Mary and Preston's Wife

[devisun]

Okay, again, this might have been talked about before....but I have only been here a short time so lol...you just have to deal with it....besides, there may not have been a discussion on it before.

I was looking over the screencaps again on this site and others and noticed something.

Mary and Preston's wife seem to have the same similarities. I mean the longer, dark hair, and their facial structure seems to be very similiar.

Could Preston have been effected by Mary and her death so hard because he saw his late wife in her. Could he be trying to change the possible guilt he might now be feeling by saving Mary from incineration?

dev
(watches the movie way too much....)

[Rip]

Possibly. The way I saw it, on the day of Mary's execution Preston is watching the footage of his wife's incineration when he sees himself standing behind her as she walks away. The grief and guilt suddenly overwhelms him and he becomes determined not to stand by while someone he cares about goes to their death again.

[Xenia Onatopp- Bale]

Maybe. You have a point there, devisun and Rip.

[devisun]

Rip said:

Possibly. The way I saw it, on the day of Mary's execution Preston is watching the footage of his wife's incineration when he sees himself standing behind her as she walks away. The grief and guilt suddenly overwhelms him and he becomes determined not to stand by while someone he cares about goes to their death again.

I watched it for that particular scene today...and you are right. I think it just finally hit him what he did and how cold he was. I think if he hadn't at least tried to save Mary, even if it meant his life, he wouldn't have had much to live for anyway.

dev

[Rip]

To be honest, at first I thought he was watching Mary's execution and for some reason was seeing his things, seeing his face there. Don't know why, but I stand by my later theory.

[Stonewalker]

At first I thought he was just sort of hallucinating, too, and saw himself in one of the "bad guys" present, but when I watched it for the fourth time it dawned on me that he was watching the files of the execution of his wife. Which shows how stupid I am, because he actually tells the computer to play that file.

[fluffy]

Even though the scripts hint or say that Preston was in love with Mary, my feeling is that Mary was a sub for Viviana. They kinda melded together into one person.

For me, there was a softness of expression from Preston in the scene where Viviana is taken away. It's clear to me they loved each other. When Preston met Mary I don't think he knew the difference. Mary just triggered the loss in him again, this time, with feeling.

I guess I have never accepted that Preston "loved" Mary. I didn't see it in the movie. I saw attraction, and desire, but love? I think that's a moot point. Regardless of what even the director may have said.

[Aedh]

I think it's totally true what Fluffy said. At that point Preston realises that he really loved Vivianna ... it's just that Mary finally finished teaching him what love is ... the lesson that Vivianna had started. You also have to remember that Preston, in common with most Librians, is emotionally unequipped to deal with love. He has a little difficulty sorting out his feelings between Mary and Vivianna, I think.

[reveria]

I always thought the similarities between Mary and Viviana were there for a very specific purpose.

DuPont was setting Preston up - he anticipated that Mary would trigger Preston's underlying feelings for his wife, thus lead him straight into a trap.

As for Preston loving Mary or not... I'm not entirely sure. Viviana, I definitely do think so (and she clearly loved him), even though he's not aware of it at the time. Mary, however, is a good 10 years or so older than him, and I reckon she has a bit of a motherly aura to her as well. Not full on momma, but... she's just a bit out of his league, I think. And seeing how she was with Partridge, I don't think <i>she</i> felt more for Preston than deep sympathy and friendship (based on the movie, that is. Not the very different and rather blunt shooting script, where they kiss and all). Preston is struggling, confused and under a hell lot of pressure, so he probably doesn't quite know what he's doing, or what he is really feeling.

[Libby]

fluffy, Aedh and reveria...your comments really got me thinking here...I'd always considered Mary to be a 'catalyst'...that scene where he witnesses Mary sentencing, then replays Viviana's is quite telling.

His dream about Viviana and her arrest soft focuses on her face and her enigmatic smile...as if his subconscious was recognising some latent feelings (and this dream was after he killed Partridge...the start of the set-up...but before he missed the dose.) Even when he wakes up, still held by the dream, there's that glance at the empty bed which could be construed at being tinged with a kind of regret/loss.

Mary 10 years older...not too sure about that, since Preston is 30ish, I'd have put her about the same age and quite a bit younger when she met Partridge.

Whatever...this film still makes one think about relationships on all kinds of levels. Psychologically, do we have a kind of 'hardwired' visual idea of our ideal partner? Do people tend to go for the same 'type'? Some of my divorced friends hooked up with virtual clones of their first husbands/wives. Having been with the same man for 30 years now, I don't have an informed approach.

[Mirabilis]

libby said:

Whatever...this film still makes one think about relationships on all kinds of levels. Psychologically, do we have a kind of 'hardwired' visual idea of our ideal partner? Do people tend to go for the same 'type'? Some of my divorced friends hooked up with virtual clones of their first husbands/wives. Having been with the same man for 30 years now, I don't have an informed approach.

I agree...the film does give you a lot to ponder on....which is very healthy.

Speaking purely personally....I certainly never had a 'hardwired' visual concept of the ideal partner that I was aware of...and I'm glad about that. Thinking back on past relationships, including one ex-husband and another who was the father of my child...they couldn't have been any less alike! I'm pretty sure it differs anyway between the sexes, as males and females are very obviously 'wired' differently both on a biological and emotional level.

[30 years Libby? Impressive. May we all be so blessed. ]

[Gothicgds]

Agreed, Fluffy. Call me cynical, but I don't think Preston knew Mary well enough to love her. He knew she was a sense offender, she resembled his wife in many ways, plus there's the connection to Partridge. Sort of a double whammy of emotional association to people he lost abruptly and painfully.

The resemblence thing could be related to that too- if your relationship with someone comes to a natural end, however unpleasant, there's less trauma than if it's suddenly broken, especially by the death of one partner. The remaining partner may feel a need to find a "substitute" lover to ease the pain of the early loss by repeating the relationship without the earlier nasty end.

(Yes, me= psychology geek)

[trogdor]

Yes its doubtful if Preston "loved" Mary but as an emotional infant he undoubtedly felt more for her than he had (until he stopped doseing) been able to feel for anyone ... and isnt that a type of love?

[reveria]

libby said:

Mary 10 years older...not too sure about that, since Preston is 30ish, I'd have put her about the same age and quite a bit younger when she met Partridge.

that was a rough guess. I do think she looks older than him. and now that I've checked imdb, Emily Watson was born in 67, Christian Bale in 74. So okay, that's only seven years. I was never good at maths ;D

libby said:

Whatever...this film still makes one think about relationships on all kinds of levels. Psychologically, do we have a kind of 'hardwired' visual idea of our ideal partner? Do people tend to go for the same 'type'?

I've definitely got a type - tall, strong, ruggedly handsome, dark-haired. Basically a man visually resembling my dad (not in a creepy way!... I hope). It makes sense when you think about it. You learn behaviour patterns from your parents, and if they lead a good marriage, you want to be like them. Don't all little girls want to marry their father at one point? It's because you've observed he's a good man, hence you want exactly that.

We don't know anything about Preston's parents, but both Libby and I figured they must have been sense offenders and thus Preston has some subconscious emotional ties to them. His intuition must have come from somewhere. I once read that you never really forget a single thing that's happened to you in your life, even events from the very first childhood years (birth to about 3 years). What happens is that you forget in which little drawer in your brain you put those memories. They're there, you just can't access them because you misplaced them like you'd misplace your keys. Except for very brief flashes, or just a notion of familiarity, they're "forgotten", but they influence you subconsciously.

Therefore, if we assume Preston's parents (or maybe even just his mother, since I suppose mothers did most of the parenting) were off the dose and he had some early emotional development in the privacy of their home, that would be his original emotional trigger. I'd go as far as saying that his mother falls into the same type of woman as Viviana and Mary, which adds up with the wanting to marry someone similar to your father/mother theory. Preston 's subconscious associates "gentle, caring, dark haired woman" with feelings of love. When he's with Viviana, those feelings are suppressed, but then later on, Mary comes along and everything falls into place. Or at least that's how I'd explain it.

[Mirabilis]

reveria said:

I've definitely got a type - tall, strong, ruggedly handsome, dark-haired. Basically a man visually resembling my dad (not in a creepy way!... I hope). It makes sense when you think about it. You learn behavior patterns from your parents, and if they lead a good marriage, you want to be like them. Don't all little girls want to marry their father at one point? It's because you've observed he's a good man, hence you want exactly that.

Personally I would have to disagree with you there reveria.....my father (bless him!)......was never the 'type' that I would have wanted to marry......quite the opposite in fact! Must be my rebellious streak! *Chuckle*....and your type? Hmmm.....fits the description of about a zillion other young girls' idea of the perfect guy. [Don't mind me though.....I'm an older but not necessarily wiser bird ;D ]

[reveria]

mirabilis said:

Personally I would have to disagree with you there reveria.....my father (bless him!)......was never the 'type' that I would have wanted to marry......quite the opposite in fact! Must be my rebellious streak! *Chuckle*....and your type? Hmmm.....fits the description of about a zillion other young girls' idea of the perfect guy. [Don't mind me though.....I'm an older but not necessarily wiser bird ;D ]

I never said it works for everyone. I just know what work for me and the people I've spoken to

Admittedly, I got a bit creeped out once when my friend and I were watching Sharpe, and she said, "That guy (Sean Bean) totally looks like your dad." He DOESN'T! I don't have a daddy complex...

[reosan]

original script spoiler alert

I've always thought that Mary was "there" as Preston began his emotional journey, so of course he fell in love with her. And in a different way than with Viviana. She was his past & he felt Mary was going to be his future & that's why he ran to save her, as well as the cold-bloodedness realization.

I also thought, after reading the script, that it was just a bit much that Partridge, Preston & Jurgen all were in love with Mary, and I was glad that they didn't pursue that onscreen.

[Aedh]

mirabilis said:

reveria said:

I've definitely got a type - tall, strong, ruggedly handsome, dark-haired. Basically a man visually resembling my dad (not in a creepy way!... I hope). It makes sense when you think about it. You learn behavior patterns from your parents, and if they lead a good marriage, you want to be like them. Don't all little girls want to marry their father at one point? It's because you've observed he's a good man, hence you want exactly that.

Personally I would have to disagree with you there reveria.....my father (bless him!)......was never the 'type' that I would have wanted to marry......quite the opposite in fact! Must be my rebellious streak! *Chuckle*....and your type? Hmmm.....fits the description of about a zillion other young girls' idea of the perfect guy. [Don't mind me though.....I'm an older but not necessarily wiser bird ;D ]

Two observations here from my clinical experience and from schooling.

First of all, the idea that you would like to mate/marry someone not unlike your parents ... it's completely natural. We are hardwired to carry on certain values and priorities. It's how communities survive. It's less important to the gene pool whether you agree or disagree with your parents ... the point is that you have similar concerns.
A farmer's child may grow up to become a mechanic ... but he or she will still have a more fundamental awareness of nature and of the cycles of life than most other people. For example.

Second ... as far as the "ideal type" goes, that has been arrived at through many studies. Now we are talking about AVERAGES here, mind you ... what applies to the average does NOT apply to every individual. In fact, individual results always vary from the average.

The studies I read show that reveria's "type" is quite close to the average type of man that most women find appealing--or at least most acceptable--when it comes to fathering babies. "Tall dark and handsome" is a good start. The AVERAGE woman--AVERAGE!-- prefers that, and with fairly broad shoulders and narrow hips. The ONE strongest preference ran this way. The more a man's shoulders exceeded his hips, the more appealing it was. Shoulders and hips matching, or nearly so, and the appeal fell off sharply. It can be no coincidence that our Mr Bale is a textbook example of the physical type agreeable to more women than any other.

[Aedh]

reosan said:

original script spoiler alert

I also thought, after reading the script, that it was just a bit much that Partridge, Preston & Jurgen all were in love with Mary, and I was glad that they didn't pursue that onscreen.

Well it is a bit much in a script ... on the other hand, some women are "L.O.V.E. Magnetz." Again my clinical experience furnishes some remarkable examples, which you will just have to take my word for.

[Gothicgds]

aedh said:

The studies I read show that reveria's "type" is quite close to the average type of man that most women find appealing--or at least most acceptable--when it comes to fathering babies. "Tall dark and handsome" is a good start. The AVERAGE woman--AVERAGE!-- prefers that, and with fairly broad shoulders and narrow hips. The ONE strongest preference ran this way. The more a man's shoulders exceeded his hips, the more appealing it was. Shoulders and hips matching, or nearly so, and the appeal fell off sharply. It can be no coincidence that our Mr Bale is a textbook example of the physical type agreeable to more women than any other.

Well, there's me a weirdo again. (Shock.) I much prefer swimmer/martial artist types- I don't like guys with football player shoulders. But then, I'm not interested in making babies either. Christian is actually about the upper limit of muscularity that I like in a guy. Much bigger and I'm not interested.

(My "father figure"- my maternal grandfather- was big and broad-shouldered, with olive skin and short hair. I like slim men with medium or pale skin and long hair. Contrary? Me? Nah.)

I also don't like men to be too tall, but that's just because I'm short. (5'4", and I refuse to wear high heels just to kiss my boyfriend!) ;D


However, I agree with Libby that Preston's mother was probably much the same physical type as Viviana and Mary.

[Libby]

gothicgds said:

aedh said:

However, I agree with Libby that Preston's mother was probably much the same physical type as Viviana and Mary.

*checks levels on voddy bottle* Don't remember saying that! ;D Where did I say that? ;D

I think you mean reveria...

[Mirabilis]

libby said:

gothicgds said:

aedh said:

However, I agree with Libby that Preston's mother was probably much the same physical type as Viviana and Mary.

*checks levels on voddy bottle* Don't remember saying that! ;D Where did I say that? ;D

I think you mean reveria...

LOL...this thread really is a "couch trip"....fascinating. ;D

[reveria]

libby said:

I think you mean reveria...

yeah, I think so, too. the one time I actually said something smart, and I get discredited ;D

[Aedh]

reveria said:

Don't all little girls want to marry their father at one point? It's because you've observed he's a good man, hence you want exactly that.

What do you do when your Father is a good woman though?

[Mirabilis]

*Sound of someone whistling "I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay" wafts back on the breeze...*

[Gothicgds]

Libby, I will have you know there was absolutely no vodka involved.

...I'm just nuts.

(Though if you haven't already figured that out by now, you haven't been paying attention.)

Apologies, reveria.

Anyway, back to the discussion.