What is the origin of Libria's cross?

[clericjay]

I was last week in London, the capital of Great Britain.
Of course I visited many sights there. St. Pauls cathedral was one of them.
I was pretty surprised, because I've seen the cross of the librian flag in the crypt of the cathedral. It was on top of an huge grave stone. This one belongs to some old imperial British commander. But I actually forget who it was.

Now I'm asking myself the question, what the origin of librian cross is. Does someone of you know where it comes from or what inspired Kurt Wimmer to use this cross.

[Aedh]

Well personally I would venture the opinion that it's tied into "Tetragrammaton ..." which in Greek means "[that of] four words ..." The symbol of the Tetragrammaton is the "T" cross, and I'd say myself that the 'Librian cross' is four T's joined together at the ends of their stems; when displayed upright, this happens to be a medieval symbol called the "Cross Potent" or "Teutonic Cross." Tipping something on its side, anciently, suggests suffering. Heraldically, the Librian cross would be simply described as a sort of 'saltire [tipped cross], couped,' I suppose--but either way it goes back to four 'T' crosses together. Then you get into what the symbolism of the 'T' cross is ... but that's another department.

Now as to why Mr Wimmer would want to do that I'm not sure, apart from that cross having--as many have pointed out--a vague but definite resemblance to the Nazi swastika. The National Socialist regime that Mr Wimmer meant to suggest is widely reputed for its emotionless troopers ... on the other hand, its propaganda such as the Nuremberg rallies--embodied in the film Triumph Of The Will--were meant for quite different purposes than repressing emotion ... in fact, the NSDAP got where it was by the expert whipping-up of emotion--one need only cite how the Reichstag fire was used, for example. It's certainly up for discussion.

It is worthy of note that the Teutonic Knights whose cross Mr Wimmer chose to display tipped on its side on the Librian flag were Crusaders ... Crusaders whose special duty it was to be guardians of pilgrims who were laid-up at the Hospital in Acre (Palestine). It was in a later phase of the Order's existence that the Emperor Henry VI told them to get out of Germany, and go conquer Prussia and Lithuania, which they did in a series of wars of peculiar savagery ... leading to the complete extinction of the Old Prussian nation. The Order later decayed, and was essentially put out of business at last by Napoleon. However, a remnant does survive to this day as a voluntary administration devoted to running a Vienna hospital. Their webpage, which I recommend for more information on their Order, is here: www.imperialteutonicorder.com/

[clericjay]

Thank you very much for this information. I checked it and I think you're right.
A modern version of the Teutonic cross is the symbol of German army, the "Bundeswehr" today.
But this sign was used by the Prussian army too, who stood in the tradition of the Teutonic Knights and after it in the German "Kaiserreich", which was under the political and cultural control of Prussia.
But I've never made the connection between the Teutonic cross and the Librian cross, because I've knew the modern version of the cross only.

That mr. Wimmer used it to remember the viewer of the fascistic totalitarian regimes of Europe in 20th century is something I also thought of. Hitler used a red flag and a white circle with a simple sign in it, as well as Mussolini did. These are symbols, which are very easy to keep in mind.

But there is just one thing I still want to know, because this was a sign of German Knights. But why have I seen it on an British grave?

If someone has got an answer or wants to join the discussion, you are very welcome.

[Aedh]

clericjay said:

But there is just one thing I still want to know, because this was a sign of German Knights. But why have I seen it on an British grave?

Well, it was a sign that was adopted by the Teutonic Knights in 1190, but preexisted that date as a Crusader symbol .... it forms part of the insignia of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem, for example, adopted officially in 1162. Because it was a sign of Crusaders generally it was adopted by non-German Crusaders as well ... it appears in more than one coat of arms awarded originally by the King of England to a Crusader or scion of one, and it was a popular symbol in Spain, often adorning the sails of Spanish ships. It traces back to the Dark Ages, and was used in Lombardy as well as in Byzantine iconography centuries before the Crusades. Something like it has also been found in the Near East and India, and it is thought by some to be the basis for a certain Chinese character.

So although it is true that it became associated with German/Teutonic culture, it also existed independently. The same is certainly true of the Third Reich's swastika, which (as is well-known) was found in India and the Near East, Japan, in the ancient Americas--yes, and in Britain, too--well before its fateful association with Germany. Heraldically, in fact, some authorities classify the swastika as a "cross potent" along with the Teutonic cross and other variations.

Bottom line: some form of the "cross potent"--whether in the classic Teutonic Knights form, or swastika, or some other variation--appears to be found from time immemorial wherever the Sun was anciently considered to be an important deity. Such as, in fact, those regions just mentioned, as well as the Nordic/German homelands. (One cannot help thinking of all the German tourists who to this very day swamp Mediterranean beaches faithfully every summer!)

[clericjay]

Thank you very much for these interesting information.
I'm very interested in history, but I never thought about this connections of these crosses.
You can grow old, but you always learn something new. (OK, I'm not old )
Where did you learned this? I'm just interested in your sources.

I'm very impressed of your knowledge. For example, I've never heard "swastika" for "Hakenkreuz". (This could be caused by living in Germany and here we don't use "swastika" for this symbol.)
But I know that it is a old sign from India for luck and fortune. Until the Nazi's used it as a symbol it was often printed onto poker chips.
But Hitler changed the direction of the "ending strips".

I know it isn't very good, that I didn't knew these information about the Teutonic knights and their symbol, but I had some very bad history teachers, who never managed to teach us every thing we have to know. (For example I've never learned something about the crusaders in school. )

Thank you for teaching me! Please tell me where you learned these things.

Or if somebody else knows something more, please tell us.
You are very welcome to join the discussion/history lesson.

_{(I know we are loosing the original topic EQ, but it is just to interesting to me. But also closely related, cause of the librian cross.)}

[Aedh]

clericjay said:

Thank you very much for these interesting information [...] Where did you learned this? I'm just interested in your sources.

I have a professional education and career in the study of history, religion, and philosophy. (My postgraduate thesis was on Kierkegaard.) Some of it's from my own library ... some is trawled from the 'Net or from dedicated online resources. I usually don't assert anything as fact in a forum like this unless you can check it online yourself to confirm it.

I may add that if you were taught nothing about the Crusades, that is fairly typical within the last thirty years. That was an immensely complex and rich period of history, where much happened that was wonderful and awe-inspiring, as well as coarse, brutal, cynical, blatantly political, and just plain evil. For while the mandarins of political correctness tried to teach only the latter part .... bad white male patriarchal religious fanatics against that noble Arab Saladin and his Muslim resistance fighters, but that didn't play out well--Palestine has plenty of home-made fratricide to show with little or no European invasion going on--and Saladin wasn't an Arab but a Kurd from Iraq. So now they just ignore it with a few passing comments about moral equivalence. I'm not sure how they do it in Germany, but if you were an American, you'd have been lucky to have three weeks on the Middle Ages in school.

[clericjay]

Wow!
I'm really deeply impressed! It is a pleasure to know you now. I'm very happy that I finally found someone, who is such an expert like you are. ;D

I never heard something about Kierkegaard before. Now I red something about him and I think he is the first philosopher, I can totally agree with. (... if I understood everything correct.) I was educated in a protestantic way and I really do believe in God and Jesus.
Do you? Of course, you studied religion and philosophy. ( But you can't say anything in general in our times. )

Hmm... The history lessons in primary school are not worth talking about, but I will tell you to give you just an overview. (hopefully You aren't bored )
In fifth class we managed stone age until Egyptians.
After that I changed school and in 6th class we learned something about the fall of Roman Empire. This was caused by to less lessons in the year and very bad history teachers.
In grammar school everything became better.
We learned everything from Reformation to 2nd World War in line. That was from class 7 up to 10.
From class 11 on everything became better, because I choose history advanced course and I get a very good teacher. (_{My history lessons are the best thing about school right now. Informative and interesting, it is a matter of teacher. Really.)}
But we just learn everything from Reformation up to 1st World War in detail, because this is important for our a-level examination.

You see: I never learned something about crusaders in school.
I studied something about the ancient times and a bit about the medieval from books and the internet by myself.

History isn't very important for the ministry of education of Germany. Languages and Science are more important for them. That's not good I think, because many young Germans don't know much about the history of their own country.

_{By the way: I learned something about the life in the GDR by my parents, because, they lived in it.}

I hope I didn't bored you to much. I would be very glad, if you would teach me something about the crusaders and their time. And would you please give me some good links to websites, where I can read something about it?
This would be very kind.

And before I forget: The thing with the "political correctness" and the picture about the bad Christian crusaders, conquering Palestine without a proper reason that is drawn in modern society. I think that's the same like the war between Israel and the Arabic world today. _{(We learned many things about Jewish history and Israel in our history lessons in the second half of class 11, because our teacher believes, that it is a topic that every student should know more about, because the media shows the whole conflict in a wrong light.)}

[Aedh]

If you like we can carry on talking history by PM so we don't impinge on JenGe's limited space here.

[clericjay]

Okay! I agree!

But then nobody will post here.

[Aedh]

Well that happens, Jay ... but nobody's posting here already. Anyway, most threads live only for a few replies and then pass on to the meet the destiny of all posts. Some garner no replies at all. You have to admit that we are straying from the common ground of EQ and Libria, and there are only two of us; a situation eminently suitable for correspondence by PM, especially as we may digress into politics and religion--two subjects about which I prefer not to carry on open discussions on the boards.

[clericjay]

It's very sad but true! Bye thread!

But it was worthy for me already, because I really learned something here!
;D

_{(But I think that EQ is a social, not only a science fiction and that leads us to politics. You're right that there is no reason to talk about religion.)}

[aikidoal]

You could continue philosophical discussion on the Nethers board. That's where off-topic discussions go. It's not just for the "what color do you feel like today?" threads.

[clericjay]

Thank you for posting, aikidoal.

So I will continue the topic at Nethers Pub. You will find it under the name:

"History and Philosophy discussion thread"

Everybody is very welcome to post there and to discuss with us some historic or philosophic topics.
Whoever has got some questions or ideas for this topic should feel free and take a look at it.

I'm looking forward to meet you over there, in the Nethers.