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Post by GunFu on Dec 6, 2004 6:20:34 GMT -5
Hi eveyone, I'm new, big fan of the movie and have a fair bit of MA training. Been lurking and I have to say that i don't think the Gun Kata is that realistic (the part about predicting where the enemy will be, etc.) but I would like to develop the style shown in the Preston vs. Dupont fight. I had never seen anything like that in movies before except for standoff bits from John Woo films, etc. and that scene took it all to a new level! I think that it should be possible to develop a style based on close combat with handguns. We would need to look at trapping hands techniques from Wing Chun, Kali (hubud-lubud or ""chain of hands"), probably some Tai Chi pushing hands and also modern handgun defensive tactics. I can see this style being practiced with paintball or airsoft gear. What do you all think?
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Post by GunFu on Dec 6, 2004 6:50:13 GMT -5
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Post by GunFu on Dec 6, 2004 8:56:39 GMT -5
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Post by GunFu on Dec 6, 2004 20:39:32 GMT -5
OK, I tried some of this out with my brother today. Just garage stuff, but you gotta start somewhere. we both have about ten years MA training including some JKD concepts, Balintawak arnis and grappling. We used squirt guns - don't laugh, at close range the time it takes for a water stream to hit you is so close to bullet time that it doesn't make much difference. We started out by hooking up the VCR and watching the DuPont vs. Preston fight in slow motion and copying what they were doing. We know that that was Hollywood but we wanted to get a feel for the style. The first thing you notice is that thei style only really makes sense if you are only allowed to shoot each other in the face! A lot of the traps and sweeps they were doing passed the muzzle straight across their lower chest, stomach and legs and you can pretty much fire at will when that happens. Also you can just step or jump away from the other guy or shove them away, hold the pistol in close to your body and kill them quick. If they were really good at sticking and reading your moves then they might be able to keep contact move with you but it would take a whole lot of training. First thing we worked on was the classic Dupont/position, pistols in right hands with arms extended and crossed at the forearms. From here you feel like just trying to power through the other guys arm and get in the first shot but if you know anything about trapping hands it isn't that easy because they will just yield to your push or change angles. One of the big secrets in trapping range is to use your elbows like they are hands. You can deflect their arm long enough to get the upper hand and when you use both hands it gets interesting. we were moving slow because that's the best way to get into this stuff. If you move too fast straight away then you tense up and you can't read the other guy. We trained for about 2 hours and these were our conclusions The DuPont vs Preston fight was not that realistic but that style can be [played as a sparring match with rules including moving at half speed at least until you get good, no shots to the body, keep the gun arm extended or at least no holding the gun tight to your body (in other words you have to break just about every rule they give you in handgun class!!) You guys should try this especisally if you have some serious MA training, it's phat. We want to work on disarms too.
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Post by JenGe on Dec 7, 2004 8:21:19 GMT -5
Hi Gunfu & welcome to the boards. Those pictures & your comments are really interesting. I know very little about this side of things but just wanted to take the time to welcome you. Things have been a bit slow around here lately but some of the other fellows should wander in here at some point. I just didn't want you to feel ignored.
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Post by GunFu on Dec 7, 2004 15:15:42 GMT -5
Hi JenGe, thanks for that. Just did another GunKata trial - still wet ;D Part of the problem is that all you really have to do is turn your wrist a little bit to bring the muzzle into position so it's not really like chi sau where you have to keep your hand aligned with your arm for penetration. The wrist-turning trick would be harder with a real gun because of the kick. This afternoon we were trying to keep our shots into the kill-zone (face and heart) and we came up with the idea of a paper marker on the chest so if you get hit there you know you're dead We were also doing more disarms. These are real painful if you get your finger jammed and you will go down hard. It doesn't really fit with the Dupont vs Preston style but you see preston doing some cool disarms in on of the ther fights. We are putting together a basic system for GunKata: Quick-drawing Trapping range: parries, binds Disarms and locks Retention: keeping your own gun (counter-disarms)
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Post by GunFu on Dec 8, 2004 4:27:00 GMT -5
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Post by GunFu on Dec 8, 2004 12:24:17 GMT -5
OK, another GK session this morning. Watched the Dupont vs preston fight AGAIN in slow motion and counted all the times they could have killed or seriously wounded each other if they had been fighting for real - about 11 not counting close ups and other times when you can't really see where the muzzle is pointing. Like I said before, the problem is partly that in real life all you have to do is flex your wrist a bit from the forearm cross position and that will bring the muzzle into line and the dude is dead. or you can just pull your arm in tight to your body.
To do this style at trapping range you have to play it the way they were in the movie - 1 only shoot for the face 2 keep the gun arm extended most of the time 3 don't flex your wrist from the forearm cross.
Disarmss vs retentions
Disarms are partly about pain compliance and partly about balance control. Most gun dfsarms you see in MA assume that the BG doesn't know how weapon retention but for GunKata we have to assume that both guys know how to disarm AND how to retain which makes a more intetresting fight. It is hard not to try to force a lock but trust me if the other guy knows what he's doing he will use your force against you.
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Post by Darkamn on Dec 9, 2004 2:30:07 GMT -5
;D ;D I must say one thing first; EQ is the greatest movie ever made. The plot and the actor presentation is uniq. The best ever. Mr,Bale is supreme as the cleric. But now to the point. I wonder what kind of martial art that is combin i Eq? And I agree that it will be possibel to develop a Martial art based on close gun fithing.
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Post by GunFu on Dec 9, 2004 3:23:07 GMT -5
I saw on a websuite that Jim Vickers who was the stunt coordinator is a 4th dan balck belt in Gokui ( never heard of that style, Gokui usually means something like secrets or rules of training). He has advanced training in other styles as well. Its hard to say exactly which styles were combined for the movie. The solo kata looked Japanese but I think most of the individual moves were made up for the movie. The poses in the long-range fightfs could be from anywhere. The close combat stuff that I'm interested in is similar to Chi Sau (sticky hands) training from Wing Chun Kung Fu Hubud- lubud (chain of hands) from fillipino Kali, Arnis and escrima Tui Shau (pushing hands) from tai Chi Ki Chuan Do flow drills like I posted the mpg link to etc. Trapping styles all kind of work the same principles no matter where they come from.
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Post by JenGe on Dec 9, 2004 9:38:19 GMT -5
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Post by GunFu on Dec 9, 2004 16:52:47 GMT -5
Hi Jenge, thanks for the links. I had already seen the first one. Itried to find out more about Gokui but it doesn't turn up on Google. Maybe the writer of the article spelled it wrong BTW we are now calling this GUN SAU which is a made-up word combining Gun in English with Sau which is Chinese for Hand. Anyhow we had kind iof a brainstorm about the wrist turning problem. I don't know if I explained this well enough before but the problem is that iit's too easy to score form the Forearm Cross position if you can flex your wrist because that brings the muzzle into line so fast the fight is over before it got started. So we are now wearing wrist braces (the type used in Sk8ing and blading). Here is how to make a Gun Sauwrist brace: 1 Get a cople of right handed sk8ing wrist braces (very cheap from WalMart or wherever) 2 Remove the curved steel bar from the palm side of the brace so you can easily hold onto the gun handle 3 Cut a plastic ruler in half and slide half of the ruler into the slot on the back side of the brace over the plastic bar that is already there. That means that you can't flex your wrist back and your gun hand stays in alinment with your forearm. This makes a big difference and the fight is much more of a challenge because you really have to use good technique instead of just snapping quick shots to the face by bending your wrist. It works real well!!!! I am thinking about doing a Gun sau website, does anyone have any tips?
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Post by JenGe on Dec 9, 2004 20:59:16 GMT -5
I am thinking about doing a Gun sau website, does anyone have any tips? My suggestion is to start small & add as you grow. When I started with Freewebs it actually was FREE but as the site & hits has grown it does cost quite a bit. Most web hosting sites will usually ding you for "bandwidth." Watch out for that one because it can get expensive if you are not prepared but if you stay small that shouldn't be a problem.
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Post by GunFu on Dec 10, 2004 0:53:15 GMT -5
Hi Jenge, I did it! It is a Freeservers site and I think it's pretty good considering I have only set up one site before ;D Please let me know what you think. We have been going Guin Katas crazy and we have developed many new drills which are on the DRILLs page on the site. www.gunkata.freeservers.com ;D ;D
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Post by Darkamn on Dec 10, 2004 0:58:22 GMT -5
;D ;D Thos looking for info about Gokui check out this website www.marylandisshinkai.com/gokui.html Loots of ifo there. Pleas reply after checking it out. I think it`s somekind of Krat.... ;D
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Post by GunFu on Dec 10, 2004 1:11:47 GMT -5
The Karate style heer that page is talking about is Kempo. The Gokui are like the Rules of practicing Kempo, they are not a style by themselves. That's why I can't figure out why the inetrview said Jim Vickers did Gokui ... Have you seen my Gun Kata website? What do you think?
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Post by Darkamn on Dec 10, 2004 4:52:08 GMT -5
A impressive site I must say. I wonder, is there a belt system or is it expericenes that count`s? Mail me.I`m interested in learning more about Gun Sau and help with the development. Her in Norway many people are intrested in making some kind of club. I have some heay martial art expericenes. Sunds interesting? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by GunFu on Dec 10, 2004 5:02:25 GMT -5
Belt system? I hadn't even thought about that. I guess me and my brother are the grandmasters ;D Do you think a belt system would be a good idea? I dunno, maybe if it catches on we could do tournaments or something ...
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Post by GunFu on Dec 10, 2004 7:56:01 GMT -5
Actually my Dad would be the Great Grandmaster because he's been giving us a lot of ideas (he's a MA instructor and he likes EQ!)
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Post by GunFu on Dec 10, 2004 17:48:04 GMT -5
Today we picked up a couple of toy guns that fire little foam discs. The big advantage is that you can train indoors without getting yelled at ;D They probably shoot a tiny bit slower than squirt guns but at point blank range it doesn't make much difference, it's still all about keeping off-line or keeping the muzzle off your line because the discs are still too fast to dodge.
The problem with the disc guns is that they don't really hacve barrels which changes some disarms etc.We might be able to modify them or find another type of disc gun that has a barrel. Also the discs tend to jam when you turn the gun upside down. They are real cheap from ToysRUs or wherever. Once we habe done some more training with these I will put up some info on the GUN SAU site.
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Post by GunFu on Dec 11, 2004 5:16:59 GMT -5
OK more problems with the disc guns .Really it's the same problem because most Gun Sau moveemnts involve sweeping the gun upside down or sideways and when you do that with the disc guns the discs get jammed. I took one of them apart so now I know more than I ever wanted to about how disc guns work but I couldnt figure out how to keep the discs in position when the gun is upside down (tried rubber bands, springs etc.) I might try to find some better disc guns but I had a look on the Net and most of them seem to work the same way. The squirt guns work great but that means you can only train in the yard/garage/whatever.
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Post by skippythegator on Dec 13, 2004 2:04:15 GMT -5
Hi GunFu, just saw your site and it looks good - I don't suppose you have any videos of your drills? As you can see on this section of the board, lots of people have tried to get a gunkata thing going but I think you had more success than some of the others did
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Post by GunFu on Dec 13, 2004 2:29:15 GMT -5
I think it would be a lot harder to do the style used in the other fight scenes, the geometric predictions and stuff. It seems weird but it's easier to do this at close range because a lot of the moves are done by feel instead of having to see what the other guys doing. Also we can make rules like keeping the arm extended, you can only shoot for the face and chest, etc. We don';t have any vids yet but we arer getting some support from MA sites and people like the GUNS SAU idea. I think the best thing to do is just keep on using the squirt guns for training, hopefully get some airsoft gear later on but crap that stuff is expensive!! we would need to get facemasks, body armor, etc. Anyway we will do some vids as soon as we can but I don;t think I can put them on the GUN SAU site without paying for it
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