INDEX OF FREQUENT SUBJECTS (IFS)

[invisiblescientist]

Oct 17, 2010 17:35:51 GMT -5 Mirabilis said:

Oct 17, 2010 6:31:53 GMT -5 catalystleader said:

Because I believe in the state of Libria. I believe it to be superior to what we have today and I think that humanity would be better off, because emotions serve no useful purpose. Without emotions there would only be logic and discipline and with these humanity can progress greatly.

But progress toward what?

"Without love, without anger, without sorrow, breath is just a clock ticking."

Have you considered moving to North Korea? ;D

Excellent point. North Korea is currently the most oppressive country, where everything you say is recorded, and according to some defectors, the torture and execution methods in N. Korea are worse than the procedures in the Hall of Destruction. Some inmates in North Korean prisons are given arsenic and other toxic chemicals so that they slowly die vomiting blood.

Buy seriously, even Dupont appreciates art and nice furniture in his office.

[Aedh]

Yes, but of course North Korean society isn't based on logic and science, but on the cult of personality, which is emotion-driven. Perhaps a more suitable society would be Singapore, where everything is business. Not quite the technocratic paradise, but at least logical and rational. Failing that, there is Twin Oaks, Virginia.

[invisiblescientist]

True, but the cult of personality that rules North Korea ,is a very limited and highly structured form of emotion, and this crude "emotion" works especially because all other rival forms of emotion are rigorously suppressed (at least controlled or directed) by the state. So in this case the "emotion" component of the personality cult in North Korea actually benefits from the suppression (or at least control) of other emotions.

Separately, it can be said that Father also has a personality cult in Libria, even if all emotions are truly suppressed by prozium. Actually, the speeches of the Father were really very convincing, and I was very impressed when Father said on television that "it's an inescapable fact that mankind always united in pursuit of war, with infinitely greater purpose than he did in purpose of peace."

In retrospect, if there is a WW III with 90 % of humanity destroyed, I am sure that Father and his philosophy would be taken much more seriously than EQ, which might be far ahead of its time.

[clericjay]

Sometime it seems to me that some kind of personality cult is necessary for every well working totalitarian society, simply because this figure/idol, the suppressed people can look up to, is required by them. A sheep needs a shepherd and a sheep wants a shepherd.

What I mean is that people are (if concious or not) searching for someone leading them, may it be because they are too weak to find their way in life, too lazy (like e.g. Kant said) or want to serve a higher purpose, which is shown to them by this idol, this "fixing star".

It happens very quickly that masses follow someone, who seems to know, where the right path is going to. Where this person leads them to is up to him and his responsibility.
That effect is shown in cases of various religious leaders, kings and emperors and has been misused way too often (Hitler, Stalin, Kim Jong Il, Mao Zedong ...).
But all these people have been benefiting from this effect, the uncertainty people feel, when they realize (concious or not) that they are blind and don't see "the greater thing", though I am certain that there are a few, who have overcome this limitation, act fully responsible and concious... and sometimes they are lead as well...

Without a personal cult, a figure in front, a teacher (e.g. Father) an abstract system/ idea does not appeal to most of the people, because most of them cannot really imagine it.
But if there's someone, who seems to be trustworthy (or they have learned from early ages that this person is supposed to be...) and explains it to them, most will obey and follow...
not because they believe in the idea, only a small part really will...
but they will believe in the leader...

I guess it would have been very interesting, what would have happened to Hitler if he wouldn't have been able to start the war.

Comparing it with Spains fascist leader Franco, you can say that the whole system/cult build around him would have broke down soon after he died, simply because the leading figure, the fixing point was gone. After Franco's death democracy, even monarchy returned to Spain.

To avoid this, North Korea's dictator Kim Jong Il is initiating a new personal cult around his son Kim Jong Un as long as he still can, so that there would already be a new figure representing the state, if he'd die. And the Kim family would stay in charge.

And that's also why Dupont needed to hold the figure of Father alive, the people needed to belive that he was still there... because they would not have trusted Dupont most likely. ;D

I don't think that Hitler would have found someone, who would have been "believable"/"convincing" enough to take his place.
The system probably would have fallen soon after...
silently and completely without incidents... ;D

And another example: Every Exil-Cuban is waiting for the death of Castro, and most likely everything will change after his death, simply because the "shepherd", the fix point would have been gone.

Totalitarian systems rise and fall with their leading figures and therefore it's hard for them to survive more then one or two generations.
So there's always hope...

[Aedh]

I think it is worth remembering that Prozium is not meant to suppress all emotion, merely 'the dizzying highs and the abysmal lows.' Which calls to mind Stalin's phrase "Dizzy With Success," which heralded the great Soviet purges of the 1930s.

There is a good discussion of Prozium and emotion on this thread, which some have found helpful ...

"Are All Clerics Sense Offenders?"

[invisiblescientist]

Sometime it seems to me that some kind of personality cult is necessary for every well working totalitarian society, simply because this figure/idol, the suppressed people can look up to, is required by them. A sheep needs a shepherd and a sheep wants a shepherd.

Although a personality cult is a necessary condition for a totalitarian government to come to power, it is not sufficient by itself. A cataclysmic situation is necessary for such a group to gain power, such as the economic chaos that engulfed Germany as a result of the Versailles Treaty after WW I.

In 1919,as part of Versailles Treaty, England and France imposed on Germany a penalty of $31 billion dollars calculated according to the value of gold at that time. To understand how severe this penalty was, let's recall that during the 1930s, the entire money supply M2 in the United States was between $40 and $55 billion. Thus Germany was devastated, and was able to pay no more than 25 % of this sum. In fact, Germany finally collapsed in 1928 and was unable to continue the payments.

Now let me emphasize one of the leading causes of the crash of 1929 and the Great Depression in the United States. What did England and France do with the money they extracted from Germany? They sent most of that money to the United States for investments in the American financial markets after WW I, and this greatly fueled and exaggerated the financial speculation in America, leading to the Crash of 1929. But what most people don't remember is the fact that during the 1920s, the American banks who were indirectly receiving the British and French money (originally extracted from Germany) that was sent to the United States, were actually lending it back to Germany that needed it. But when the Great Depression started after the Crash of 1929, the American banks were no longer able to lend that same money back to Germany, and this further complicated the situation in Germany. Before the Great Depression, Germany was already devastated by the war reparations imposed by the Versailles Treaty, and thousands of German children were in danger of starving, but the economic collapse in America (indirectly worsened by the French and British financial manipulations) made the German economy far worse, making it possible for the Nazi party to gain power, because people became irrational and they became more vulnerable to magical thinking.

Although Hitler was a vegetarian and he also did not drink alcohol, we can be certain that most Nazis were celebrating the Crash of 1929 with champagne.

[Aedh]

We humans have a natural appetite for leadership. It stems from the past few million years spent as members of small, roving bands of hunter/gatherers dependent on both adaptibility and cohesion for survival. We like to have someone in charge that we feel is dependable and strong, but not brutal, cruel, or overwhelming--except perhaps toward our enemies. When times are good, that desire fades a bit if we feel generally safe. But let disaster or war strike, and we look to our leaders instantly. Personality cults arise in countries or societies which feel compassed about by enemies.

[catalystleader]

I don't necessarily believe that it would take a cataclysmic event to bring about a state such as Libria. I think it would only take the creation of a drug like Prozium. If you eliminate human emotion, then there is only logic and discipline. And then a state such as Libria will come arise due to the nature of logic itself. People would only need to take the drug once and then they would keep taking it, because it would be the logical decision.

Plus I'm not really sure you can compare Libria entirely to other totalitarian states. Most of the population of North Korea lives very poorly and has plenty of people starving to death. While Libria is infintely superior technologically to anything else and everyone lives a comfortable life where everything is provided for them. We don't even have that in the Western world. Libria is a much more highly evolved and superior society to any other in today's world.