what the hell went wrong?

[Rymel]

ok, as some of you hopefully may know, i was one of the original few people who decided to take on development of a tangible, feasible firearms-based martial art. we got a decent amount of info, some on that thread and some off, but due to various circumstances most of us stopped developing it. we've also been unable to keep as close track of the boards as we used to.

well...this would be the first time back in a while and um...what the hell happened?! every single one of you are making the same stupid mistakes WE made! it's like nobody read the sticky at the very top of the forum! basing it off purely what you've seen in the movie, assuming it has to follow whatever edicts the movie made, basing it purely off previous martial arts styles, worrying about safety when common sense should prevail...you're all repeating history here! what happened to all the ingenuity? the drive to be original, to create something workable that wasn't just a rehashing of something previously done before? gun kata CANNOT exist as the movie did, and the sooner you accept that, the farther you'll go. it also does little good to base it off of existing arts since no existing martial arts gives respect to firearms of any sort, therefore there isn't any direct correlation to a prior style. yes, they have disarms. yes, krav maga is the closest thing to real world anti-gun techniques that see constant evolution. but that doesn't do us any good when we're trying to create something radically new, does it? we don't need a disarm, we need a kill shot. you shouldn't have to worry about disarming them if they're dead or dying. unconscious even. and even if you weren't shooting to kill, it's a little hard to do pa kua style disarms when you're holding two weapons. it also takes too much time. why am i gonna worry about the opponent's safety when i could just strike the tendon? have any of you even looked into melee firearms combat? or are you just preoccupied with how cool it would be to be able to dodge bullets and deal back twice the amount? what good is your gun after it's empty?

*exhales* look, i'm not flaming to flame. i'm flaming to bring back the old passion. the old inventiveness. not some rehash of our mistakes. or recreations based on x martial arts. it won't work that way. it won't get very far unless you're willing to look past all that. there are roots in the old martial arts but they're just that, roots. use those and work from that. and i'm not talking techniques. there aren't any old world weapons that resemble a gun, and there certainly aren't any techniques that were designed specifically for it. so maybe you should get to that instead.

screw the gunfight footage, screw forensic data. screw rote learning of things you haven't even cemented yet. you don't HAVE that. so work with what you've got and what you can get. there is no fluff if there is no essence.

[Rymel]

oh, and rather than just have an entire thread of yes-men or angry nuns...how bout we use this as a launching point for more constructive info? i'll start this with a question, and i only expect a numerical answer - how many hand strikes are there with a handgun? the elbow counts, butsince i said it it's a given. let's go!

and don't forget to ask constructive questions

[Rymel]

lovin the response. the answer's 8. how bout what strikes? betcha this won't get any answers either. so much for gun kata discussion.

[TrustKill]

time for the prodigal sons to return? yes.... yes i think so

::rubs hands together::

[Achilles]

Good post, get to the meat, movie = launching point.

now comes the development and training.

practice, practice.

[Rymel]

FAIL! already, jesus.

reread the post, then comment again once you've understood it. i thought i made that much clear already.

[TrustKill]

if by 'launching point' you mean the basis for the inspiration to create this little brainchild of ours then yes. its a stretch, i know.

-in case anyone does already know this, our gun kata will almost 98% positively have nothing to do with movie gun kata. actually its probably more like 100% but that extra 2 is a gimme incase something turns our similar.

[pyro]

well i can tell you what happened, real life gun kata based on the movie is imposible and to make it into a real life application would be useless, unless you had an appointment in the nether with some sense offenders.

now before anyone's veins start popping out, think about what i just said, im talking about exactly based on the movie. a variation of gun kata could be possible, but only practicle while playing for fun i.e. an airsoft game.

again, welcome back Rymel and Trustkill. due to my negative views on this, ill try and stay out of this development process as i did before, because i would love to be proven wrong

[Rymel]

heh i read it as you meant it to be read, pyro. of course movie based gun kata is impossible. we've crossed that path and decided that EQ was only the spark for the fire to develop a feasible firearms based martial art. it would only see severely limited use in the civilian sector, along the lines of self defense and personal growth, but i think it would be of particular value to law enforcement and military personnel. i could be wrong but i don't think police officers know of anything else to do after they've pulled out their weapons other than to fire. pistol whip at best. and aside from that, what are you gonna do if your guns are empty and you're in the middle of a close quarters combat situation? hide and hope they don't find you?

airsoft would appreciate a gun art tremendously imho. but since they're so similar to real firearms in form, it's a bit of a double standard to be gung ho for an airsoft gun martial art, but look down on it for real application, don't you think? i understand why you would look negatively on it, but it needs to be accepted that it may see use in a real world situation if you're going to accept it for airsoft. shaolin monks and other martial artists didn't teach their art to merely harm people now, did they? they accepted the possibility it would happen, because they knew that more people would benefit from it than cause harm. and while i can't say for sure, with the case of filipino martial arts, they've accepted that their world is a violent place, and feel the need to simply be prepared. just like modern equivalents, self defense included. i'd honestly prefer to have a city full of people proficient in a firearms art than a city with only a few. that means less people are inclined to do something DUMB, because someone next to him could stop him. i believe switzerland has a policy like that with their army, and that all who served must keep a fully automatic weapon with 2 loaded clips in their homes at all times. and they're not plagued by gun violence. so that says a lot, in my opinion.

you should join, your peaceful standpoint would probably help with the spiritual side of it all ;D but i forget exactly why you look so down upon it...

[Achilles]

hmmmmm.. strikes with a hand gun. many most of the carinal directions, forehand and reverse thats 32 already thrusts.... elbows pushing us into the 40s.... well lets go with lots....

[TrustKill]

we were thinking a little more basically than that. i can see how there are maybe 40+ variations, but there are a few less basic maneuvers from which most of the variations would come.

::shrugs::

rymel, i suppose we should post all the conclusions we've come to in our AIM conversations huh? that would sort of shed some light.

[GunFu]

Hi guys, sorry I haven't been part of this discussion but I've been on vacation. I don't know how much of Gun Sau would be relevant since GS is struictly a game based on the DuPont vs. Preston fight but I'm really interested to see where you go with this.

BTW we are also looking at ways to play the long-range Gun Kata style as a sport with modified Lazertag or airsoft guns.

Mike

[Rymel]

i'm curious as to those 40+ strikes though...i dont know if i want to post what we've learned, partially because of certain people we think might do something stupid and partially because of the slight fear that everything we've talked about will amount to little or nothing on paper, because it'll only sum up as a few sentences.

as a game i guess your gun sau is okay, but long range gun kata is an oxymoron. you may as well just call it a firefight. grammaton clerics were meant to be short to midrange crowd sweepers, if even that many people. but regardless of number it doesn't seem like they're supposed to operate outside of maybe 20 ft, and even that's a lot. i'd say 10 is their optimum range, 20-25 being movie limit. i don't remember them doing any shooting farther than that. i believe in real application these ranges are acceptable as well, but i've never fired a gun so um...achilles?

[Achilles]

in urban combat a majority of bullets are exchanged in range of ten feet and under. more distance in the open streets and stuff but indoors its up close and personal. Rymel is correct any farther than that and its falls in to the realm of the firefight.

[XShadowX]

Hello everyone I am new to this board and the thread. I have spent the past hour reading both of the Gun Kata topics that are stickied at the top, and let me say I appreciate what everyone is trying to do here.

However with that being said, I think the biggest problem is lack of organization combined with lack of content. For something that is just taking off like Gun Kata is, it is fine to talk theory until you are blue in the face.

Unless a set group of people can organize a "standard" form of base kata to work from all of the text found in the various forums are nothing more then the product of good brainstorming and passionate inspiriation.

The reason I think there needs to be a standard base from which to work from is quite simple: Teaching variety is fine and dandy once you have taught basic essential fundamental skill.

I believe someone in one of the two threads likened their idea to that of what Bruce Lee accomplished with Jeet Kune Do, while it is true that Bruce Lee pioneered an entire new way of training the martial arts, I highly doubt he would have been as effective without his prior training in Wing Chung.

Of course I am unaware of who the current team has available for being able to construct any good visual learning aides, such as the 3-d gun kata drawings I am sure we have all seen numerous times by now. I simply believe that such a base structure is necessary before any real progress can be made.

I will attempt to offer various insights where I can, as I have quite a bit of martial arts experience on my side. As well as a fairly decent amount of experience with shooting pistols.

As an aside, I would like to say something I have heard mentioned a few times throughout the previous threads. And that is people saying things along the lines of "You shouldn't practice this with intentions of using it for live fire combat" I think this is absolute nonsense as it defeats the point of the Martial Art in the first place.

What this mode of thinking stems from is quite frankly fear, as well as a certain lack of logical deduction. I think the mindset for something like this should be similar to how Ninjas where trained in Feudal Japan, they were trained to rid fear from their personality.

It is because of this characteristic of their mental make-up, they could do things with a level of clarity and focus far beyond what they would have been able to achieve had they "paused to think" or in otherwords "feared" what would happen as a result of their training.

The logical side of you should point to your chances of surviving any gun based encounter to begin with. If you are in a situation where you must draw a firearm due to someone else posing a threat with one of their own to your existence.

Which would you rather have? a clear mindset and focus and to a degree some level of advanced preparation? or the scenario that plays out in most gun fights, two foolish men start firing wildly and whichever gets lucky kills the other one first.

Having said that it is not my intention to advocate recklessness, but to give a better perspective on the developement of this blooming Martial Art.

[Achilles]

I automaticaly lose respect when i hear the term ninja uttered, the ninjas were consitered lower than filth in japanese society, assasins who killed with out honor. by using poison and the like.
If you had read the posts you would see that much groundwork and organization has been laid.

tell us some of the martial arts you are involved in.

and tell us what pistol experiance you have.

and how many gunfights have you been in?

you are 100% correct on the idea that this should be practiced and developed as a lethal art, as all martial arts should be.

make no mistake i am not discounting your opinion, and i am sure that you may have some valuable info to add, but make no mistake that just because you have not read it yet that no progress has been made

[XShadowX]

"I automaticaly lose respect when i hear the term ninja uttered, the ninjas were consitered lower than filth in japanese society, assasins who killed with out honor. by using poison and the like.
If you had read the posts you would see that much groundwork and organization has been laid."

Well you are entitled to have your own opinion of Ninjas, however the fact remains they got their job done. And you may want to do some history checking on them at some point, you would notice that a certain Emperor Tokugawa had Ninjas serve as his inner guardians often disguised as gardeners to approaching enemies only to be cut down in surprise.

Good enough for the Shogun? I would say not so much dirty and filthy. I have read the posts and if you had read my post you may have noted that I said "Real Progress", don't get me wrong as I mentioned earlier I appreciate what has been laid down, however I feel it's time to start doing some actual work.

"tell us some of the martial arts you are involved in.

and tell us what pistol experiance you have.

and how many gunfights have you been in?

you are 100% correct on the idea that this should be practiced and developed as a lethal art, as all martial arts should be."

Personally I have experience in: Catch Wrestling, Tai-jitsu, Jeet Kune Do concepts, and I have dabbled a little in Brazillian Ju Jitsu.

As to how many gunfights I have been in? by the sheer fact that I am talking to you now I would say 0.

My shooting experience however, is more or less casual target practice. Though I have been doing it since I was twelve years old when I got my first gun from my father.

"make no mistake i am not discounting your opinion, and i am sure that you may have some valuable info to add, but make no mistake that just because you have not read it yet that no progress has been made"

I realize your concern, however I am not attempting to discount what has been done. I look at what has been done already as a foundation, being familiar with "conceptual tactics": I myself understand that a certain degree of theory must be introduced in anything that is new.

However there is a difference between basic groundwork, and actual progress. And that is really all I was saying in my opening post, it wasn't at all meant to come off as inflammatory, if it seemed that way then my apologies.

PS: I think I should reword what it was I was attempting to say previously. And I blame my bad wording of it, overall what I am saying, is that as far as the theory things go, I don't see much I could add to it that would improve it anymore then it is now, you guys have done a great job laying the foundation for this project.

[GunFu]

Rymel said:

as a game i guess your gun sau is okay, but long range gun kata is an oxymoron. you may as well just call it a firefight. grammaton clerics were meant to be short to midrange crowd sweepers, if even that many people. but regardless of number it doesn't seem like they're supposed to operate outside of maybe 20 ft, and even that's a lot. i'd say 10 is their optimum range, 20-25 being movie limit. i don't remember them doing any shooting farther than that. i believe in real application these ranges are acceptable as well, but i've never fired a gun so um...achilles?

Sorry, I meant "long range" relative to Gun Sau which is played at point-blank range. We are looking at using Airsoft and/or our modified lazertag guns for this style and creating rules which encourage the type of movement seen in the movies. This is all still theory though, we are mostly focussed on Gun Sau right now.

GunFu

[Achilles]

I did not mean to insult. I just want to know what you have in mind.

[XShadowX]

Guys a good start for forming our gun kata would be to experiment with this program. www.curiouslabs.com/article/articleview/1050/1/450?sbss=450

This is probably one of the better programs I have seen as it works with a full 3-D human model. The body can be manipulated into any position, and if anyone could splurge for the full version you could actually save your work as you go, unfortuanatly that would cost a small fortune.

Right now I am trying to work on some preliminary katas, and the only real way to save the pictures is once you get the pose you want hit the Prt Scrn or Print Scrn button on your keyboard, then open your paint program if using Microsoft Windows Operating System, and from there under edit hit paste and it should come up.

[Rymel]

>Unless a set group of people can organize a "standard" form of base kata to work from all >of the text found in the various forums are nothing more then the product of good >brainstorming and passionate inspiriation.

The reason I think there needs to be a standard base from which to work from is quite simple: Teaching variety is fine and dandy once you have taught basic essential fundamental skill.

i agree with you that we need a standard, and we lack organization, but to be completely honest with you, all of our organization is in our own heads. obviously this is of no good to you guys, but we're working on it. the majority of our development unfolds via conversations, so it's hard to just 'lay it out'. also, the constant stream of people coming in and trying to debunk or play it out like the movie make us consider and reconsider whether or not it's even a good idea to put it down on paper. i guess a little of it also is a fear that all the grand ideas we have in our heads and logic which makes whatever we've come up feasible will seem so little and chaotic once it's written down formally. but let me tell you right now -- we don't have a single kata. and to be honest with you i'm not even trying to make one. forms are useless if you don't have the background information for them, and that's what we're worried about.

>I believe someone in one of the two threads likened their idea to that of what Bruce Lee >accomplished with Jeet Kune Do, while it is true that Bruce Lee pioneered an entire new way >of training the martial arts, I highly doubt he would have been as effective without his >prior training in Wing Chung.

that would be me that mentioned it, but i don't remember saying that i wasn't looking at other arts. the opposite is true, actually. but that doesn't even matter, because as i said before nothing previously done has anything remotely resembling a handgun, so it can only take us so far before we hit a roadblock. also, following a certain style too closely will also bring you to a roadblock. trustkill and now achilles know this already through personal conversation. we'll ride the wave but it can't take us very far before we've got to start walking on our own two feet.

>Of course I am unaware of who the current team has available for being able to construct >any good visual learning aides, such as the 3-d gun kata drawings I am sure we have all >seen numerous times by now. I simply believe that such a base structure is necessary before >any real progress can be made.

there isn't one. too much work for the two of us and not worth the returns when we were able to picture it in our heads. besides, out of what we have, it can be described in words. i'd worry about visualizing it after finishing something that requires it. but if you want to, you're welcome to =)

>I will attempt to offer various insights where I can, as I have quite a bit of martial arts >experience on my side. As well as a fairly decent amount of experience with shooting >pistols.

while it'll definitely help, don't stick too much by what you've learned from those if you intend to get very far developing. sport shooting is only standing still and hitting distant targets, i could be wrong but it doesn't seem to be able to translate very well to bent elbows, moving bodies and close quarters firearm combat.

it seems like you have a lot of experience in groundfighting styles (catch wrestling and brazilian jiujitsu) and close combat arts (JKD and taijutsu). groundfighting may not come in much handy in our case, but the jkd could give you some concept of how you'd fight melee while holding a pistol or two. but i warn you now, do NOT let them hold you to their respective styles, it's the one thing that'll sink you in this regard. i remember reading some ninjutsu books that were adapting techniques to the handgun. WHY? you're working WITH the gun, not FOR it. you can only adapt so much before you're stuck, and too much adaptation gets you in the rut of mimicking the given style you were copying. fatal to the development in my opinion. but still, it's always good to have some kind of basis.

>As an aside, I would like to say something I have heard mentioned a few times throughout >the previous threads. And that is people saying things along the lines of "You shouldn't >practice this with intentions of using it for live fire combat" I think this is absolute >nonsense as it defeats the point of the Martial Art in the first place.

you misunderstand that line, and our defense. we just dont want anyone going out and doing anything stupid, as is usually the case these days. and honestly, how do you shoot pistols and tell me you think we should use real ammunition? HOW would that work? do you just get another sparring partner if you shoot him? when we say live fire, we really mean real ammunition, as most people seem to think is good to do for god knows what. sim rounds and airsoft are fine, but as their names imply, they're not live per se.

and if you've read the 2 threads, you should know that i advocate a thorough ass kicking before squeezing off a single shot if you can get away with it. but if you can't, then you fire. it's all in the judgement in the end, but you know that, i hope. the point of the martial art is discipline with the firearm, not fire away.

>What this mode of thinking stems from is quite frankly fear, as well as a certain lack of >logical deduction. I think the mindset for something like this should be similar to how >Ninjas where trained in Feudal Japan, they were trained to rid fear from their personality.

>It is because of this characteristic of their mental make-up, they could do things with a >level of clarity and focus far beyond what they would have been able to achieve had they >"paused to think" or in otherwords "feared" what would happen as a result of their >training.

again a misunderstanding. if we feared getting hit in training we wouldn't talk about it in the first place. and like any kind of training you do it for the discipline, the proficiency and the confidence. once you're familiar with the weapon, the fear disappears. that's just how it works. basing this art off of feudal japan, while i see the merits, is kind of silly. what, i'm gonna commit seppuku with a handgun? but i see where you're gettin at, and fear is a major factor in performance in this art. but it shouldn't be so prominent it has to be emphasized. all that should come in time as you train.

>The logical side of you should point to your chances of surviving any gun based encounter >to begin with. If you are in a situation where you must draw a firearm due to someone else >posing a threat with one of their own to your existence.

that is true, but you're speaking as if you were a civilian. i don't see this art seeing much use or even exposure to the civilian sector beyond techniques for self defense against one, and maybe mildly using one. the real use would logically be in law enforcement and military, where if you're in there you're probably there to kill them anyway. drawing shouldn't be the question, it should already be drawn if you're going to enter a situation where others are armed. if you're a civilian i'd kind of wonder what you're doing in a place where you'd need to carry one at all, unless you're a gangster. in which case if drawing is of paramount importance i kind of see that as a style variation. the core concept seems to me that you'd already have it drawn. but that's just me.

>Which would you rather have? a clear mindset and focus and to a degree some level of >advanced preparation? or the scenario that plays out in most gun fights, two foolish men >start firing wildly and whichever gets lucky kills the other one first.

hopefully if you were to practice it at all, you wouldn't be panicking. actually, if you were practicing as a martial artist, you'd probably avoid the situation entirely. but if it arose, i'd hope the training keeps your mind focused.

>Having said that it is not my intention to advocate recklessness, but to give a better >perspective on the developement of this blooming Martial Art.

well taken. welcome to the thread.

and gunfu...once you hit firefight distances...WHY would you move like the movie? it just doesn't make any sense. move towards cover if you're that far apart, you're a big target in the open. if you're gonna imitate the movie, look at the hallway scene. half the scene was runing through and keeping his head low.

[GunFu]

[quote author=Rymel link=board=gunkata&thread=1105008162&start=20#1 date=1105790189
and gunfu...once you hit firefight distances...WHY would you move like the movie? it just doesn't make any sense. move towards cover if you're that far apart, you're a big target in the open. if you're gonna imitate the movie, look at the hallway scene. half the scene was runing through and keeping his head low.[/quote]

Hi Rymel, like I keep saying, our version is not supposed to be a real martial art. It is a fun martial sport or game inspired by the movie action. We are not trying to develop a realistic form of combat mostly because there are plenty of real combat handgun courses etc. already out there. Gun Sau is the close-combat (point blank range) version and we have been training in it for a bit over a month. It's good fun! Now we are thinking about a more elaborate version that actually requires players to move as in the movie (and as in the Matrix, etc.) by including XMA, Parkour and Tricking skills at the longer range. Like i said in another post we may use Airsoft guns for this version, otherwise the pump-action waterguns or modified lazerguns we're already using will do fine.

I understand that your approach is very different to ours, which is great, but there really isn't much point in comparing them because you are trying to create a real combat system and we are going the other way by developing a game. Hopefully we can all respect each other and maybe help each other out where we can

Thanks,

GunFu

[Achilles]

With all this talk about fear and the mental mindset of killing, there are 3 books that target this area, Acts of war, On Killing and the SAS mental endurance handbook, all really good you should check them out!

[XShadowX]

"again a misunderstanding. if we feared getting hit in training we wouldn't talk about it in the first place. and like any kind of training you do it for the discipline, the proficiency and the confidence. once you're familiar with the weapon, the fear disappears. that's just how it works. basing this art off of feudal japan, while i see the merits, is kind of silly. what, i'm gonna commit seppuku with a handgun? but i see where you're gettin at, and fear is a major factor in performance in this art. but it shouldn't be so prominent it has to be emphasized. all that should come in time as you train."

This is one thing you have misunderstood about my post. The lack of fear as a training tool in my statement was meant as a mental adjustment, it does not imply using live fire ammunition on a sparring partner.

I'm also not sure what you mean by basing the art off of Feudal Japan, in my statement I was merely letting you all know one of the training components ninja's used "during Feudal Japan".

I have no desire to base any of this off of that time period as it is impossible seeing how many of the weapons are so different from a gun that it would be just as you said quite silly.

And I do believe it should be emphasized at some point, or you end making the same mistake that many sport marital arts like Tae Kwon Do make. You tell your students what your teaching them, actually has real life application and while they feel safe and secure because of the wall that the instructor has built for them, the truth is the moment they take a good hit, they are filled with fear that their techniques will fail them.

"you misunderstand that line, and our defense. we just dont want anyone going out and doing anything stupid, as is usually the case these days. and honestly, how do you shoot pistols and tell me you think we should use real ammunition? HOW would that work? do you just get another sparring partner if you shoot him? when we say live fire, we really mean real ammunition, as most people seem to think is good to do for god knows what. sim rounds and airsoft are fine, but as their names imply, they're not live per se."

I have no idea where you pull this from, as I said in my first post. I do not advocate recklessness and doing drills with live fire ammunition would certainly be reckless.

At this point I'm wondering how your getting what your getting out my posts is working.

Also in response to all of the martial arts comments, I don't plan to use those styles as much of a focal point for anything I do here. Guns have very different natures then the human body, and other weapons and must be taught in a more respected and sufficient manner.

"well taken. welcome to the thread."

Thank you, I hope now that I have cleared up the misunderstandings we can get down to some work. By the way, has anyone else tried that program yet? I am having some success with it, though it can be awkward at times.

[ViolentMessiah]

XShadowX said:

"tell us some of the martial arts you are involved in.

and tell us what pistol experiance you have.

and how many gunfights have you been in?

you are 100% correct on the idea that this should be practiced and developed as a lethal art, as all martial arts should be."

XShadowX, you da' man this is exactly why i'm pretty much not getting involved in the gun kata development thread anymore, i just dont know the qualifications of anyone contributing ideas. so i'm just reading for now.

developing a Gun Kata is definately a worthy endeavor but i do think that people with real world experience are needed whenever firearms are brought into the equation.

thats just my opinion of course.

[XShadowX]

Thanks for the compliment ViolentMessiah but that was not originally posted by me. It was posted by Achilles, he was asking me those questions and I believe I responded in kind.

Though I agree with pretty much all of your post.

[ViolentMessiah]

oops, my mistake. well then Achilles gets props too. however i enjoyed reading both of you guys' posts. you both make excellent points.

[Achilles]

thanks for the props. I think it is important to find out if people have real world or theoretical experiance in the development. we should all sit down and tell what we know and build of eachothers strengths.

[ViolentMessiah]

Achilles said:

thanks for the props. I think it is important to find out if people have real world or theoretical experiance in the development. we should all sit down and tell what we know and build of eachothers strengths.

couldnt agree more.