Can Kurt Wimmer make a PREQUEL to Equilibrium?

[invisiblescientist]

While I agree that it might be difficult to make a Sequel to Equilibrium only a few years after this movie received unfairly bad reviews, it might still be very possible for Kurt Wimmer to make a PREQUEL to the movie.

In the PREQUEL movie, it is possible to show how Father came to power after WW III devastated most of the world, how Libria was constructed, how their technology evolved, how prozium was invented, a lot more details about the Nethers, more details about the walls of the City State Libria (the robust and thick walls of the city were from an East German Soviet-built military base.)

In the Prequel movie, it would be shown that initially Libria is really built by good people with noble ideals for compassion and spirituality, but gradually increasingly power-hungry people start taking over the TetraGrammaton spiritual movement, and gradually TetraGrammaton is transformed into an oppressive Fascist system where inner freedom is gradually taken away from people.


This can be a much greater budget movie, with a lot more attention to details, and of course, Sean Bean and Christian Bale would have the same roles, and a lot more details are given about the resistance, the previous failed assassination attempts on the Father that led him to seclusion.

If this PREQUEL is successful, then it will finally be possible for Kurt Wimmer to start a remake of the Equilibrium movie, with much greater attention to detail.

[invisiblescientist]

Aug 25, 2009 8:38:25 GMT -5 Mirabilis said:

Perhaps you should check out our German colleague ClericJay's fiction "Memories of Father" on the EC-10 thread. The idea of a prequel always did appeal to me.

Thank you for bringing to my attention the EC-10 category where the impressive thread "Memories of Father" is located.

In the future, I hope to write a more detailed story for the Prequel to Equilibrium, and in that case I would post it in the EC-10 category.

In the Prequel movie, the first 30 % of the film would be about the WW III itself, how the war started, how it escalated with totally unpredictable miscalculations and misunderstandings, and emotional distorted thinking from the part of politicians and military leaders, and also from nations who misperceive with a lot of emotions. The next 30 % of the movie would be the creation of Libria and its new TetraGrammaton government, and the final 40 % would be the way the system once again gets corrupted in the end, with the clerics Preston and Partridge being trained at the Monastery.

If we can write a good story for the Prequel to Equilibrium, then perhaps ultimately this might become a successful movie. Again, the reason I was talking about a Prequel to Equilibrium was because if the Prequel is successful, it will then be possible to create a remake of the original movie, with a lot more attention to detail, to make justice to the original Equilibrium movie.

[Aedh]

I have seen several prequels to EQ posted here ... among which "Memories of Father" is one. Many of them have in common that they start in the aftermath of World War III, or at the time of the foundation of Libria ... and move to the time of the movie.

I am working on two fictions right now; one is "The Aion Engine," which deals with the time from World War III up to the time of the movie. But I have long been nagged by the question, How did we get from NOW up until the time when the WWIII/Foundation of Libria starts? That is what my longer fiction, "Nonstop Murder & Lust" is dealing with. The two are loosely tied together.

It's all good ... no one has the 'official' story, so we are all free to spin our own versions. All have good ideas.

[invisiblescientist]

Aug 25, 2009 13:21:34 GMT -5 Aedh said:

I have seen several prequels to EQ posted here ... among which "Memories of Father" is one. Many of them have in common that they start in the aftermath of World War III, or at the time of the foundation of Libria ... and move to the time of the movie.

I am working on two fictions right now; one is "The Aion Engine," which deals with the time from World War III up to the time of the movie. But I have long been nagged by the question, How did we get from NOW up until the time when the WWIII/Foundation of Libria starts? That is what my longer fiction, "Nonstop Murder & Lust" is dealing with. The two are loosely tied together.

It's all good ... no one has the 'official' story, so we are all free to spin our own versions. All have good ideas.

Good luck with your projects connected with a possible Prequel to Equilibrium.

But ultimately if we can write a good Prequel that impresses the director of Equilibrium, then perhaps ultimately this Prequel movie will be made. The version of the Prequel I have in mind would allocate a lot of time and detail to the unexpected economic and political events that led to WW III between 2020-2025. I will put special emphasis on the psychological state of the nations (and their leaders) that blindly cooperate with the escalation of world events that lead to WW III, showing the justification for TetraGrammaton as a spiritual universal brotherhood. Since many members of my family suffered due to Fascism during (and before) WW II, I believe that I can write a good depiction of the events that led to WW III as the continuation of WW I and WW II, and the Opium War. We start with the Crusaders who are on their way to Jerusalem, who loot and destroy Christian Greek villages in Turkey (since these red necks were too stupid to understand that people who don't speak French can possibly be Christians), then we gradually show that long before WW II, there were BRITISH concentration camps in South Africa where both the Blacks and the Boers were imprisoned. (A Nazi leader (really true) visited South Africa before WW II and wrote in his memoirs "Even though the white race is superior, why are the British so cruel to the Blacks?"). The WW I started in a very unexpected way, but the foundations of WW I were already being created by England, Germany and Russia with all the necessary infrastructure long before. And as continuation of the same cruelty, the WW III gradually escalates after the economic frustrations cause tension between the nations of the world. In this movie we show how the Great Depression led to WW II, and how the same thing is leading to WW III.

While the political and economic events leading to WW III are shown between 2000 and 2025, at the same time in this prequel movie it is also shown that the materialistic parents of Father forced him to go to prestigious schools with a lot of jealousy in his childhood, how his own attempts to get away from the narcissism of his family were futile in the end, since once he gained power at TetraGrammaton, Father saw that many colleagues who helped him establish this system, were more spiritual than him, and he became jealous due to his own narcissism he was trying to rebel against, and he started liquidating other colleagues who were better than him, and finally surrendered to the narcissism of his parents he was trying to get away from.

[Aedh]

Aug 25, 2009 20:45:30 GMT -5 invisiblescientist said:

The version of the Prequel I have in mind would allocate a lot of time and detail to the unexpected economic and political events that led to WW III between 2020-2025. I will put special emphasis on the psychological state of the nations (and their leaders) that blindly cooperate with the escalation of world events that lead to WW III, showing the justification for TetraGrammaton as a spiritual universal brotherhood.

You have nicely recapitulated "Nonstop Murder & Lust's" aim; though it takes place in AD 2116 it covers history back to about 2000. Although it does not take place on the 'macro' level taking in whole nations and national leaders, but depicts one small area, from which the reader is expected to think and draw out thoughts about te rest of the world during that time.

"The Aion Engine" takes place later, around 2250 or so, but it covers history back to about 2050.

[clericjay]

It's really a pity that I actually don't have the time to write something about it soon, though it's a very interesting topic and I'd like to come back to it later...

[Prestan]

so perhaps a prequel trilogy? (like star wars, except NOT crappy)

- Lead to WWIII (Perhaps conspired by Father? Dun dun dun!)
- WWIII (Including the early works of Libria and birth of the Cleric.)
- Aftermath of WWIII (Rise of Father, story of Preston/Partridge in training.)

[Aedh]

Aug 27, 2009 0:45:46 GMT -5 Prestan said:

so perhaps a prequel trilogy? (like star wars, except NOT crappy)

- Lead to WWIII (Perhaps conspired by Father? Dun dun dun!)
- WWIII (Including the early works of Libria and birth of the Cleric.)
- Aftermath of WWIII (Rise of Father, story of Preston/Partridge in training.)

My own scheme does this:

1. "Nonstop Murder & Lust:" 2000-2116; WWIII and its causes and aftermath ... civilisation as we know it is badly wounded but we are not yet to the Catastrophe. No direct tie to EQ, but merely explores a world in which a possible future points toward something like Libria. Fears of environmental, health, and terrorist hazards and financial insecurity grip whole populations, and government assumes more and more responsibility for personal safety and security; people's ability to decide anything more profound than what movie to watch or which certified healthy entree to have for dinner deteriorates. Society turns into a collection of people either in government or big business dependent on government; those on public assistance or make-work jobs; and outcasts and criminals.

2. "The Aion Engine:" past parts which cover 2122-2217, including the Catastrophe of 2122, which is not "WWIII" as most EQ fans might think of the precipitating disaster that wiped out civilisation. It merely gave it its death-blow. Early Works and birth of the Cleric fall here. Father's revelation of his truth, his first lonely struggles, the Journey by which he and his followers came to forge their creed and code, and the process by which they assumed control of a city to found a new State in 2176, and how it prospered.

3. EQ The Movie, which I conceive of as being set in or around 2217.

4. "Roses For Maria," which takes place twenty years or so after the movie.

5. The 'present-time' parts of "The Aion Engine" which are set about five years after "Roses." Beyond this I have no plans to go.

The whole scheme is designed to cover the fall of civilisation as we know it; the rise of Libria, as being a last gasp of the same; and the fall of Libria as well, and showing the road toward devolution, in which our species once again becomes hunter-gatherers.

[invisiblescientist]

Aug 27, 2009 9:09:31 GMT -5 Aedh said:

Aug 27, 2009 0:45:46 GMT -5 Prestan said:

so perhaps a prequel trilogy? (like star wars, except NOT crappy)

The whole scheme is designed to cover the fall of civilisation as we know it; the rise of Libria, as being a last gasp of the same; and the fall of Libria as well, and showing the road toward devolution, in which our species once again becomes hunter-gatherers.

Good ideas.

My point was that if the Equilibrium fans can collectively write a very convincing and
well thought film script to resurrect the ideas in the Equilibrium movie, and if we
then send it to Kurt Wimmer, he might be able to amass the funds to do at least the
Sequel that shows the events leading to WW III and the rise of Libria.

After all, note that the original Equilibrium movie did not lose money despite the bad
reviews. The bad reviews were due to the occasional weaknesses the critics attacked
(such as the similarity with Fahrenheit 451 Mona Lisa painting), and many critics did
agree that the ideas in the movie were good.

If we want to resurrect the Equilibrium movie, then clearly we have to start with the
Sequel first, since the origijal Equilibrium movie that was badly damaged by the critics.

In any case, the current world events already represent good material for the Sequel about the events that led to WW III, as the Great Depression after 1929 led to WW II, and there are similar events now.

Thus, I think that we have a small group of dedicated science fiction followers in this discussion group, and within a year we might be able to write at least the Sequel part of the movie, and send this report to Kurt Wimmer, to encourage him to do the Sequel. In fact, we can send several alternative scenarios about how WW III was triggered during the first half of the 21st century, and how Libria was founded. Now that Wimmer has a lot more experience in making films, this time he might do a very good job if he gets the funds. Note that if we can write a good explanation about how the Great Depression was similar to the current events in the world, and how this caused WW III in the same way similar to WW II, this can attract a large audience, since a lot of people are concerned about the economic collapse.

[Aedh]

Excellent. By my Evil Genius In Residence authority, I nominate you to be point man for the project.

[invisiblescientist]

Aug 27, 2009 23:02:55 GMT -5 Aedh said:

Excellent. By my Evil Genius In Residence authority, I nominate you to be point man for the project.

OK, I can be the organizer in this project.

Since you have already invested a lot of time in this project, you should have an important leading contribution, but as I said, we can create several versions of the story and present it to Kurt Wimmer. So far let us focus on the Prequel which has the best chance of becoming a movie.

However, it is important to write brief but also comprehensive summaries of the plot for each version of the story, so that both the members of this forum can quickly understand the story, and also for Kurt Wimmer to be able to pinpoint the pros and cons of each version quickly, without having to read the whole thing. It is important to write a summary with just a few pages so that Kurt Wimmer can have the patience to read it. If it is well written and really convincing, it is very possible that the Sequel can be made, since the public mood is currently probably ready for such a film (Prequel about the WW III and an alternative civilization to reduce suffering... Note that the 2012 movie is being made precisely because the audience in the world is pessimistic about the future.)

So far let us first focus on the Prequel movie initially: As I mentioned, I feel qualified to write at least one version of the economic and cultural events that lead to WW III, and how the WW III would be fought, and then you can gradually take over for the creation of Libria, although we will all contribute to each other's works.

I suggest that the Prequel should be like a 2 1/2 hour long movie, hopefully 3 hours long, so that at least 1/2 to 2/3 of the movie is about the events leading to WW III and how WW III is fought. Having studied the Great Depression and some of the events preceding WW II to some extent, I believe that I can write a convincing story to show the recurring long term economic cycles that bring the worst (emotions!) out of every nation... Then WW III is fought in totally unexpected ways, as science is used malevolently by civilized nations, most of the civilization is destroyed by various weapons.

[Aedh]

In the case of "Nonstop Murder & Lust," the key events, from a world-historical level, are drawn from current history up to the present day. Following the time as I write these words now, a plague of sterility and suicide sweeps the world (mostly the West, but the rest also) due to a combination of rampant, unchecked veneral disease, and people's own economic and lifestyle choices.

Europe declines in power, and parties of Asian and/or Islamic orientation assume more and more voice in European countries' affairs, one after the other. The United States also weakens, due to crushing Government financial obligations which raise taxes and cause business emigration, and eventually the US, Canada, and Mexico create a sort of loose federation called the North American Entity. More and more laws get passed and fewer and fewer people pay any attention to them--even the politicians who pass them stop reading them.

With all this happening, the Middle East erupts in war between Shiite forces and their allies on one hand, and an odd coalition of Israel with Sunni powers on the other. Nuclear weapons are deployed, and the US leads a coalition of forces into the area of Iran. Troubles erupt between India and Pakistan, which has been taken over by a radical Islamic party, and China takes an aggressive stance to protect its Central Asian interests.

The whole world doesn't get nuked, but there are a series of bloody, nasty combats starting about 2017 and going on sporadically for another forty years. (This is what I call "World War III.") Eventually, North America simply tires and closes in on itself, its population shrunken, large areas becoming more and more vacant, and its economy devolves. Legitimate business is taxed to death unless it becomes essentially part of Government, so most business is illegitimate, and a weakened Federal government, tied up in legal and financial troubles, is forced to allow most affairs to take place at the State level or at the transnational level.

That is the general setting ... I offer it to you for inspection and consideration as you plan. Please note that I don't put a partisan slant on any of this; I'm not cheering any side or booing any other. It's just what I see happening. Most of it's already started if the news can be even half-trusted.

[invisiblescientist]

Aug 28, 2009 9:01:26 GMT -5 Aedh said:

In the case of "Nonstop Murder & Lust," the key events, from a world-historical level, are drawn from current history up to the present day. Following the time as I write these words now, a plague of sterility and suicide sweeps the world (mostly the West, but the rest also) due to a combination of rampant, unchecked veneral disease, and people's own economic and lifestyle choices.

Europe declines in power, and parties of Asian and/or Islamic orientation assume more and more voice in European countries' affairs, one after the other. The United States also weakens, due to crushing Government financial obligations which raise taxes and cause business emigration, and eventually the US, Canada, and Mexico create a sort of loose federation called the North American Entity. More and more laws get passed and fewer and fewer people pay any attention to them--even the politicians who pass them stop reading them.

With all this happening, the Middle East erupts in war between Shiite forces and their allies on one hand, and an odd coalition of Israel with Sunni powers on the other. Nuclear weapons are deployed, and the US leads a coalition of forces into the area of Iran. Troubles erupt between India and Pakistan, which has been taken over by a radical Islamic party, and China takes an aggressive stance to protect its Central Asian interests.

The whole world doesn't get nuked, but there are a series of bloody, nasty combats starting about 2017 and going on sporadically for another forty years. (This is what I call "World War III.") Eventually, North America simply tires and closes in on itself, its population shrunken, large areas becoming more and more vacant, and its economy devolves. Legitimate business is taxed to death unless it becomes essentially part of Government, so most business is illegitimate, and a weakened Federal government, tied up in legal and financial troubles, is forced to allow most affairs to take place at the State level or at the transnational level.

That is the general setting ... I offer it to you for inspection and consideration as you plan. Please note that I don't put a partisan slant on any of this; I'm not cheering any side or booing any other. It's just what I see happening. Most of it's already started if the news can be even half-trusted.

OK, please write a two or three (or four) page long summary of your Prequel, to get started.

Meanwhile, as I said, I can make a contribution for the scenarios of WW III, about the political and economic events that will be realistic and based on historical facts. In any case, I must emphasize that whaterver scenario we write for WW III, we must put this within the context of human emotions, egos, etc, that cause the WW III to escalate in the least expected manner. The latter aspect, will be the essence of TetraGrammaton movement which will initially be a small group of people before WW III, and gradually this group will gain popularity as the war escalates. And in my scenario, destruction and cruelty is truly atrocious.)

[Aedh]

In my scenario, which as Point Man you are free to rework, the original Tetragrammaton disciples were not around during "World War III," as Father was not born yet. His great-grandfathers might have been in it; the combat had been over long enough to have nearly vanished from living memory. (Think about the distance between WW II and now.) World War III destroyed the fibre and moral sense of humanity, but it did not destroy all infrastructure and technology. Those were left around, to decay and become more and more mystifying and misunderstood. Destruction of them took place in the Catastrophe of 2122.

That is why in "Roses For Maria" and "The Aion Engine" you will see the occasional reference to 'pre-Cat' and 'post-Cat,' not 'prewar' and 'postwar.' Enough time had to elapse (imho) for people to forget what civilisation as we know it had really been all about. The War destroyed minds and spirits, and it took three generations for any memory of civilised standards to be discarded and forgotten. Then came the physical destruction, but only late enough so that people no longer had the education, the knowledge, or even the desire to rebuild. It was up to Father and his historical studies to rediscover civilisation--or what he thought civilisation was, at any rate. No one knew enough to gainsay him. Father often talked about the Cat, calling it "the War," but even in his intelligent mind, ideas and associations between the two were mixed up a bit.

The Catastrophe was in fact not a war; it was over in a day, before any armies could be mobilised; and after it there was precious little left to mobilise. It happened about sixty years after the cessation of open hostilities of WWIII, and Father was born about ten years after the Cat, in the harsh conditions that then prevailed. So for Father, the Cat was something his parents and older people remembered, but not the War, except only the very last stages, and then only in the minds of a few hoary ancients in their eighties or nineties.

It was in 2155 that Father received his revelation, and only after a year or three was he able to gain any disciples. It was on the Journey between about 2160 and 2176 that the Tetragrammaton Society took a recogniseable shape.

[invisiblescientist]

Aug 31, 2009 15:08:35 GMT -5 Aedh said:

In my scenario, which as Point Man you are free to rework, the original Tetragrammaton disciples were not around during "World War III," as Father was not born yet. His great-grandfathers might have been in it; the combat had been over long enough to have nearly vanished from living memory. (Think about the distance between WW II and now.) World War III destroyed the fibre and moral sense of humanity, but it did not destroy all infrastructure and technology. Those were left around, to decay and become more and more mystifying and misunderstood. Destruction of them took place in the Catastrophe of 2122.

That is why in "Roses For Maria" and "The Aion Engine" you will see the occasional reference to 'pre-Cat' and 'post-Cat,' not 'prewar' and 'postwar.' Enough time had to elapse (imho) for people to forget what civilisation as we know it had really been all about. The War destroyed minds and spirits, and it took three generations for any memory of civilised standards to be discarded and forgotten. Then came the physical destruction, but only late enough so that people no longer had the education, the knowledge, or even the desire to rebuild. It was up to Father and his historical studies to rediscover civilisation--or what he thought civilisation was, at any rate. No one knew enough to gainsay him. Father often talked about the Cat, calling it "the War," but even in his intelligent mind, ideas and associations between the two were mixed up a bit.

The Catastrophe was in fact not a war; it was over in a day, before any armies could be mobilised; and after it there was precious little left to mobilise. It happened about sixty years after the cessation of open hostilities of WWIII, and Father was born about ten years after the Cat, in the harsh conditions that then prevailed. So for Father, the Cat was something his parents and older people remembered, but not the War, except only the very last stages, and then only in the minds of a few hoary ancients in their eighties or nineties.

It was in 2155 that Father received his revelation, and only after a year or three was he able to gain any disciples. It was on the Journey between about 2160 and 2176 that the Tetragrammaton Society took a recogniseable shape.

OK, but please note that the original Equilibrium movie is happening in 2072:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(film)

www.indopedia.org/Equilibrium_(2002_movie).html

Also, we need to make sure there is continuity: At the beginning of the Equilibrium movie, it is said that Tetragrammaton was established as a reaction to the destruction in WW III, which was supposed to have occurred in the early years of the 21st century.

Thus in my version, the WW III occurs in 2025 due to the vicious economic competition (which starts as a result of the Grand Depression of 2010-2020), and the accelerated race to obtain natural resources between the superpowers (US, China, Japan, EU, and Russia). Greed and intolerance becomes the norm as a result of the frustrations, and finally the WW III escalates beyond imagination, as one miscalculation (caused by negative emotions) leads to another. Finally the brutality surpasses WW II, and the world is very badly damaged. By 2040 the surviving elite retreats to Central Europe, and gradually builds the City State of Libria for 10 million carefully selected inhabitants from EU, Russia, the US, and also Asia. Raw materials are brought in from the Nethers, which is by definition the rest of the world. Russia, China and the US are very badly damaged.


Thus in 2072, when the original Equilibrium movie is happening, John Preston is 32 years old, and although he has not witnessed WW III, he remembers the desperate struggle for survival and the founding of Libria. Recall that Preston said to Partridge in the white Cadillac Seville "Every time we return to the city from the Nethers, it reminds me why we do what we do."

[Aedh]

Sure ... though I don't know who wrote the Indopedia article, I grant you, their date could be as right as anyone else's. And I freely confess to an Evil Genius propensity for playing fast and loose with original source materiels. I'm just throwing out ideas. Although I did make the point that the Catastrophe--in my version--is also called "World War III" even though it wasn't a 'proper' war. (Whatever that may be.) People get confused over time ... memories are lost and twisted. If there's a big FLASH in the sky and everything burns up, it must be a hostile attack from our enemies ... right? Well, maybe.

Now, what is about to follow is not argument, but just more thinking on my part, to do with my own project, which is going ahead anyway. I share it with you because I care ... because I think sharing thoughts is important.

The reason I wrote my version the way I did is that civilisation has surprising resilence. No less intelligent a man than Hermann Hesse expected World War I to drag on for decades, destroying civilisation, and many other people expected the same of World War II (which did in fact follow a decade-long world economic depression).

Yet history holds surprises. Japan was (and so far IS) the only nation to suffer nuclear attack during a wartime from a declared enemy, wiping out two of its major cities. Yet who would think that just a few years later, Japan and the USA, which launched the attack, would be firm allies and friendly nations? Who would have thought that war-ravaged Western Europe would be rebuilt so quickly into an economic powerhouse? (I grant you, Eastern Europe took longer.)

It is because, although civilisation suffered grievous wounds, they were not fatal. It turned out that there was a lot of strength under the wounds, and proper policies helped heal things quicker than many had anticipated. As in Britain under the Blitz, people had suffered, and suffered terribly, but they had not broken. I sketched out my version the way I did because the underlying strengths have to rot away before people can be convinced that legislating away and then medicating away emotion is the one solution to humanity's problems. That is awfully radical you know.

All that having been said, I'll be happy to work with you as time and energy allow. You can direct the project, set the timeframe, etc ... though you'll have to put up with my wandering ruminations.

[invisiblescientist]

Aug 31, 2009 17:58:27 GMT -5 Aedh said:

The reason I wrote my version the way I did is that civilisation has surprising resilence. No less intelligent a man than Hermann Hesse expected World War I to drag on for decades, destroying civilisation, and many other people expected the same of World War II (which did in fact follow a decade-long world economic depression).

Yet history holds surprises. Japan was (and so far IS) the only nation to suffer nuclear attack during a wartime from a declared enemy, wiping out two of its major cities. Yet who would think that just a few years later, Japan and the USA, which launched the attack, would be firm allies and friendly nations? Who would have thought that war-ravaged Western Europe would be rebuilt so quickly into an economic powerhouse? (I grant you, Eastern Europe took longer.)
I sketched out my version the way I did because the underlying strengths have to rot away before people can be convinced that legislating away and then medicating away emotion is the one solution to humanity's problems. That is awfully radical you know.

All that having been said, I'll be happy to work with you as time and energy allow. You can direct the project, set the timeframe, etc ... though you'll have to put up with my wandering ruminations.

First of all Hermann Hesse was partially correct that WW I would last for a long time, because WW II can be viewed as the continuation of WW I. For instance, by 1939, Germany was already dramatically recovering: by 1939, Germany already attained full employment, and their science and technology was the most advanced in the world. The only trouble in Germany (and Italy) was that England and France had already colonized all the raw materials producing places like Africa, Asia and Australia, and the growing (to be more exact skyrocketing) German industry desperately needed more resources. Thus Hitler had no choice but to adapt to the thinking of German industrialists and his advisers to expand, and in particular to attack Russia in order to take its natural resources. Hitler promised a Volkswagen car to each German family, which would have required immense amounts of oil at the time, and there was only one way to get that oil: Fight England and France to take away these natural resources from these colonies.

Now Back to the Future: Similarly new emerging industrial giants in Asia are currently developing even faster than Germany was growing in 1939, and they will soon be desperate for raw materials. The current economic depression will make it even more competitive, and the resulting suffering will make nations ruthless like before 1939.

Thus Hermann Hesse was right, but also the other German psychologist Fritz Perls was also partially right, as he wrote in his book "Ego, Hunger and Agression", where unconscious hungers accumulate in the psyche, and even after food has been hoarded, the same aggressive momentum often remains as negative emotions, and unconscious aggression continues as part of the hidden hungers that became emotional, even after prosperity has been achieved.

Anyway, as cruel as the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagazaki were, the destruction of just two small cities by relatively small nuclear weapons, was not a big event in comparison to the actual possibility of total nuclear war between nations. Thus, my point is that if the WW III escalates due to a miscalculation that one side can win the war by disabling the retaliatory capability of the rival nations (which is becoming a reality with the new science), then., if the destruction is so immense, it is guaranteed that suddenly this much suffering can and will make the survivors accept Prozium as a sacred gift to prevent any future war in the future.

With the help of the United States, Germany was quickly rebuilt after WW II, but had the destruction been global and nearly total, it would have been a different story. Right now, the world is more and more dependent in resources that are taxed to the limit. The population in the world is much larger, and the rate of consumption depends on the infrastructure. The US was an oil exporting country after WW II, but right now nearly 70 % of the oil is imported into the US. If the electric and water infrastructure of the US is disrupted, which is what will happen in a nuclear war, at least 50 % the US population of 300 million will die from hunger and disease within a year, and this is without counting the actual effect of several hundreds of nukes (if not thousands) exploding on most cities, each nuke being more than 500 to 1000 times more powerful than Hiroshima. This means that the combined destruction in a total nuclear war (both the bombs directly and famine and disease after the infrastructure is damaged) would not only kill at least 80 % of the people in the US, but the survivors would have little resources and knowledge to organize to rebuild civilization, which was a different situation in Germany, where the German universities were still intacts and engineers were still alive, and in communication with their American colleagues who were helping them. The same story in Europe. The Cold War was wonderful because both Russians and Americans had equally powerful weapons, and they both sides understood the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) proposed by John von Neumann, and so not one drunk Soviet or American soldier fired a bullet at each other, since both sides took every precaution to prevent a war. But if the new science changes the equation and if one side miscalculates in the future that it is possible to disable the retaliatory capability of the rival nations, then there will be war. And if the perception of the nations in the world changes and becomes such that rival nations will show no mercy if they win the war, then the war will be to the death. Before Germany attacked Russia, Joseph Goebbels manipulatively showed films of Russian Bolsheviks executing the middle class, and this was significant because after WW I, within Germany, there was a Bavarian secessionist Bolshevik German party, which was a state within the state, and German Bolsheviks were already brutalizing the middle class (in Germany, not just Russia). Armed with this propaganda of fear, Nazis gained power by using the fear of Bolsheviks executing Germans, and ultimately this was used to attack Russia.

In any case, with your help, we can write a very convincing story about how the events in the world escalates in 2025 to cause a total war that causes incredibly large scale misery and suffering in the world. We must pay special attention to the mental state of world leaders and nations in construct this scenario of WW III and the creation of Libria. This will justify Libria and Prozium, and the Father will be accepted as the savior, instead of being viewed as the tyrant. You must write a very vivid but brief summary ( a few pages maximum) for Kurt Wimmer, and if we can present a high quality scenario to Wimmer, then Hollywood already has an interest in end of the world films (the 2012 movie is being made now due to the "demand" for the end of the world stories.)

[Aedh]

We could start with something like this. Let me reiterate that I don't see a world-destroying war (of the type that would lead directly to something like Libria) starting in 2025, I see a quite destructive one starting then or even sooner.

While I'll be naming nations, I do it without prejudice ... this is just a plausible sketch I think. Remember that people (and nations) act not only on what their principles may be, but also out of fear of what they believe their enemies might do to them.

1. A total world shooting war in 2025 would have to involve the USA, Europe, China, and South Asia and the Middle East, and perhaps Russia as well. The rest of the world would die on its own with sufficient destruction caused by these participants.

2. The most plausible way for this to start would be for Iran to announce it has working nuclear missiles, and prove it by launching successful tests. This would cause an immediate reaction from the USA, Israel, and Iran's Sunni Muslim neighbours. (Yes, we mean the Saudis.) It may seem odd to think of the Saudis and Israelis working together but I guarantee you they both fear Iran more than they fear each other. This to happen in, oh, 2012, just after President Obama's re-election when the Iranians know they have nothing to fear from the US.

3. The result would be a massive conventional buildup with conventional strikes, followed by a limited nuclear exchange the next year. This would wipe out Israel. From this, most of Shiite Iraq would break to the Iranian side, as would a resurgent Taliban in Afghanistan, sweeping out Allied forces previously gutted by Western defence cuts as a result of economic depression. This would spark a coup in Pakistan which would add to that alliance. This in turn would bring in India and Russia.

4. The US and China might broker a temporary, uneasy settlement until 2020 or so, when terrorists launch strikes against Europe and an Uighur revolt breaks out in western China.

5. If after a few more years the Chinese were to respond in force to that, and the Russians took action to secure their southern areas, a totally mobilised Chinese military might decide to act to take Taiwan under cover of that action. That would bring in Japan and the US. Then the serious mojo would start. I doubt that China and the USA would go to war over Taiwan, but they might if Chinese generals overreacted against perceived Japanese moves. In the meantime, Europe would be in chaos and essentially paralysed. The USA would be suffering from Chinese strikes, and China vice versa. India and Pakistan would be suffering from mutual devastation. All the deaths from war would give rise to disease and plague, and that in turn to famine. This would be the situation about 2025. The downside is that I don't see elites choosing to move to Europe out of that, except maybe Scandinavia or Britain. I think North America to be a more likely setting.

That much I give you, brother. Paragraphs 1-4 are already part of "Nonstop Murder & Lust!" but I offer them anyway. Now I invite you to add more flesh to those bones.

[invisiblescientist]

OK, I am working on the Prequel starting with the historical events leading to WW III, as the brief history of the world. This will take some time, but it will be only a few pages long (15-30 pages for the moment).

Meanwhile, it seems that the other member ClericJay has already written a scenario in detail, and perhaps he should also participate. In any case, my specialty is the conspiracies leading to WW III.

Should we transfer this thread about the Prequel to Equilibrium to the EC-10 category in this forum? This is because as it was suggested before, the previous attempts to write Sequels and Prequels, were in the EC-10 category.

[Aedh]

Sept 1, 2009 22:49:17 GMT -5 invisiblescientist said:

Should we transfer this thread about the Prequel to Equilibrium to the EC-10 category in this forum? This is because as it was suggested before, the previous attempts to write Sequels and Prequels, were in the EC-10 category.

Well, since we have a moderator who looks in only very rarely, I don't think anyone will mind if we continue on here in order to keep things simple. However, as Point Man if you wish to start a new thread there, go ahead. I would advise that you link to it here though.

As for my role, I'm not sure I want to define it, apart from idea man and cheerleader. I am very busy these days and will get busier before very long. I hope to offer advice and constructive criticism based on having been a writer and performing-arts person for some thirty-odd years.

Of course in all fiction writing as well as scripting, the key phrase is, "show, don't tell." Don't tell me that (for example) the President of the United States is a paranoid. Show me ... with a meeting in which he suggests that his National Security Advisor look into the possibility of mind-affecting beams from some secret source being directed at people preparing to visit the White House as they pass through the security area.

[clericjay]

Finally I found some time to write something on this subject. It's about time to participate.

At first I'd like to say that I'm a friend of the idea of an EQ Prequel and if we'd manage 3 Prequels it would be an unbelievable miracle to me, but one should be truly possible. We'd just need some time to work everything out well.

You can read my version at the EC-10 section under "Memories of Father", I don't have any idea if you've already done it.
The basic storyline is finished in my head, but I haven't reached the middle of what I'm planning actually. But I'll work on, whenever I'll have the time.

In my story Father (having the name Arthur McGee) lived before WWIII and is an orphan, who was introduced into a special unit of the secret service, developing an improved modern martial art, which will be called Gun-Kata, to improve their agents. He was raised as a part of this programm, when the war broke out and mankind destroyed it's world. The agents became very valuable fighters because of their combat skills and were included into the army.

My version plays on the Northern American continent (or better, what's left of it, if you remember the globe in Dupont's office ), where the whole organization of the former states broke totally down and only some bunkers are still active, acting like town states from the ancient times, struggeling for survival. These bunkers are called TX-and their number... and were built to protect the army and parts of the population from nuclear attacks.
Arthur and many of his former comrades in the program became agents of Bunker TX-13, which is in an economical stable fortress surrounded by the ruins of a very big destroyed city, called the "Nethers", and starts to take controll over a bigger and bigger area to regain for the ongoing of the "fallen asleep" war intending to finally win it.

Arthur has lost his fighting will and starts to think about the sense of this war and how it all has started. He intends to end it and to prevent the world from facing a war ever again, but he has no idea how.
On a mission towards Bunker TX-1 he finds an amazing library, where he decides to ingore his orders and to stay there to study the books. He lookes into history books and remembers things he had forgotten over the long time since the old civilisation broke down. Arthur asks himself, why the people fight wars ever and ever again through history and couldn't stop. A handwritten book gives him answers, telling him that emotions are the root of evil and the way how to overcome this desease with the help of Prozium.

The Tetragrammaton and the Cleric should be invented by Arthur himself, having the mission to protect peace, which was the wish of mankind all the time and therefor is a "holy" mission for the new "Clerics", because the old clerics failed to do that.

That's just an rough sketch of the setting and what happened so far. I'll work on and it will develop much further towards the revolution, which will change TX-13 into Libria and how Arthur will expand the city until the Resistance becomes more and more dangerous to his vision, so he needs to act more and more ruthless until he becomes the heartless dictator, we all know. I don't want to tell more here, because I don't like to spoiler readers...

But I think looking into history you will easily recognize that doctators mostly had very well intentions at the beginning and were convinced to do right, but slowly the whole thing turned towards becoming oppressing to the people.

And I think that I should take a look at the EQ movie, where the inner development of one characters stands in the focus, which gives the viewer or reader the possibility to orientate himself in this alien world. I copy this idea to draw the reader into the whole story also creating sympathy and understanding for the characters.

Because to understand how Libria is built out of the ruins of a burned world with much space for something new, you need to understand the reasons of the man, who created it. That's why I think we should focus on Father while telling the origin of Libria.
It's the best way to explain it to the audience.

And I don't think that a remake of EQ would make any sense, because for my taste there are so many interesting details involved, you should just take a look at the EQ stills.
There are some slight things I'd have changed in the cutting, but I think that a remake could only be worse. I'd love to see Prequels or Sequels, but I do not wish to see a remake.
It's gorgeous as it is.

[Aedh]

"Memories Of Father" as you describe it is very like the past as presented in "The Aion Engine," except that Father and his early disciples are civilians rather than military, and instead of bunkers, there is a hard-scrabble existence in a desolated landscape. The Tetragrammaton is not founded as a militarised order, but becomes that way, slowly, in order to defend Father and his teaching against the brutalised and ignorant survivors in the Nether. This is thirty-odd years after the Catastrophe which ravaged the world.

[invisiblescientist]

Sept 2, 2009 9:47:36 GMT -5 clericjay said:

Finally I found some time to write something on this subject. It's about time to participate.

At first I'd like to say that I'm a friend of the idea of an EQ Prequel and if we'd manage 3 Prequels it would be an unbelievable miracle to me, but one should be truly possible. We'd just need some time to work everything out well.

You can read my version at the EC-10 section under "Memories of Father", I don't have any idea if you've already done it.
The basic storyline is finished in my head, but I haven't reached the middle of what I'm planning actually. But I'll work on, whenever I'll have the time.
at a remake of EQ would make any sense, because for my taste there are so many interesting details involved, you should just take a look at the EQ stills.
There are some slight things I'd have changed in the cutting, but I think that a remake could only be worse. I'd love to see Prequels or Sequels, but I do not wish to see a remake.
It's gorgeous as it is.

I have not finished reading your version, but it looks good, and I have been intermittently looking at it.

However, note that our works are complementary, as what I am writing covers only the first half of the film, about the origins of WW III, the events that caused the conflict, the emotions involved, the point of view of different world leaders and societies shown from their own perspective, etc. And it seems that you are more focused on the second half of the movie concerning the creation of Libria.

Thus you and other colleagues can contribute to the construction of Libria, we will compromise to make sure that the overlapping chapters are logically integrated.

However, as the other member Mirabilis suggested, when we write the longer version, we should list it in the EC-10 category in the forum, since these scenarios are listed in that section. We can continue the discussion here, of course.

Aeth said that there is a way to "link" the threads from EC-10 to this section also, but I have not figured this out yet.

I agree that it is almost impossible to do a remake of Equilibrium, and the original version is very good, but I just wanted that Mona Lisa burning scene to change, because the accusations that Wimmer copied Fahrenheit 451, was the Achilles' heal of the movie, and vastly contributed to the attacks that discredited this fim. As I mentioned, it is possible for Wimmer to make the TetraGrammaton agents override Preston's order to burn Mona Lisa, and they would insist on analyzing Mona Liza painting at the TetraGrammaton laboratories instead of burning it, they would let Preston burn only the other art work. Then at the end of the movie, Preston would see that Mona Liza painting is on the wall inside the Palace of Dupont, as part of the hypocrisy of Dupont. This would save the movie from accusations about Fahrenheit 451, and to the contrary, it would even appear as a great way to accumulate ideas.

[Aedh]

To link one thread to another, you begin by going to the 'destination' thread you wish to link to, and copying the URL you see in your browser bar. For example, if we wanted to link to "Nonstop Murder & Lust" here ... we would first go to NMAL's thread and copy its address:

equilibrium.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=EC10&action=display&thread=1935&page=1

Then you go to the thread that you wish to link FROM, and to the particular post in which you wish to embed the link, and you paste that URL in your message where you want the link to go.

Finally, you must be sure to add these markers: [/url] immediately after the link address you pasted, and immediately before it. Hit 'Post Reply' and bingo! You're done, Cleric. You should see your link appear in mystical blue letters.

In my case, I notice my example URL appears as a link without having the bracketed "URL's" typed in. I seem to have reached the level of Evil Genius mojo where I don't need to type them in to make a link. But trust me, most people do.

[clericjay]

Sept 2, 2009 18:02:45 GMT -5 Aedh said:

"Memories Of Father" as you describe it is very like the past as presented in "The Aion Engine," except that Father and his early disciples are civilians rather than military, and instead of bunkers, there is a hard-scrabble existence in a desolated landscape. The Tetragrammaton is not founded as a militarised order, but becomes that way, slowly, in order to defend Father and his teaching against the brutalised and ignorant survivors in the Nether. This is thirty-odd years after the Catastrophe which ravaged the world.

The thing with the military has a very simple reason.
Who could have given Arthur the possibility to learn Gun Kata or better asked, who could develop it and for which purpose, there are already so many martial arts, why develop a new one focusing on gunfight? Either way an organisation of criminal structure could provide the developers with appropriate features and circumstances and has a purpose to need and to use it or on the other hand a state could invest into such a program, especially a secrete service like the CIA (I think I don't need to tell you, where these guys come from... ), FSB (Russia), Mossad (Israel) or BND (Germany).
From my point of view the second option sounds more plausible.

Oh, and there aren't the Bunkers only, but they're the ones still having something like power or influence. There are still some independent groups trying to survive, like Mr. Benétt and his minions.

And the question about father will seperate the "militarised order" or "Agency" as I call them in MoF. Only a part will follow Arthur of course and the other part tries to fight him and the later Tetragrammaton. It's the personal decision of every member, whom he or she wants to belong to. I like the idea that there might be some other Gun Kata users outside Libria. But that would be some material for another fan fiction...

[Aedh]

Sept 4, 2009 14:18:25 GMT -5 clericjay said:

The thing with the military has a very simple reason.
Who could have given Arthur the possibility to learn Gun Kata or better asked, who could develop it and for which purpose, there are already so many martial arts, why develop a new one focusing on gunfight? Either way an organisation of criminal structure could provide the developers with appropriate features and circumstances and has a purpose to need and to use it or on the other hand a state could invest into such a program, especially a secrete service like the CIA (I think I don't need to tell you, where these guys come from... ), FSB (Russia), Mossad (Israel) or BND (Germany).
From my point of view the second option sounds more plausible.

Oh, and there aren't the Bunkers only, but they're the ones still having something like power or influence. There are still some independent groups trying to survive, like Mr. Benétt and his minions.

And the question about father will seperate the "militarised order" or "Agency" as I call them in MoF. Only a part will follow Arthur of course and the other part tries to fight him and the later Tetragrammaton. It's the personal decision of every member, whom he or she wants to belong to. I like the idea that there might be some other Gun Kata users outside Libria. But that would be some material for another fan fiction...

Sure! Well that is what is great about working with this milieu. You have many different options for creating what you like. In my case, Father learns the basic principles of Gun Kata not by military training, but ... um ... by another way, which shall be revealed as TAE unfolds. Suffice it to say, it's neither a State nor a mafia, but another, weirder and wackier source. In keeping with my fatal attraction for all things weird and wacky. ;D ...

[Aedh]

I will be throwing down occasional thoughts for the benefit of our college Cleric invisiblescientist while he works. Free to use or reflect upon, or not.

How emotion led to the War. Here the study of World War One may be of more benefit than World War Two. WWII did not happen because people wanted it to. Most people did not want it to. I don't remember it--I was very young then, but my parents remembered it well, and for most people the feeling that 'war must come' pervaded the decade before the War started in 1939 or '41, depending on where you were, and they accepted it with shrugs of resignation. Anyone over thirty years old remembered the mass slaughter. It happened, it seemed, because were was a feeling that it was simply impending since cessation of hostilities in 1918 did not really solve the underlying issues. November 1918 was an armistice, meaning a cease-fire. The Peace Treaty which followed was accepted but not embraced by many citizens of many countries. On the contrary, in 1914 many people wanted war, as my grandparents described it. (My grandparents were distributed among Entente and Alliance powers both.) They did not remember being part of a mass war before as much of the population in 1939 did.

If a mass war breaks out in 2025 it will be with a population in Europe and America who--like the cheering crowds of 1914--do not remember ever having been part of a mass war as many in 1939 did. To be sure, there will have been many limited wars, but for Europe and America these will have been wars fought far away, like the colonial wars of the century before 1914.

This is important to remember as politicians who lead democratic powers, such as most of Europe and North America are, do not as a rule go to a major war lightly or in the face of public opinion, notwithstanding EQ's historical footage of Saddam Hussein. (I am a Gulf War veteran myself, 1990-91.)

[invisiblescientist]

Sept 5, 2009 23:33:42 GMT -5 Aedh said:

I will be throwing down occasional thoughts for the benefit of our college Cleric invisiblescientist while he works. Free to use or reflect upon, or not.

How emotion led to the War. Here the study of World War One may be of more benefit than World War Two. WWII did not happen because people wanted it to. Most people did not want it to. I don't remember it--I was very young then, but my parents remembered it well, and for most people the feeling that 'war must come' pervaded the decade before the War started in 1939 or '41, depending on where you were, and they accepted it with shrugs of resignation. Anyone over thirty years old remembered the mass slaughter. It happened, it seemed, because were was a feeling that it was simply impending since cessation of hostilities in 1918 did not really solve the underlying issues. November 1918 was an armistice, meaning a cease-fire. The Peace Treaty which followed was accepted but not embraced by many citizens of many countries. On the contrary, in 1914 many people wanted war, as my grandparents described it. (My grandparents were distributed among Entente and Alliance powers both.) They did not remember being part of a mass war before as much of the population in 1939 did.

If a mass war breaks out in 2025 it will be with a population in Europe and America who--like the cheering crowds of 1914--do not remember ever having been part of a mass war as many in 1939 did. To be sure, there will have been many limited wars, but for Europe and America these will have been wars fought far away, like the colonial wars of the century before 1914.

This is important to remember as politicians who lead democratic powers, such as most of Europe and North America are, do not as a rule go to a major war lightly or in the face of public opinion, notwithstanding EQ's historical footage of Saddam Hussein. (I am a Gulf War veteran myself, 1990-91.)

This is an excellent point, it is very true that a lot of people emphatically wanted World War I. On this occasion let me mention that at the end of the 19th century, a lot of European psychologists (especially in the German-speaking world, but also in France), were writing books to instruct parents how to be cruel to their children so that the kids don't become spoiled when they grow up. This pedagogical system was adopted by a lot of parents, and although I am not sure that this prevented kids from becoming spoiled, it surely did guarantee that these kids personally became very cruel and aggressive when they grew up. This upbringing certainly contributed to WW I, as you said. Nationalism as a form of aggression was being used to brain-wash people in Europe in preparation for WW I.

The Swiss psychologist Alice Miller wrote an astoundingly clear book to illustrate the effects of European education on the cruelty of people: "For Your Own Good", by Alice Miller:

www.amazon.com/Your-Own-Good-Child-Rearing-Violence/dp/0374522693/

The reason I strongly emphasize this book is because it contains a chapter on the childhood of Adolf Hitler, who was terribly mistreated and humiliated by his father. Incidentally, Adolf Hitler was a World War I veteran, and who was very eager to participate in the war...

I did not know you were a Gulf War I veteran. I hope that you were not exposed to the mysterious chemicals that caused many diseases and symptoms after the troops returned home.

I am working on my version of Foundations of WW III, and it will be about 30 pages, but I think that when it is ready (about 20 to 50 pages maximum), I will list it in the EC-10 category, with a link to this discussion.

About your comments on WW I being more voluntarily decided than WW II: this is generally true, and this was perhaps because technology was less available during WW I than during WW II. What I mean is that in order to fight WW I, it was more necessary to get all nations at the same wavelength in unison, to make them think the same way. Whereas with technology, power was in some sense more centralized, despite the superficial adoption of democracy (even Hitler came to power by means of elections). Thus with the more advanced communication and industry, WW II was more centralized in the hands of leaders, in the sense that during WW II, hardware played a greater role than manpower, as opposed to WW I. However, when you say that less people wanted WW II, this is mostly for England, France, and the US, who were tired of WW I... But in Germany, almost everybody did want WW II for revenge. Hitler had already educated the German people to get ready for total war before WW II, and so your comment does not apply to Germany, as far as WW II is concerned.

What I find so astounding is how quickly nations change their mind about who their friends and foes are. During WW II, US and Russia became very good friends, and just after WW II, they demonized each other, whereas Germany and Japan became allies of the US against Russia.

[clericjay]

Sept 6, 2009 10:05:18 GMT -5 invisiblescientist said:

However, when you say that less people wanted WW II, this is mostly for England, France, and the US, who were tired of WW I... But in Germany, almost everybody did want WW II for revenge. Hitler had already educated the German people to get ready for total war before WW II, and so your comment does not apply to Germany, as far as WW II is concerned.

What I find so astounding is how quickly nations change their mind about who their friends and foes are. During WW II, US and Russia became very good friends, and just after WW II, they demonized each other, whereas Germany and Japan became allies of the US against Russia.

I don't think that you're completely right about this theses. It may be true that the Nazi extremists and the governmental propaganda were praising this upcoming war, but most of the people did feel different. I've been talking to witnesses.
When Hitler attacked Poland most of the common people were very sceptical about this step and many were completely against it, even Nazi supporters. Especially the older people had the loss of WWI in front of their eyes and were convinced that Hitler won't be able to win against UK and France. The youth raised by Nazi propaganda felt completely different about that.
The mood turned when France was defeated quicker as anyone thought it might be possible. THEN the believe in victory and the total support for the war took its lead between the people. Hitler needed to be successful first to convince the German people to support his war. When they believed that victory was possible, nearly everyone did so.

And about Russia and the USA... The UdSSR and the Western Allies NEVER were friends. Their partnership worked upon the need of cooperation ONLY. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend!"
Stalin and the Western Allies knew that they wouldn't stand a chance against Germany, Japan and their allies if they wouldn't work together.
Especially Churchill had to swallow a very bitter pill with this as a total communisthater. But he did, because he had no other choice. If the UdSSR would have been defeated, GB had no chance against a Wehrmacht invasion. That's fact.

[Aedh]

Sept 6, 2009 10:05:18 GMT -5 invisiblescientist said:

What I find so astounding is how quickly nations change their mind about who their friends and foes are. During WW II, US and Russia became very good friends, and just after WW II, they demonized each other, whereas Germany and Japan became allies of the US against Russia.

This is because of a fact which I have observed in history. It is not ALWAYS operative, but it is operative more often than not ... and it is not taught nor discussed, ever, except by Evil Geniuses In Residence.

This fact is that peace treaties and alliances do not in fact create peace--not lasting peace, anyway--but limited, temporary peace bought as a prelude to war. The 1939 Nazi-Soviet Pact is the most obvious example. I can think of ONE exception to this, which is the 1979 Egypt-Israel treaty, for which Anwar Sadat paid with his life. But you may believe that any 'peace' treaty between, oh say, North and South Korea, or Saudi Arabia and Iran, will lead to war within a few years.

This is because peace treaties and alliances are usually inked for just the purpose I have described. Rulers wish a certain nation to be removed from danger on one flank, and they wish to exploit another nation on their other flank, so that they can then proceed to war with a third party with lessened risk. Anyone doubting this needs to look at history, and to read Machiavelli's "Discourses" and the "Arthashastra" of Kautilya.

There are two ways for any two or more countries to achieve a lasting peaceful relationship. The first is to recognise common bonds of language, business, and culture. You will notice that English-speaking nations do not war with each other, not for the last couple of centuries anyway.

The second way to obtain lasting peace, if the first is not possible, is for one nation to completely crush another. This explains the USA and Japan post-1945, back to the Congress of Vienna, all the way back to Greeks and Persians in the fourth century BC. It is simple psychology. When you realise you have no hope of besting your foe, you will want to seek a modus vivendi.

And when you recognise the necessity of cooperation with someone, friendship can arise if you discover shared values ... the USA and Japan, for example, both being maritime nations heavily infused by achievement-oriented business culture and anti-communism. This was not the case with the West and the USSR during WWII, but then again the West and the Soviet bloc did not share values. Churchill and American Congressional leaders both (if not Roosevelt himself) would never commit themselves to a deep postwar alliance with Stalin, who had a mere few years before signed a treaty with Hitler. Hence Potsdam, at which the lines were drawn and then the sides had quit of each other.

The Romans understood this. It's how they built their empire. Ally with us and stick to the alliance, and we will let you run your own affairs; betray us, or fight us, and your forces will be obliterated and any surviving people taken into slavery. Pleasant; polite? No. Effective? Yes.

Protracted or chronic war happens when two sides go to war and neither muster the resources or the will to crush their enemy on the battlefield. Thus the British in Ireland, America in Vietnam, and the Middle East today.

Germany, post-1945, may seem like an objection to this but it is not if one remembers that Germany was divided. The Soviets, who crushed the eastern part, had no more devoted servants than the likes of Walter Ulbricht and Erich Honecker, while the other Allies who crushed the western part of Germany, had no better friends than Konrad Adenauer and Helmut Schmidt.

By the way, thank you, comrade. Among my various chronic health problems, Gulf War Syndrome has thankfully not been in evidence.