Manhunt: harmless fun or a murderer's guide?

[aka Jack Torrence]

This game was engulfed by a firestorm of outrage and controversy since it was first released. In case you didn't know, Manhunt is a video game in which you take control of a psychopathic killer who finds himself the unwitting participant in a snuff movie. (Snuff movies are those featuring real-life murder and torture.) The aim of the game is simple: you have to brutally murder as many "hunters" as possible; hunters being the assortment of hoodlums and criminals who have been hired to hunt your character down and kill him.

You are awarded higher points if the style of murder is particularly gruesome. The most basic method of execution is suffocation by plastic bag, but other methods include strangulation with razor wire (including decapitation), strangulation and decapitation by baseball bat, smashing the enemy's skull with a metal bar, slicing their throat with a glass shard, chopping them to pieces with a chainsaw, and a wide selection of other equally grim methods ranging from disembowelment to bludgeoning.



The game has been banned in several countries, on the grounds that it is too graphic and may inspire copycat killings. Its producers are embroiled in numerous courtcases and recently in the UK they have been taken to court by the parent's of a teenager who was hacked to death by another teenager who had an apparent obsession with the game.

So who's played it here? I rented it a few nights ago, and I have to say that I like it. But I think there is some truth in the argument that games such as this could inspire violence in certain individuals who are predisposed to violent behaviour. It is a fact that many violent individuals are fixated on violent fantasies, and I think a game like Manhunt could indeed fuel those fantasies and increase the chances of an individual acting out his murderous fantasies in real life.

What do you think, both about the game itself and the outrage surrounding it?

[FlatLine]

aka said:

But I think there is some truth in the argument that games such as this could inspire violence in certain individuals who are predisposed to violent behaviour. It is a fact that many violent individuals are fixated on violent fantasies, and I think a game like Manhunt could indeed fuel those fantasies and increase the chances of an individual acting out his murderous fantasies in real life.

I for one am sick and tired of hearing how computer games / movies / music / whatever, are to blame for all of the ills in society. If we have to legislate for the weakest, weirdest members of society then all we would be allowed to do is sit in padded cells and play with fluffy toys. Why can't people take responsibility for their own actions? Why must there always be something else to blame - "It wasn't my fault I hacked that guy to death. I only did it because I saw it in a computer game" What a load of rubbish. Some people will always break the rules of society whether they have access to all of the 'dangerous' stimuli I mentioned above or not. I blame our litigious culture with all of the damn lawyers looking to make a fast buck by blaming anything for their clients problems.

[Sontin-JudasFm]

I have to say firstly that I avoid any kind of games like these, not because I find them offensive but because I find them deeply, utterly boring, so I haven't actually played Manhunt and bar the obvious sadism in the game, at first glance the idea of hunting down your opponents and killing them doesn't seem to me to be much different from any other game-I glanced at the back of the box in the store and just thought it was another shoot-'em-up.

aka said:

This game was engulfed by a firestorm of outrage and controversy since it was first released. In case you didn't know, Manhunt is a video game in which you take control of a psychopathic killer who finds himself the unwitting participant in a snuff movie. (Snuff movies are those featuring real-life murder and torture.) The aim of the game is simple: you have to brutally murder as many "hunters" as possible; hunters being the assortment of hoodlums and criminals who have been hired to hunt your character down and kill him.

You are awarded higher points if the style of murder is particularly gruesome. The most basic method of execution is suffocation by plastic bag, but other methods include strangulation with razor wire (including decapitation), strangulation and decapitation by baseball bat, smashing the enemy's skull with a metal bar, slicing their throat with a glass shard, chopping them to pieces with a chainsaw, and a wide selection of other equally grim methods ranging from disembowelment to bludgeoning.

The game has been banned in several countries, on the grounds that it is too graphic and may inspire copycat killings.

I'm not sure what it means by 'too graphic', actually. Too violent, too sadistic and too depraved...yup, from what you've said, I'll go with that But I think if you're making a game like this, you ought to show the whole thing. It comes down to the old adage, "if you're going to lie, make a good job of it", if that makes sense

On the copycat side, a fair few years ago, there was similar outrage over the Power Rangers; more than one case occurred where children were seriously injuring each other (and most probably themselves) trying to copy the martial arts moves. Similarly there have been copycat killings based on the movie Child's Play 3.

Going even further back, the week after The Exorcist was released, twelve people had to be admitted to a mental hospital after seeing it. It was before my time (obviously!) but my mother was a scientist in the vet labs at the time and she said one of her friends went to see it and it took six months before they felt comfortable sleeping.

aka said:

Its producers are embroiled in numerous courtcases and recently in the UK they have been taken to court by the parent's of a teenager who was hacked to death by another teenager who had an apparent obsession with the game.

I wouldn't mind knowing how old that teenager was. Here in England the game's rated 18, and while admittedly not many people take much notice of ratings any more (particularly with this new 12A thing; what kind of screwed-up drugs was the BBFC on when they came up with that f***ed-up idea?? ) Ahem. Sorry; tangential rant there. As I was saying, although not many people take much notice of ratings any more, they're there for a reason, and if this kid was underage, it pains me to say it but maybe you can't blame the game for it.

aka said:

So who's played it here? I rented it a few nights ago, and I have to say that I like it. But I think there is some truth in the argument that games such as this could inspire violence in certain individuals who are predisposed to violent behaviour.

It is a fact that many violent individuals are fixated on violent fantasies, and I think a game like Manhunt could indeed fuel those fantasies and increase the chances of an individual acting out his murderous fantasies in real life.

What do you think, both about the game itself and the outrage surrounding it?[/quote]

I think to a certain extent I agree with FlatLine; there are too many people who go and hack others to pieces and then have someone say, "oh, it's not his fault, he saw it in a computer game and couldn't help himself" That said, films and games can have an effect on people; that can't just be dismissed.

Two final things, then I promise I'll shut up:

1. Regardless of whether or not it affects people, I think the concept behind this particular game is sick in the extreme. At least with most kill games the developers don't expect you to take pure pleasure in killing your opponents. Satisfaction, maybe, but not pleasure. I would like to see this game taken off the shelves, more because of the concept than the possibility of copycats.

2. I also think that killing people and then claiming you got the idea from a PC game is like saying you did it because your parents didn't love you enough. Both exist, both are very real, but people now tend to use them so often that they're not taken seriously any more. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions.

Bottom line, if they know a game is pretend, they must already have a screw loose if they want to go out and re-enact it for real. People like that don't usually rely on the games to make the decision to kill. They just rely on them for ideas.

[Deimos]

Well you both made your points more eloquently than I could, so I'll keep it simple. When you play a game like Manhunt, is your immediate reaction to go out and cave in your best mate's skull with a claw hammer? The fact is that only a moron/psychopath would try and copy computer game violence.

The most ridiculous thing about this (and it happens *all the sodding time*) is that in a few years no one will care. Remember the fuss over Grand Theft Auto and Carmegeddon? In the latter you actually got bonuses for running people down in a car, and yet the roads are as safe (or unsafe depending on your view) as they were before it was released. They actually bundled copies of GTA3 with every Playstation 2 for heaven's sake!

If we give in to the think-of-the-children brigade we're going to end up living in a society completely sheltered from violence and nastiness. In effect, we will be in Huxley's Brave New World and, frankly, I don't want to see our society go that way.

Incidentally, did anyone else see that news article that said that children today are more vulnerable to diseases and viruses *because* they are so sheltered and over-protected? Apparently they can't build up a resistance to the diseases if they have absolutely no chance of coming into contact with them.

Deimos

[Sontin-JudasFm]

Deimos said:

Incidentally, did anyone else see that news article that said that children today are more vulnerable to diseases and viruses *because* they are so sheltered and over-protected? Apparently they can't build up a resistance to the diseases if they have absolutely no chance of coming into contact with them.

Very true. Also, children seem to be sheltered too much from disappointment; there have been cases where the kid doesn't get into the netball/football/rugby/basketball/rounders/hockey/insert-sport-here team and the parent phones to complain. When I was a kid, you accepted it and dealt with it...if anything, it acted as an incentive to try harder. If you don't have to work for anything, how can you learn to appreciate things?

[skippythegator]

I'm still playing the game actually - I started about a month ago and haven't finished yet. I must say the violence is too much for my taste; halfway through the death animations I always blink and turn away.

It does help the illusion of the game that the guys you're executing are not nice people - they are there to kill you too. Even the cops are corrupt (no normal policeman would carry a machine pistol to hunt you down). I think that is the one possible mitigating factor for the violence; you never come across innocents or non-combatants who you have to kill.

I haven't finished the game because quite frankly, the suspense is too much for me and the violence really does get to you after a while. I couldn't (and still can't) play it for more than about 15 minutes a day; in fact I haven't touched it in almost 2 weeks.

Flatline: agree with you there. I think the issue is really about responsibility more than anything else.

JudasFM: by "too graphic", it means that the violence is extremely in-your-face, blood and guts everywhere, and it's physical violence too - baseball bats, shards of glass, etc. Truly sickening stuff. Would I like to see it taken off the shelves? hmmm...not sure about that. I definitely wouldn't want it accessible to everyone though. I'd like it much less accessible than it is now, for sure.

Deimos: in addition to your comments, there is also a context in the game, and the violence must be taken in that context. It's that the opponents in the game are specifically there to kill you too (it's part of the story).


Responsibility...a religion teacher I had in elementary school defined it as the ability and willingness to face the consequences of your actions. To do that, one must have an awareness of those consequences, and *that* I think only comes with age and experience, or proper upbringing. I think things like these are being taken too lightly nowadays.

[Deimos]

JudasFm said:

If you don't have to work for anything, how can you learn to appreciate things?

Just another poignant quote from Brave New World (what can I say, I've just re-read it for English):

"Nothing costs enough here."

Deimos

[DeadCleric]

aka said:

...and recently in the UK they have been taken to court by the parent's of a teenager who was hacked to death by another teenager who had an apparent obsession with the game

This is not entierly true. The game was actually found in the victims home, and the media latched onto it, making a scapegoat of the games company. The police nor the prosecution used this "evidence". This is like so much other things today where the media puts an emphasis on something rather unrelated. I don't think there is any connection between video games and these murders, apart from the very young who do not know right from wrong. If this guy wanted to kill this other guy then he would have done it regardless of the game. And the idea that a game like this could actually teach people to kill is crazy. Is it illegal to know how to kill a person? Should we stop teaching biology to kids? No no no. I think games have just become the scapegoat for all things bad, like so many other things. It has gotten to the stage that no one really believes they should be banned nor care much (well not in this country anyway). That's it.

---

edit* oh! forgot to say Yeah I've played this game. It's ok. But I have to say that it really does feel more like killing a person than any other game around (not that i'd know . But yeah it feels quite disturbing when you make your first few kills. But you seem to become desensitised after a while, which is the only worrying part...

[Deimos]

The thing about desensitivity to violence is that it *stops* when you stop playing the game. I can happily kill any number of virtual beings in any number of ways, but I'd like to think that faced with a situation like that in real life, I'd be terrified. Games are the ideal scapegoat as, unlike violent films, games require you to take an *active* role in killing as opposed to just watching. Sometimes though a game can be stress relief. Better some nutjob killing people in a computer game than a nutjob killing real people because he can't find an outlet for his anger.

Deimos

[Sontin-JudasFm]

Deimos said:

Sometimes though a game can be stress relief.

Very true! When I was about eleven or twelve I used to play Wolfenstein 3D; I'd got my PC from a friend and she'd saved a game on the very last level. Whenever I was feeling particularly stressed, I used to go in and blast hell out of the guy; it worked wonders

[mawa]

Joining the discussion:

I think that blaming computer games/movies/whatever for violence is ridiculous. It's assuming that people are idiots and will do anything that's shown in a game. I won't judge Manhunt since I haven't played it, but it happens that I came up against another game ( I was 15 then ), which is pretty violent. It's quite old and probably well known - it's Phantasmagoria. There were also some very graphic scenes ( those of you who played that will know what I mean ), but nonetheless I enjoyed this game.

Now one could think that I'm a psycho killer. No, I'm not.


There is one thing that has been already mentioned and which scares me: complete lack of responsibility and resignation from upbringing the kids. It's completely ill situation when kid is upbringed only by TV and games. Hey, where are the parents? I believe that someone with already inculcated moral principles won't be harmed by a computer game! It's far more important to teach a kid to distinguish reality from fiction and good from evil then to ban books/games/movies and so on.

[Walldude]

Couldn't have said it better MaWa. You wanna blame someone blame the parents who allow TV and games to babysit their kids for them.(of course as I type this my kids are in the next room watching Harry Potter )

That said I am a hardcore gamer. I am usually the first person to defend a game like this. Problem is the game sucked. Walk up to a guy, press a button, watch a movie of a violent murder. No thanks. Give me Doom 3 any day. I think Manhunt was designed with controversy in mind. Usually if a game is this controversial it sucks. Manhunt, Postal, Postal 2. The only game that lived up to it's promise and controversy was the GTA series, I had a blast with that. Maybe if these moral watchdogs would just leave it alone, crappy games like this would fade from existance. Instead they fuel the fires with their bullshit and crappy games sell tons of units making way for more violent and crappy games...

[Sontin-JudasFm]

MaWa said:

It's quite old and probably well known - it's Phantasmagoria. There were also some very graphic scenes ( those of you who played that will know what I mean ), but nonetheless I enjoyed this game.

You too? ;D I chickened out of the last scene though; my cousin Tor finished it and I had to get her to tell me what happened at the end

Phantasmagoria 2 is BRILLIANT though...haven't played too far through; I got twenty minutes in and it crashed, but it's fantastic!

Also 7th Guest and 11th Hour...again pretty graphic but brilliant, brilliant games.

Ahem. Sorry; got mugged in Memory Lane for a while there ;D TBH I don't object to violence or graphic scenes in games if they're relevant to the story. Programmers that do it purely for the shock value don't get anything more than my pity

[Walldude]

Wow, I remember waiting and waiting for Phantasmagoria, then being dissapointed. Especially since it was a Roberta Williams game, she was a freakin genius..

[Sontin-JudasFm]

Walldude said:

Wow, I remember waiting and waiting for Phantasmagoria, then being dissapointed. Especially since it was a Roberta Williams game, she was a freakin genius..

*sighs* Yep...it was a black day indeed when they fired her

[Walldude]

JudasFm said:

*sighs* Yep...it was a black day indeed when they fired her

Yeah from the company she and her husband founded..

[skippythegator]

After this discussion, I decided to go back to Manhunt and maybe finish it this time. I'm a little farther along the game now, and I have to admit that there really is some fun in it, if you can look past the gore and violence.

For those of you who haven't played, this is the kind of game experience you would find:

- hiding in a shadow, armed only with a plastic bag, while two or three hunters with guns wander by less than four feet away from you, mumbling to themselves about what they're going to do when they find you.

-coming up with a plan to take out those hunters one at a time.

-making a noise to lure one hunter away from the others, only to hear him say "I'm not going out there alone, cover me!" and having all his buddies come with him, walking around and peering into the shadows where you're hiding.

Of note is one level on the early/middle part of the game in which the hunters have captured four members of your family, and every time they catch more than a glimpse of you, they will kill one captive. Talk about pressure.

It's kind of like Die Hard 1, except that you're not exactly a good guy.

And the voice acting by Brian Cox ("The Director") is utterly convincing. If you play with headphones like I do, it's like he's whispering in your ear telling you to do bad things (shudder).

Pretty grim stuff to get into, but despite the adult content, it's technically a very polished, very accomplished game.

edit: after reading the reviews for this game on the web, I would suggest restricting this to ages 25 and up...

[Sontin-JudasFm]

Walldude said:

Yeah from the company she and her husband founded..

In a kind of roundabout way they got their comeuppance though when Sierra had to be closed down permanently *cue gleeful cackle* Should have known better than to fire all those guys ;D

[Witcher Wolf]

Except that Sierra still exist.

They became: Vivendi Universal Games.

[Sontin-JudasFm]

Only in terms of the logo; the Sierra offices themselves were closed earlier of this year:

June 22, 2004
VU Closes Sierra
It was widely reported in the gaming press today that VU has cut 350 employees and completely closed down Sierra's Bellevue office.

from Al Lowe's Humor Site

The lights go out at old-school game company, Sierra, as Vivendi restructures its business.

More depressing news for the industry, Vivendi Universal Games has cut 350 staff and shut down Seattle-based Sierra. The venerable games company created some of the most popular action and adventure games in the 80's. The Sierra brand will live on in name only and projects tied to the Sierra pipeline, Half-Life 2, Ground Control II and Tribes: Vengeance are already being developed by other teams within Vivendi. Also affected by the restructuring, the Hoyle brand of card and board games have been canceled.

from Game Daily

It's not indicated by Vivendi which of its North American studios or departments have been affected by the cuts, although reports suggest that the entire staff quota at the publisher's Sierra offices in Bellevue, Washington has gone, with the offices to close within two months.

It's expected that VUG will continue to use the Sierra brand, however, and such big-name titles being published under the Sierra label as Half-Life 2, Ground Control II and Tribes: Vengeance are not affected.

Papyrus and Impressions, studios that the publisher shut down last month, are reportedly also part of VU Games' mass cull.

from PcPro

No cuts at Blizzard, but Sierra winks out of existence as Vivendi restructures

Vivendi Universal Games has announced that 350 staff have been laid off as part of the firm's restructuring efforts, representing some 40 per cent of its US workforce - with the toughest cuts coming at the Sierra operation.

Reports this morning indicate that almost the entirety of the staff at the former Sierra offices at Bellevue, Washington have been laid off, and the office itself is due to close within the next two months - although it's expected that VUG will continue to use the Sierra brand.

from GamesIndustry.biz

See, it's not just me ;D At least, not unless I've missed something somewhere

[Witcher Wolf]

*BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHS*

[skippythegator]

...so anyways I finished Manhunt last week...

...the first part of the last stage was one of the most terrifying experiences I've ever had (although that may not be saying much since I have a low tolerance for suspense). Oddly enough, it wasn't that hard. It was mostly the atmosphere that made it so.

The second half of the last stage was very much a denouement

[aka Jack Torrence]

A denoument? So what happens, does your character end up being killed also?

[TheMacroprosopus]

So...I've never actually played this game, but I do own the three PS2 GTAs. I am rather shocked at the steps up the developers took with San Andreas. Although, I'm not sure why the profanity and violence shock me, because such things occur in movies all the time. I suppose I just feared an AO rating, but that would most likely involve hardcore porn. Although, the throat slitting animation was quite scary, because of the sound. So realistic!

Anyway, one thing that was mentioned that I'd like to bring up again is parents. Every kid should have parents at least remotely like mine. I tend to disagree with how tough they can be on me, but it does help to keep me in line. For Christmas...um...what...five years ago? Yeah (when I got my CD player) I got Limp Bizkit's Significant Other. So...it didn't work properly the first time I listened to it, so we took it back to Music World. However, one song that did work was "Break Stuff". I managed to get my parents to listen to that on the way to the mall. When the song ended, they looked at each other and said "Yeah...you aren't getting any more CDs like this." Since then I have, but that was on my own. I had to buy Chocolate Starfish edited. Got it unedited later.

Dad tells me that I can't watch A Clockwork Orange until I'm 21. I'll probably see it before then, but still...

The point I'm trying to make is that if parents have a bit more control over their kids, we won't have as many people out there that are complete morons. Kids threatening to stab other kids for stepping on their toe, murders over fights, drugs, guns, etc.

Games like these certainly don't help, but they aren't to blame either. They are, quite simply, outlets. Outlets that don't end in physical harm. Except one's TV when a controller meets it at 20 miles an hour.

I like how Dawn of the Dead subliminally speaks against theft. "Now, I don't want anyone sneaking around, stealing shit." Even during the end of the world, the filmmakers uphold morals. Genius.


Okay, so some of that was totally random, but hopefully my point can be found in it.

[Witcher Wolf]

I like your parents kiddo. They remind me a lot of mine.

Violent games are just like movies, there's an off switch and there's a choice to play them.

These so-called interest groups, they're serving just one interest -- their own, their agenda...it's certainly not my desire to see anything restricted.

As Jen once said to me, we'd be hypocrites if we supported EQ yet didn't endorse its message.

What next...are these people going to impliment EC-10 ratings and tell us what we can and can't watch? (When I mean us, I mean us to whom age ratings don't apply - I'd like to have a choice whether to play GTA: SA and see The Chronicles of Riddick...but OMG it might be too violent for my eyes and because of the violence I might go out and kill someone...the only people I want to vaguely kill are the ones that make up these interest groups in the first place).

And it's not violent games that make me want to do that it's their controlling, crass stupidity.

I know though, it's Satan that really makes games because he likes to corrupt people into playing them...personally I think if there was such a thing as Satan he'd dress in a suit and be part of these interest groups.

Developers have to be more responsible...yes...there are lines...but Mr and Mrs. Moral Majority should keep the hell out of the discussion if they allow Little Beavis to play MurderDeathKill3000 on his Ps3.

So I don't have kids but I can tell you for sure if I did I'd make sure mine had no access to those materials until they were old enough.

But if they broke the rule I would have to go Cleric on their asses.

There are already age-related ratings in most of our countries but...and this is a big but...if the gamestores and media outlets continue to serve underage children and the parents allow the game to be played in their homes...we're always going to have this problem.

Take away their TV and console mom and dad...

Or some right-wing psuedo religious crackpots will take away all of your entertainment and leave you with just one thing.

Barbies Horse Adventures.

[skippythegator]

aka: really want to know?

after getting past the really scary sub-boss,


*****POSSIBLE SPOILER******


actually you kill 5 guards in pretty much the same way you did all through the game which by now is pretty f**ing stale. Then you get locked in a room with the director, a fat geek with a pistol. When he runs out of ammo (real quick), run after him with your chainsaw. Pfft. Even the gore is meaningless by that point.


*******END SPOILER*********


Stuponfucius:

I totally agree with you throughout your "random" statements and would like to add as well that it's not just that parents have to be tough on kids - it's being tough in the right way, and still being able to get the kids to listen to them. Imho it comes from trust and respect. And ummm to add a random thought of my own, I like how in You Got Served (yeah yeah I watched it, sue me) the main characters try to uphold some morals too, by saying a prayer, showing family values and "no cussing". Totally unexpected, that last bit, but welcome. I wouldn't describe the film as "genius" but it's got its heart in the right place ;D


CW:
ummmm.....true dat

[Silencer]

I won't get started on the politics, because I don't want to make that big of a post.

I will say this, upon playing manhunt (I stopped halfway through, also, out of boredom), it was the only game that has ever really made me sick. But it wasn't a bad type of sickness, and I think this is what Rockstar was trying to accomplish (over controversy). I got the same feeling about murder playing manhunt as I did about drugs watching Requiem for a Dream or about war watching Schindler's List. In effect, it lest me with the feeling that manhunt was more a piece of art over a videogame. So as far as harmless fun goes, probably not, but the game was worth playing.

And murderers guide? I doubt it. I can go online and learn how to kill a man. I can talk to my uncle (marine who served in vietnam) and learn how to kill a man. There are a million other ways to learn how to kill that are much more effective than a video game. I learned more about harming people from being on the school's wrestling team (a "heathy" alternative to videogames, according to my parents) than I did from manhunt, or GTA, or any other violent game. I can break your knees, but I still suck with a gun. I can put you in a full nelson and snap your neck, but I still don't know the best places to stab someone. I can put you to sleep, strangle you, and dislocate your arms, and I learned all this garbage FROM A SPORT! So in essence, the argument of videogames teaching violence is horse-shit. Then there's the fact that I don't feel compelled to kill anybody, and probably never will. I'm sure everybody on this board, as well as practically every gamer does not feel compelled to kill anybody, and probably never will.

[Deimos]

Well I don't mind the political slant cos I've had a chip on my shoulder about interest groups for a while now.

If they spent less time and money bitching about "corrupting the minds of children" and spent that time and money on feeding the children fucking starving in the Third World then maybe we'd live in a better society. I can't stand the thought that they go to sleep at night thinking they've made some big massive moral victory and can consider themselves wonderful people working for the common good with the world in the state it is today. We should be concentrating on the things that matter instead of pissing around trying to turn the West into a little bubble-wrapped corner of mollycoddled, over-protected kids. Same goes for the moron animal rights activists who firebomb the houses of people who test products on animals - how about translating your love of all things nonhuman to someone who actually needs it? People who put the lives of animals over the lives of people make me sick.

Sorry, feeling a little volitile today but I'm interested to see what everyone else thinks.

Deimos