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Post by JenGe on Mar 27, 2003 9:10:38 GMT -5
I found this today... look familiar??
[/url][/quote]
So do you think it was intentional or accidental on Wimmer's part to have the similarities and if so why?
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Cux
Sense Offender
Posts: 4
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Post by Cux on Mar 27, 2003 9:14:55 GMT -5
Try this link www.eliyah.com/tetragrm.htmlIn a society where ther is no God the establishement takes over and hence becomes the Tetragrammaton. Also I read years ago that in an early version of the bible the Tetragrammaton was the emobodiment of evil which arrives at the end of the world. Either way it's obviously biblical in reference.
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Post by JenGe on Mar 27, 2003 9:54:17 GMT -5
Yea, I've read some of the Tetragrammaton stuff but I find this symbol to be even more fascinating. I came across the fact that it is also referred to as "the Crusader's Cross."
The unfortunate thing is that so many people & critics on seeing the film automatically assume that the Tetragrammaton Symbol is in connection to the swastika and are often horrified by it. Yet IMHO that connection again is soooo supperficial like many of the other comparisons they rely on.
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Post by JenGe on Mar 27, 2003 16:19:41 GMT -5
Here is some more interesting stuff...
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Post by BMaloney on Mar 27, 2003 18:57:10 GMT -5
That's wacked. It's all I could think of to say..
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sam
Resistance Member
Posts: 10
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Post by sam on Apr 12, 2003 10:53:35 GMT -5
I think it was deliberate - although i'm at odds to think that anyone could possibly mistake it for the Nazi swastika.
I DID love the gun muzzle flashes where it showed the symbol again - and the continued symbolism all throughout the film. The architecture too was amazing.
Kewl
Spike
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Post by Sus on Apr 15, 2003 9:40:20 GMT -5
I remember noticing the muzzle flash things and thinking how cool it was.
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Post by BMaloney on Apr 15, 2003 16:32:59 GMT -5
The first time I noticed it was in the Nethers fight scene over the dog.. That's when I first caught a glimpse.. SO SCHWEET! lol.. 27 days children!
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Post by JenGe on Apr 16, 2003 9:45:59 GMT -5
That's less than 4 weeks right??
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Post by BMaloney on Apr 17, 2003 11:27:28 GMT -5
Well my math skills are a bit out of whack.. but 27 days is a day less than 4 weeks...
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Post by MrsPreston on Apr 28, 2003 10:34:55 GMT -5
I was watching Friends the other day, and couldn't believe my eyes , Lisa Kudrow had a top with the symbol on: Took me forever to find a pic too! It's from Season 9 episode 15 - TOWT Mugging - just if you're interested
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Post by JenGe on Apr 28, 2003 15:17:17 GMT -5
Hey Thanks!! Very interesting... we are surrounded by symbols we don't even know. If it hadn't been for EQ I certainly wouldn't have caught it or understood it. Maybe she's a Grammaton Cleric in disguise??
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Post by skippythegator on Apr 29, 2003 5:50:48 GMT -5
as far as I can remember - the swastika is a version of the gammadion; if i haven't gotten my wires crossed, it is also referred to as the crux gammada. It's also a symbol used in mysticism/magic, though I can't remember what properties it's supposed to have. Some sources posit that Hitler was heavily into mysticism, which influenced his choice of symbol. The original gammadion as used in heraldry had gentle curves instead of the sharp edges of the swastika. the gun flashes aren't the only places you can see the cross shape; for example, in the start of the film, when they first enter Libria, the 4 loudspeakers next to the flagpole have the same shape. The T-shaped window in Du Pont's office (where their first interview takes place) is echoed in the T-shaped back of his chair. speaking of symbolism, I'm not sure if someone else has brought it up, but the name Preston comes from the same root as "priest". I've wondered if the name John Preston has any connection with the mythical Prester John, but I haven't done any research on this. I also wonder (but have no proof) if Du Pont's name is related to "pontifex" as in the priests of ancient Rome, or "pontiff" as the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church is known. In "pontifex" and "pontiff" the root word "pont" means "bridge". Not sure if this is some wild coincidence; maybe I'm just reading too much into it
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Post by JenGe on Apr 29, 2003 10:08:53 GMT -5
*********Spoilers********** Hey skippythegator , Excellent thoughts!! I too was wondering about the name significances since I'm sure they are there but just not as obvious as those used in Matrix. I think you've hit something with DuPont's. I found this at www.dictionary.comAgain correlating his roll as "Father." Nice job!! On another religious tangent I posted this at IMDB this morning. It fits this thread so I wanted to add it as a possible discussion...
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Post by skippythegator on Apr 29, 2003 21:50:41 GMT -5
That's something I was wondering about as well - the Clerics' role as a state religion (sort of). At times it appeared to me that Wimmer was almost taking a shot at organized religion. I'm glad he didn't make it more obvious than that; it would have ruined the movie for me as I'm a Roman Catholic.
(Although I think that the subject of religion would be a good topic to tackle in a sequel, since it would make the film easier for mainstream audiences to relate to.)
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Post by JenGe on May 1, 2003 6:20:32 GMT -5
This is actually a re-edit post I made on CHUD in January
Being a member of an organized religion myself (not Catholic) I found much I could identify with in Equilibrium. When DuPont tells Preston that "its not the message that's important but our obedience to it," it was like hearing [an echo]. I've heard this exact thing countless times in my own religion from local leaders and members. The questioning of faith as well... Oppression [and force] will never lead to faith.
On a side note I have always loved and identified with this line from Ladyhawke...
"Sir, the truth is, I talk to God all the time, and, no offense, but he never mentioned you." ;D
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Ark
Resistance Member
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams
Posts: 40
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Post by Ark on May 9, 2003 10:58:18 GMT -5
There are much odd things in film...
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Post by ExtraInEquilibrium on Jun 1, 2003 22:15:25 GMT -5
I'd like to take this moment to clear a few things up.
First of all, the Tetragrammaton is NOT evil. In fact, it is the embodiment of holiness.
Tetra[four] and grammaton[letters or characters as part of a language] are the Four Holy Letters: JHVH or YHWH, as the case may be.
JHVH applies to Jehovah, taken without vowels, or YHWH applies to Yahweh, also taken without vowels.
This entire thing is applicable in that the government is basically God and that their word is law. Also, owing to the fact that the Clerics in Equilibrium apply to God's warriors.
Clerics were once ordained priests who took to sword in order to rid the world of heretics.
They are basically doing "God"'s work in the movie.
The cross, as it would be, makes sense, in that it is duly noted that YHWH could be the tetragrammaton we're looking for.
As Jerusalem is the promised land, so may be Equilibrium.
I found skippythegator's replies intriguing and so I've decided to commit my thoughts.
'Pont' meaning bridge, may be used in reference that he is the 'bridge' between God[the Father] and the people of Equilibrium and also that DuPont is the Pontifex Maximus, or the Supreme Priest, in other words.
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Post by skippythegator on Jun 2, 2003 1:56:26 GMT -5
thanks ExtraInEquilibrium actually another rough translation would be "path" or "way" (if I haven't gotten my wires crossed) I think I forgot to mention - when the sweeper team confronts Preston in the Nether, when he's trying to hide the dog - the visor of squad leader's motorcycle helmet also slides open in a T-shape. nice touch makes me wonder about the use of the word "tetra" meaning "four". What if there are four cities, of which Libria is just one? then we could have EQ 2, 3 and 4
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Post by Dude on Jun 2, 2003 4:49:03 GMT -5
If I'm not mistaken, the "T" cross displayed in the movie was also a symbol used by the German Teutonic Order (Knights), which is believed to be founded around 1190–91.
Peace
Dude
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Post by ExtraInEquilibrium on Jun 2, 2003 5:52:53 GMT -5
The German Teutonic Order of Knights were also Clerics.
But I believe, the 'T', as you refer to it, in DuPont's office is not really a 'T'. I was thinking that the Cross of Jerusalem was placed on the outside of the building, and the top section[the 'T'] was built to be a window.
I'm not sure, though.
It would make sense for the Teutonic Cross to be there, I suppose, what with all the Clerical allegories.
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Post by skippythegator on Jun 2, 2003 6:24:29 GMT -5
no, in the first part of the film - when the camera zooms up the side of Cleric HQ, just before Preston's first interview with DuPont - they show it as a T-shaped window.
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Post by JenGe on Jun 2, 2003 7:18:14 GMT -5
But I believe, the 'T', as you refer to it, in DuPont's office is not really a 'T'. ... Actually, Wimmer refers to it as a "T" on the commentary track of the DVD. I believe he calls it the Tetragrammaton "T" and I'm sure it has several symbolic meanings besides the obvious ones. You can also see in on the back wall during the "Hall" shootout as well as other places throughout the film.
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Post by ExtraInEquilibrium on Jun 2, 2003 12:37:49 GMT -5
Actually, Wimmer refers to it as a "T" on the commentary track of the DVD. I believe he calls it the Tetragrammaton "T" and I'm sure it has several symbolic meanings besides the obvious ones. You can also see in on the back wall during the "Hall" shootout as well as other places throughout the film. Hrm, interesting. I guess it was just used in reference to the Teutons' clerics.
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Post by JenGe on Jun 2, 2003 13:56:06 GMT -5
Hrm, interesting. I guess it was just used in reference to the Teutons' clerics. The rabbit hole goes deeper....
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Post by ExtraInEquilibrium on Jun 3, 2003 21:14:43 GMT -5
The rabbit hole goes deeper.... ?
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Post by JenGe on Jun 3, 2003 22:02:59 GMT -5
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Post by skippythegator on Jun 3, 2003 22:11:16 GMT -5
you know what else the T reminds me of?
An 80s movie...The Keep.
with all those T-shaped objects in the walls...
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Post by ExtraInEquilibrium on Jun 4, 2003 0:05:48 GMT -5
JenGe, interesting.
I think the shape is coincidental.
The entire thing is a lunar calendor, judging from the looks of it, and of course the French on it, declaring different states of the moon.
What does the Cross of Jerusalem have to do with the shape, unless it's the obvious that I'm thinking of. Because of the obvious connotations between religion and the arrangement of Luna.
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Post by JenGe on Jun 4, 2003 8:19:52 GMT -5
I think at this point I'll allow you to mull on it a bit except to point out the "all seeing eye" at the center.
There are many hidden references in EQ both historically and those of pop culture. Part of the fun of the film is the discovery and deciphering those. I wouldn't want to make it easy especially since Wimmer obviously didn't.
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