numbed robots who can't feel. It has two effects, I think: an immediate physical effect, and also a social consequence.

The immediate physical effect, which has often been talked about before, is to dampen feeling without extinguishing it. You don't want people putting their hands on red-hot stoves, or stepping in front of moving trains, and people need a certain amount of feeling in order to refrain from doing that, without having to stand like so many Socrateses and engage in internal rationalisations about the human skin's temperature resistance capacity.

This being said, all Librians are constantly being reminded of the danger, not of sense, but of sense-OFFENCE. It's often said that in Libria, feeling is a crime. I think it would be more accurate to say that engaging in feeling for its own sake is what is really the crime. Clerics and Sweepers handle EC-10 all the time. It's not that they're not allowed to have any feelings about it. I think a certain amount of repulsion and aversion for it would even be approved of and encouraged. Why else would Father show video footage of past wars and dictators, if not to reinforce aversion to them? It's not so much that you can't have feelings, but that whatever feelings you DO have should be subordinate to the higher principles of peace and reason.

I think the point behind Prozium and the whole theory of sense-offence is that you're not supposed to engage in feeling as a recreation or pastime. You're not to indulge. It's like being a tester at a chocolate factory. It's possible to be able to sample chocolates and judge whether they pass for quality or not, without engaging in a delightful gustatory experience.

Librians sense this, but they are also people living under a sort of terror regime not unlike the Red Terror in Russia. During that time, people were allowed to discuss capitalism, and even to some extent to have. They just weren't allowed to engage in it or express any positive sentiments about it. However, through (often justifiable) fear of being accused, many people just withdrew from the topic altogether. This accounts, I think, for the zombie-like look of many Librians. Like masses everywhere, they want to be safe, so they take care to emphasize how 'good' they're being. If it's good not to show too much emotion, it's better still to show as little as possible.

clericjordan said:

But keep in mind: A cleric's job is to know what you're thinking and, more importantly, if you feel. Eventually, i think you have to come to the conclusion that they must use their 'feelings' to do this, otherwise they become as robotic and unaware as the sheeple they control.

This where we now return to Preston and Dupont. I think Dupont and Preston were both well aware of what I discussed above, and Preston certainly felt the need to show as little feeling as possible to Dupont, who, after all, he was trained to obey as a superior. In our society it's becoming increasingly hard for many people to really connect with the habit of ingrained obedience "while on duty." (As a military veteran, I can do this.) Preston was being a "good soldier" in front of Dupont, and Dupont was testing just HOW "good a soldier" Preston was. Because Dupont had it in mind to send him up in front of Jurgen ... to actually become a double agent ... but anyone who's studied espionage knows just how notoriously unreliable most double agents are. After all, someone who has the capacity to blandly betray your enemy also has the capacity to blandly betray YOU.

This is highlighted by the reference to Preston's children. Though this wasn't made explicit in the movie, the unmistakable reference is to what might happen to Preston's children if he were to 'turn' while being with the Resistance. This is classic when you recruit a double agent. You guarantee their behaviour by having their nearest and dearest handy as hostages.

However, none of what I've laid out here requires that Clerics and Sweepers be off the dose. I think what this really is, is a more nuanced version of what you have said. It's not that they're off the dose, so much as that they're living in a situation where they have some feeling--which is required for basic vital functioning--but that some of that feeling has to be devoted to the purpose of showing that they don't feel too much. How much is too much? Well, since everyone is subject to arrest and incineration, no one really knows how much is too much. That is exactly what a "terror" situation is. So everyone's survival instinct bubbles up through the Prozium fumes and tells them to be careful. That's the way I'd put it anyway. In fact, if I were Father, that alone would be the ultimate point of the Prozium programme: I wouldn't care about the exact extent to which emotion was suppressed in each individual, just so long as every individual remained afraid to engage in feeling for its own sake.

So my final answer to your question really is that, no not all Clerics are sense-offenders. But they all certainly take good care to avoid ground for accusation of being sense-offenders ... though one, Partridge, seems ultimately to tire of the whole game and allow himself to be caught, while two others, Brandt and Preston, decide to 'push the envelope,' with results that we see in the movie.

[Libby]

To Aedh...*claps*

Found myself nodding like one of those dogs on the parcel shelf of a car...

Hadn't thought before about the interplay between Preston and DuPont in terms of a veiled threat against his children...the whole 'Are you a family man?' DuPont had the file in front of him and knew it all anyway. I wonder if Preston had ever bothered to ask who did give up Viviana...DuPont could even have arranged that himself.

[Witcher Wolf]

*claps Aedh*

French mode on: Fucking brilliant my friend!

French mode off: What an excellent presentation.

[Aedh]

By the power vested in me I have also resurrected this thread for possible reading of interest by newer members.

[cleric84]

Thanks Aedh
I'm inclided to side with some of the pervious posts which state that the prozium dose for clerics and sweepers are leveled out specifically so they have enough 'feeling' for their line of work.
Perhaps their is some of selection process for certain clerics which Dupont see's fit to be in his top few. A type of faviouritism, if that makes sense? For example Brandt is quite clearly off the dose and seems to over friendly with Dupont...As we find out at the end of the movie. These top few are off the dose entirely and for were giving a purpose by dupont to 'recruit the next few' maybe Preston falls into this plan?

[Aedh]

Sept 15, 2011 18:33:10 GMT -5 cleric84 said:

Thanks Aedh
I'm inclided to side with some of the pervious posts which state that the prozium dose for clerics and sweepers are leveled out specifically so they have enough 'feeling' for their line of work.
Perhaps their is some of selection process for certain clerics which Dupont see's fit to be in his top few. A type of faviouritism, if that makes sense? For example Brandt is quite clearly off the dose and seems to over friendly with Dupont...As we find out at the end of the movie. These top few are off the dose entirely and for were giving a purpose by dupont to 'recruit the next few' maybe Preston falls into this plan?

Entirely possible!

[Aedh]

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