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Post by JenGe on Jun 17, 2006 19:44:31 GMT -5
I have received the following and before I level the ax I would like any input the members of the forum might want to add to this situation... PM Complaint Sent to Me... Case threads: EQ IconsMore Yin than Yang May 19th update |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 18, 2006 5:46:41 GMT -5
I read back on the way TetraShark was treated, that was way out of line and reflected badly on the forum and its users.
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Post by Walldude on Jun 18, 2006 10:54:21 GMT -5
Well, I thought maybe it was just a sign of immaturity when he got insulted by MaWa's critique, but after seeing the Icon thread where he was downright insulting to the work TetraShark did on the icons I have no problem with the guy getting the axe. It's one thing to have a hard time dealing with criticism but something else when your own critiques consist of nothing more than thinly veiled insults. Litterily  |
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Post by Vespertilio on Jun 18, 2006 13:41:27 GMT -5
I agree with Cleric Wolf & Walldude.
Brother Bishop has consistantly shown a lack of respect for others and his treatment of TetraShark was inexcusable. He has refused at every turn to even acknowledge that his words may have been hurtful to others or offer any apology when it's clear that they have been.
Since he pretty much dared JenGe to ban him in the Icons thread, perhaps he should have his bluff called.
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Post by Libby on Jun 18, 2006 14:14:04 GMT -5
*sighs again*
My views of the whole YinYangThing are posted for anyone to read...
I know JenGe sometimes likes to bait and feed the trolls and others of us find it amusing for a while, but BB is seriously out of line in his rude and insulting comments about TetraShark's work (which I will admit I had not read...and would have been most annoyed if I had).
Isn't the whole point of using a PhotoWhatever program to take existing stills and use the features to create 'new art'. Creating Icons is indeed tricky and I take my virtual hat off to anyone who can produce them...
I was going to theorise on possible psychological reasons for all these negative remarks...but what the hell, just get rid of him...
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Post by mawa on Jun 18, 2006 14:44:48 GMT -5
As for me, there was a time I didn't know what to think about Bishop's comments. In fletcher's Fan art thread after his comment about pointing out the flaws of one's art in order to show the ways of improving it, I actually wondered whether not to speak up for him ( because I thought he was right in this respect ). But as I saw his reaction for my feedback in "More Yin than Yang" thread, where I just did what he was talking about: pointed out the flaws and ways of correcting them, I understood that this guy doesn't deserve to be treated seriously. Of course negative feedback isn't pleasant - this is natural. But I had the right to expect more maturity from someone who was ranting about "pointing out flaws". Moreover, I noticed that he tends to comment only on these pieces of art where he has something negative to say, which is an apparent sign of a troll. He needs to grow up. |
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Post by Aedh on Jun 19, 2006 0:59:26 GMT -5
I find myself the lone dissenter .. as usual ... I think he was rather rude over the icons, and rather rude again over MaWa's critique. Maybe I am toughened by rather too many years dealing professionally (and personally) with people with diagnosed emotional disorders, but I say leave him be for a while. In neither case did he apologise, but in neither case did he carry on in an extended fashion: in the MaWa example he posted three times over four days, and in the TetraShark example it was four posts over two days, and in both cases he desisted fairly soon after it became clear that no one was buying his point of view. Who knows, maybe our responses (well, not mine, I wasn't involved in either thread) made something percolate inside him somewhere. I tend to think that banning should be reserved for people that carry on really obsessively, like ten posts a day for a week, and/or use language that could land the site in trouble, like repeated F-bombs. And I think his rudeness is general to the world and directed only incidentally and briefly at individuals. I think he should get another chance. |
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Post by Vespertilio on Jun 19, 2006 1:41:38 GMT -5
aedh, I see your point and I would be willing to give him another chance if he could at least treat others as he wishes to be treated himself. He is not what I would consider a "classic" Troll in terms of spamming and foul language, but the bulk of his posts seem to be specifically aimed at getting a negative response from others and then claiming that he is the victim. It's perfectly possible to criticize someone without being rude or abusive, and even better, simply agree to disagree amicably. I've dealt with a number of people "outside the Matrix" who behave like Brother Bishop and I guess I just don't want to have to deal with it here too. Not because I'm thin skinned, but because I find it tiresome and something of a downer.  Anyway, that's my slightly revised opinion. -Vesper |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 19, 2006 4:27:35 GMT -5
As Jen has said in the past here, there's no language filter on the EQ site because it would be rather Hypocritical to put one in due to the fact Kurt Wimmer's film is about the dangers of excessive censorship emotionally and otherwise.
However that does not give anyone any excuse to be as rude and destructive as he has been to people here, and I myself am rather protective of this site and fandom.
No second chances, that's the kind of man I am.
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Post by wtf on Jun 19, 2006 14:37:55 GMT -5
On other boards, I've seen similiar behavior. They hang around awhile and either settle down, or they wander off after a few flames. I could have sworn we've seen stuff on these boards before, and they just left after they did their little bomb of glory. Maybe JenGe just nips 'em in the bud and I just think they leave. I just defend myself when attacked, and not worry too much about it. Brother Bishop and other interested parties: I don't contribute critiques because when I critique, I really critique. So if someone asks in IRL, I go "you want a creative pep talk, or do you want me to *really analyze it?*" because I'm happy to do either...most people want the former and get upset when they get the latter.  And for goodness sake, if you say something sucks you have to say *why* you think so, and *how* you think they can improve. Just saying "it sucks" screams "I'm 14 and normally hang out in the City of Heroes forums complaining about how nerfed my character is." As forums go this is a really cool one. For all the sense-offending on here, we're a pretty laid back group and supportive of everyones' eccentricities. |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 20, 2006 5:12:32 GMT -5
And for goodness sake, if you say something sucks you have to say *why* you think so, and *how* you think they can improve. Just saying "it sucks" screams "I'm 14 and normally hang out in the City of Heroes forums complaining about how nerfed my character is." That was truly beautiful. |
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Post by Aedh on Jun 21, 2006 22:57:50 GMT -5
I relate to what Aikido says. My ex (who at the time was engaged to another guy, but we knew each other socially) once asked me after a recital how I thought she sang. I didn't know that what she was really asking was: 'Will you please give me a pat?' So I critiqued her recital in what I thought was a fair and impartial manner; nothing I wouldn't have appreciated hearing from her had the situation been reversed. After twenty-five years she has not forgotten one word of what I said. Now there is someone who was tailor-made for Prozium.  |
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Post by ViolentMessiah on Jun 22, 2006 20:56:25 GMT -5
i personally dont see what BB did that is so bad. yeah alot of the stuff he said was annoying but i would hope that those who were offended would be endowed with the thick skin that BB apparently doesnt have.
i dont mean to diminish in any way anyone else's personal feelings about his behavior, but i just dont think that someone should be severely punished just because they happen to piss you off. it seems like it was only a few posts. a case could be made if he was constantly posting insults back to back in various threads or indulging in trollish behavior but personally the kind of stuff he said was mild to say the least.
thats my opinion anyway.
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Post by Greyflower on Jun 23, 2006 1:20:01 GMT -5
I agree with ViolentMessiah. BB didn't want to insult anyone; in fact he just wanted to do something to seem "big and tough". He is definitely not a troll!
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 23, 2006 4:31:39 GMT -5
I've seen people on a dozen other forums banned for less. Hell /I've/ been banned for less on some gaming forums.
For me it becomes an issue when people begin to erode the confidence of others, such as TetraShark.
My skin's pretty thick, infact I've been ripped to pieces so harshly across the net (Libby knows what I mean) that most other people would have given up and never come back online.
Let me put it to you this way, do you think it's right for one person to put another off posting on the board?
Would you be happy with losing members because of this one particular person? A poster was banned at a large gaming forum recently for exactly the same thing BB does, belittles other peoples work but can't stand to be critiqued fairly themselves.
Up until then the admin let him get away with nothing short of verbal murder, until they noticed that people stopped posting...the amount of visitors went down on their site.
There comes a time when you say enough is enough...Moderate or Admin any forum and you'll see what I mean, because if you don't stop it before it starts these places become unhappy and vile places to be.
We used to have a poster here called Trinity, she got fed up with some of the trolls and we never saw her again, her post count had to be in the 2,000 to 3,000 range. So while some people don't care or don't think BB's attitude was that bad, I'd have banned him from any forum I moderate after his little shin-ding with Jen over TetraShark and so would about 90% of the Admin I know.
But then again I'm widely known as a miserable bastard.
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 23, 2006 4:41:03 GMT -5
I agree with ViolentMessiah. BB didn't want to insult anyone; in fact he just wanted to do something to seem "big and tough". He is definitely not a troll! It's often considered that the behaviour BB showed when he was arguing with JenGe over TetraShark, is actually that of a troll. But I actually think all of this is a moot point, because I do believe BB left with the words: kthnxbai after his final statement in the More Yin than Yang thread, when he couldn't stand the critique that MaWa offered in a constructive manner. |
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Post by JenGe on Jun 23, 2006 10:56:53 GMT -5
But then again I'm widely known as a miserable bastard. Says who?? I'm a strange admin. For the most part I feel that people should be allowed to govern themselves. Obviously we've had times that trolls and immaturity will not allow that. This is the reason I did not ban BB out right. I actually enjoy trolls to some extent. They keep the discussion going and debate is always fun. BB on the other hand has to some extent the proverbial "people in glasses houses" complex. |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 23, 2006 16:04:02 GMT -5
But then again I'm widely known as a miserable bastard. Says who?? The same people that labelled me as the most pompous arrogant douchebag, I really was quite touched |
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Post by JenGe on Jun 23, 2006 19:44:19 GMT -5
The same people that labelled me as the most pompous arrogant douchebag, ... These have obviously not met my father nor my eldest son.  Confidence and self assurance does not automatically equate to arrogance. |
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Post by Greyflower on Jun 24, 2006 0:58:58 GMT -5
The fact that BB tried to raise his self-esteem at the other people's expense (like with TetraShark) merely shows that he's got extremely low self-esteem. His complexes became evident from the ''More Ying…" thread brawl. MaWa's critique proved to be a most painful strike at his self-esteem; that's why it caused that sort of reaction. Frankly speaking, I feel somewhat sorry about the situation… Why do we usually banish such people instead of taking pity on them? I wish that my rather awkward try to support BB hadn't failed.
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Post by Libby on Jun 24, 2006 4:10:39 GMT -5
… Why do we usually banish such people instead of taking pity on them? I wish that my rather awkward try to support BB hadn't failed. Somehow I feel that BB's reaction to people 'taking pity' on him and his low self-esteem would provoke an equally vehement response. Few people are aware that they have low self-esteem... Thing is, I visit these boards to have interesting discussions, on all manner of topics, read/watch/enjoy the creative works of other members and generally have fun. My life is stressful enough without having to deal with the petty neuroses of transients who actually have no interest in the other members of the boards. However, your point about support is highly valid. Most of us here are very willing to support other members/friends who are going through rough patches...heaven knows a few have had some really bad ones and have found sharing things here cathartic and therapeutic, since the responses from others are in turns sympathetic, witty, helpful and caring. And we know that in turn we will be supported and so trust the other members. As far as I'm concerned, BB had nothing good to say about anyone, as demonstrated by the fact that every comment was negative. Isn't much of life all about give-and-take? We tend to make judgements about others based on their words and actions and how they relate to us. In forums, the only way you can judge is by the content and tone of the written word. People whose first posts are shouting in capital letters, blowing their own virtual trumpet, or hurling non-constructive criticism are unlikely to endear themselves to longer-standing members. |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 24, 2006 4:22:54 GMT -5
I've learned over many long years moderating the net in many ways, shapes and forms: you often take pity on a person, they stab you in the back. This is a facet of being online we can never change, you quickly learn to read a person on a forum and nine times out of ten you're right.
I tried to help someone like BB once and he got me banned for a forum, never again will I help /anyone/ like that who doesn't have a good word or a single piece of constructive feedback.
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 24, 2006 4:26:08 GMT -5
The same people that labelled me as the most pompous arrogant douchebag, ... These have obviously not met my father nor my eldest son. Confidence and self assurance does not automatically equate to arrogance. Another facet of this wonderful internet world, those with the loudest voice can say what the hell they want, regardless of someone elses' feelings. Action/Consequence don't matter when you think you're anonymous. Apart from the one time where a forum troll met a couple of people in a LanClubParty and starting bragging about how he was issuing death threats to this girl and her guy. They carried him out spitting blood and teeth, since the couple that he was threatening were at the table. Some kind of karmic justice |
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Post by mawa on Jun 24, 2006 4:57:09 GMT -5
Apart from the one time where a forum troll met a couple of people in a LanClubParty and starting bragging about how he was issuing death threats to this girl and her guy. They carried him out spitting blood and teeth, since the couple that he was threatening were at the table. Some kind of karmic justice No shit!  ;D *imagines such incident* Man, the irony of this situation just killed me. As for Brother Bishop: I'm starting to have mixed feelings about this case. To an extent I see ViolentMessiah's and Greyflower's point. Maybe banning the guy is indeed too radical. But that kind of people need a hint that such behavior ( belittling others in order to raise one's self esteem ) is not acceptable. Maybe there stands a chance that he will get it without the need for the admin to resort to ban him. If yes, that would be great. I do disagree with ViolentMessiah in the troll aspect: Maybe it's just me but for me a comment like: "I'm glad I could spark so much hate on these boards" in the YinYang thread is trollish. But again, maybe it's just me. Anyway, after some reconsidering, I'd say: for now, let's leave him. I sense that he won't come back here soon anyway, if at all. Anyway I think that, slowly, this discussion is becoming groundless. But if I am wrong i.e. if he comes back and will pull other stunts like those in the case threads, I won't have any scruples. |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jun 24, 2006 5:51:18 GMT -5
Agreed MaWa, especially the comment about 'hate' from BB. I think he's gone but I have a feeling he'll be back and probably proud at the 'discussion/attention' he's gotten. And yeah, you had to be there to witness the irony of that situation in full force I have a feeling that if this thread's run its course perhaps it's time to lock it? |
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Post by Greyflower on Jun 24, 2006 16:49:12 GMT -5
OK, let BB rest in peace. I find this topic rather unpleasant, too. Anyway, if he reads this thread planning to come back one day, he is aware of what we think about him and his behaviour. I hope he will be more careful next time. |
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Post by Aedh on Jun 27, 2006 15:01:43 GMT -5
And all the people said ... "Amen."
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Post by JenGe on Jun 27, 2006 19:50:17 GMT -5
AMEN!!!
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Post by luminous on Jul 24, 2006 19:15:48 GMT -5
`not too bad fotochops` sounds like a big compliment coming from him lol,pity tetra didn`t see it that way.
I write music and i used to get all angsty over anyones opinion of it,but not now really (unless a label exec is going `we need to change this`(i wish lol).
When i was well into music the slightest criticism really sent me on a downer,i really didn`t like going into studios they ended up changing the whole feel of the track it was incredibly stressful.
I can guess how someone feels when their work is criticized,its like your` baby` and you`re all vulnerable.After a while you become immune to praise/blame and thats when you can actually take criticisms on board and look for new ways to approach it,we`re always learning.
For this reason i don`t think bb should be banned,hopefully he`s learned a little tact(not likely as he`s a `say it as you see it type of person`) and yet considering some of the forums i`ve seen its pretty mild,more like handbags at dawn.;D
Someone start an `ati vs nvidia` thread,it`ll get ugly!
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;D *imagines such incident*