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Post by H2SO4 on Oct 16, 2004 12:12:44 GMT -5
SO that yellow stuff in those funny tubes suppresses emotions...good enough. But it turns out you're not allowed to have sex either!?!?! Relations with people of the opposite sex are not tolerated (we can see this when Brandt is accusing Preston of blah blah blah blah RELATIONS WITH A WOMAN!!! SENSE OFFENSE ITSELF!!!)
So then where would Libria get all its population from? In the intro we see that "those of us who survived...knew that man would never survive...a fourth..."
Seems you don't need a 4th WW to wipe everyone out. Just carry on using Prozium and no one can have children, causing decline of population and eventual diminishing of the Human Race.
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Post by JenGe on Oct 16, 2004 12:33:42 GMT -5
REDUNDANT TOPIC - SEE FAQ...Q. How do the people of Libria have children with limited emotions and why marriage?
A. Wimmer's comments... "It brings me to another small point that a number of people have brought up (so the gaff is mine) and that is the institution of marriage. ...this world was only maybe 30 years young and to my mind, this would mean that there would still be vestigial remnants of our own time. So, yes, birth is in vitro but with humans I don't think you can wipe the slate completely clean too abruptly, (the communists had to keep churches around for years, gradually eroding their power) so this shell of the family unit still existed (but, we can assume, wouldn't for much longer) kind of like certain traditions or sayings we have whose origins we no longer remember." (from CHUD Message Board)
I hope that you are not so young that I have to explain "in vitro" to you as well!!  |
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Post by H2SO4 on Oct 17, 2004 9:33:08 GMT -5
Yeah...but what about AFTER family life died out? What would they have done  |
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Post by JenGe on Oct 17, 2004 10:44:41 GMT -5
Yeah...but what about AFTER family life died out? What would they have done Write a fan fiction... This wanders into the realm of speculation since Wimmer chose to leave it open ended. The possibilities are numerless. |
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Post by Libby on Oct 17, 2004 11:22:30 GMT -5
Write a fan fiction... This wanders into the realm of speculation since Wimmer chose to leave it open ended. The possibilities are numerless. Take time to read the excellent fics by ClericWolf and JudasFm AshesTaking Sides |
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Post by H2SO4 on Oct 17, 2004 16:08:26 GMT -5
If clerics were picked out since birth, that would mean that Preston was picked out when he was born, meaning he'd have been on the dose in the whole duration of his life...
If so, then how would he have had kids? He'd have no emotion...no desire...unless the Grammaton Cleric "made" him have kids...
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Post by Libby on Oct 17, 2004 16:51:54 GMT -5
If clerics were picked out since birth, that would mean that Preston was picked out when he was born, meaning he'd have been on the dose in the whole duration of his life... If so, then how would he have had kids? He'd have no emotion...no desire...unless the Grammaton Cleric "made" him have kids... Look back at what Jen posted. She quoted KW as saying.. Preston wasn't necessarily picked out at birth...he could have been a couple of years old and could have experienced some real family life before his parents gave him over to the TG or were perhaps carted off and incinerated. It would be very difficult to sweep away all the elements of a family existence in one go. These things have to happen gradually. It wouldn't happen with Preston's generation but the TG were probably looking to the next...Robbie and Lisa. Their major problem would lie with the fact that although they have 'in vitro' whatever...they still seem to need mothers. Actually, I'm going to digress a little here... I'm not too sure whether the 'birth is in vitro' bit is getting a bit too 'Logan's Run' for me...conception, yes, but full foetal development? have to consider that a bit more... Anyway...I sometimes think it has parallels with the Vulcans. They replaced emotion with logic, but still had marriage and families. OK, it turned out that their methods for choosing a spouse weren't as logical as the outside world assumed but the premise is still there. Viviana would have been paired with Preston (not his or her choice) He would have made a 'donation' (may already have done so years before...we don't know)and the system took over from there. Emotions wouldn't really come into it...there's a whole thread devoted to emotions btw...it's responsibilty and duty that count...obeying Father's will |
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Post by JenGe on Oct 17, 2004 18:02:35 GMT -5
If clerics were picked out since birth, that would mean that Preston was picked out when he was born, meaning he'd have been on the dose in the whole duration of his life... There is a background story here for Preston that also didn't make it to the final cut... From Kurt Wimmer's comments @ CHUD.com"I know this doesn't count but I had originally had dialogue in that scene that conveyed that when Preston was an infant, Preston's PARENTS were burned during the Upheaval (when all this change was going down) for sense offense and, orphaned, he was taken and placed in the Cleric Monastery, where he was raised and trained by the Grammaton Monks (which is why he's SO darn good) This implied to me that, for one year of his life, he experienced the unencumbered love of parents for one unremembered year of his life - and that was the grain of sand that had lain smoldering inside him all these years and which the pearl he came to be had formed around. DuPont was all too aware of this background and that Preston was vulnerable because of it and, ironically, is the reason WHY he is the best of all the Grammaton Clerics - he can understand Sense Offenders and track them down because he, unknowingly, has the most empathy with them (and thus is DuPont's best bet to get a Trojan Horse inside them). But I cut it out because I thought the scene was dragging. Now, I kind of wish I'd left it in. Maybe in deleted scenes, but ...You know from all of your questions I really do think that you should take a look at the comments from Wimmer as well as the script. It really would help to clarify a lot for you because you certainly seem to be more than just casually interested. |
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Post by JenGe on Oct 17, 2004 18:17:29 GMT -5
Look back at what Jen posted. She quoted KW as saying.. I don't think that he understands what "in vitro" is. ;D (evil grin) |
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Post by Libby on Oct 18, 2004 6:37:05 GMT -5
I don't think that he understands what "in vitro" is. ;D (evil grin) Double evil grin ;D I knew I'd read that CHUD comment before but I didn't want to say for certain that Preston's parents were toast ( i miss things sometimes)...I wish I had your encyclopedic memory Jen! ;D |
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Post by JenGe on Oct 18, 2004 9:39:39 GMT -5
...I wish I had your encyclopedic memory Jen! ;D Yeah, well...I think that scene is also in the script I have on the site but I couldn't seem to find it yesterday. It certainly isn't where Wimmer says it should be. (The first meeting with Preston & DuPont.) |
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Post by H2SO4 on Oct 24, 2004 14:16:02 GMT -5
I'll read the commentary as soon as my exams are over...in about a month's time I just haven't had the time recently, which is why i had to resort to asking directly to those willing to answer  |
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Post by JenGe on Oct 24, 2004 14:51:13 GMT -5
I'll read the commentary as soon as my exams are over...in about a month's time I just haven't had the time recently, which is why i had to resort to asking directly to those willing to answer Well, maybe exams are more important than some commentary for a film...not in my world though... Looking forward to seeing what you have to say after you either listen to them or read it. |
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Murasaki
Resistance Member
Anyone who looks that stupid is posivitely the one... - Rhodes
Posts: 26
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Post by Murasaki on Nov 3, 2004 15:32:21 GMT -5
"This implied to me that, for one year of his life, he experienced the unencumbered love of parents for one unremembered year of his life - and that was the grain of sand that had lain smoldering inside him all these years"
I don´t know if you just forgot,and should I dare to say that Kurt too,that humans do feel, but there are people who don´t like to feel at all(or don´t show it). I know lots of persons who never met a father because their father haven´t love them or their mothers, and just dessapeared. So it´s possible to have children withou love, or just to keep the human race living(that´s not what I like to think, I´m just being realistic about it).
In other hand what you (and probably Kurt) forgot is that there´s one more important thing that makes us humans...free will. that I remember, Preston had free will to do whatever he wanted(serve the father or not) and other clerics had too( Sean Bean´s character just stopped to have Prozium because he wanted).
Most of people in Libria were afraid of Caos(or punishment) and that´s why they didn´t stopped to take prozium. But what would happen if a large group decide to do it? That´s just what happened on the movie.
So what decided the end of story wasn´t to feel or not to feel at all. Was that the Tetragrammatron haven´t found a way to control their worst enemy: FREE WILL.
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Post by JenGe on Nov 3, 2004 20:58:45 GMT -5
Most of people in Libria were afraid of Caos(or punishment) and that´s why they didn´t stopped to take prozium. Sorry, but I think it is you who has forgotten something. People in Libria did nothing out of being "afraid"(fear). That is an emotion. They were but drones in the hive doing their duty without feeling but possibly logic as Preston was. The key scene for this is when Preston confronts the Proprietor of the Freedom Reading Room... Everyone out. Now. I'm gonna ask you one more time. Errol Partridge -- What do you know about him?
I'm sure this must be some mis --
You're an offender.
I'm not.
No? Then why are you so scared of me? Now, you will tell me everything you know about Errol Partridge, or I will have a wagon come to take you to the Hall of Destruction for summary combustion. |
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Post by JenGe on Nov 3, 2004 21:35:52 GMT -5
You got me thinking about something because I do not think that Wimmer missed the idea of "free will" at all. I think that he was more using the perimeters of Libria's restrictions and how the people willingly gave up their freedoms to various organizations that actually require of us the same...religions, governments, societies, schools, MPAA... They almost all require us to follow a set of rules regardless of "free will", hypocrisy often of leaders, etc.
Do we willing capitulate desires, passion, emotion just for the sake of peace & safety?? I think the film asks each of us this question.
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Murasaki
Resistance Member
Anyone who looks that stupid is posivitely the one... - Rhodes
Posts: 26
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Post by Murasaki on Nov 4, 2004 17:55:34 GMT -5
THAT´S THE THING, JEN!
´cause I got very confused with this concept, after all, which one is more responsable, free will or emotions?
Or they should not be analysed separated?Are feelings and free will the same thing? Are they connected? How?
Why the sky is blue? Why the milk is white? Who came first, eggs or chicken?AAAAAAAhhh(just kidding )
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Post by Richard Hannah on Aug 13, 2005 18:37:36 GMT -5
I would think they could get sperm somehow and just impregnate the woman without sex.
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Post by JenGe on Aug 13, 2005 18:45:31 GMT -5
I would think they could get sperm somehow and just impregnate the woman without sex. It's called " in vitro." |
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Post by Richard Hannah on Aug 13, 2005 18:49:12 GMT -5
I would think they could get sperm somehow and just impregnate the woman without sex. It's called " in vitro." Yeah...Like I said they could just do that. |
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Post by ClericalError on Oct 15, 2005 7:34:14 GMT -5
Most of people in Libria were afraid of Caos(or punishment) and that´s why they didn´t stopped to take prozium. Sorry, but I think it is you who has forgotten something. People in Libria did nothing out of being "afraid"(fear). That is an emotion. They were but drones in the hive doing their duty without feeling but possibly logic as Preston was. I agree with this one. I mean, they take their Prozium because it's a habit, they take it because they have it drilled into them for pretty much their whole lifetime. Prozium is a God-send (or should that be Father-send?) because they can carry on living life as they've always known it. Even without emotion, I think they would be able to understand that everyone being killed is a bad thing. |
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Gypsiebelle
Sweeper
Dreamers walk in stardust
Posts: 77
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Post by Gypsiebelle on Sept 3, 2008 21:06:58 GMT -5
Okay...
I just read that whole thread on Population Control and the more of it that I read, the more confused I got. It was interesting, though, I'll say that much for it.
Gypsiebelle
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Post by Aedh on Sept 3, 2008 22:42:50 GMT -5
SO that yellow stuff in those funny tubes suppresses emotions...good enough. But it turns out you're not allowed to have sex either!?!?! Relations with people of the opposite sex are not tolerated (we can see this when Brandt is accusing Preston of blah blah blah blah RELATIONS WITH A WOMAN!!! SENSE OFFENSE ITSELF!!!) So then where would Libria get all its population from? In the intro we see that "those of us who survived...knew that man would never survive...a fourth..." Seems you don't need a 4th WW to wipe everyone out. Just carry on using Prozium and no one can have children, causing decline of population and eventual diminishing of the Human Race. I think the original question that began this thread started with a misunderstanding. When I was young, which was probably not too far from the time the writer, Mr Wimmer, was young, "seeing a woman" or "relations with a female" always was understood to exclude spouses. Personally I think what Brandt is talking about--when he says "relations with a female--sense crime itself--" isn't Preston's marriage to Vivianna. I mean, heck, Lisa is his daughter! As her dad, he has relations (in a parental way, to be sure) with a female right there--literally understood. So I don't believe that's it. No, I think Brandt's referring to Mary, with whom Preston had established an emotional bond (and to whom he was not married). Remember, he dashed off to try to save her from the furnace. Remember also that Brandt juxtaposed "relations with a female" to "consorting with sense-offenders," which Mary was. We've dealt with Prozium and sex elsewhere. As I said, I don't think being on Prozium excludes sex, unless you're over-dosing. And as I see Librian attitudes, even if you do feel for a sexual partner, the real crime is entertaining that feeling ... allowing it to affect your behaviour ... talking about it ... showing it--which is what Preston did with Mary. I think that's what got Brandt steamed. In other words, private sexual love would be a sort of 'venial sin' in the Librian catalogue of offences. It's a public display of affection that would be the 'mortal sin.' |
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