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Post by Trinity on Sept 20, 2003 20:26:09 GMT -5
I'm in total agreeance here, as well. To put a nightcap on this issue, we should really find the editor. We should bring him here and show him that he has been the catalyst to many a sleepless night, filled with horrors and nightmares of the rasping sound of clips being slid into the pistol grip. The background is filled with murmurs and casual conversation too low to make out. Concentrating, you can hear the words "gun swap, gun swap, GUN SWAP, GUN SWAP..!!" Waking up in a cold sweat, you tear at the window covering to see the welcoming rays of the morning sun, but, oh no.......you are treated to reruns of the scenes where the gun swap might have taken place...........fast forward, rewind, slow-motion, back to rewind.......AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGHH!!!!! Oh yeah, I wanna hurt the editor just a little ;D Cool. Oh, so cool. What writing. Yeah, I heard that the original editor that KW had wanted to use left to do another film, and that he had to use a novice editor and work with him to edit the film, because that editor had not actually edited a film previously. That editor is our man! Let's get him!!! As for this topic, ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
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Post by shamus on Sept 23, 2003 12:05:14 GMT -5
Hi all Equilibrium fans! Equilibrium has just hit the shelves here in Finland on DVD and I must say I've loved this film from the first time I saw it. Its is a true classic ;D Ok this is my first post here and the reason I'm posting is that I stumbled to these pages when searching sites about Equilibrium in the internet and after reading this forum topic I got insanely obsessed to get plot this right in my head (I did not even notice any flaws in the gun swap before getting aware about it in this forum) . I'm not quite sure if this topic has been closed for good but I'd just liked to post my own theory so please grand clerics dont get mad Ok so my theory is that the clerics have teir one personal gun that can be tracked (just one). It does not make any difference what ammunition or clip is being used in the gun because the gun can only be tracked by the marks the barrel groove leaves in the bullets being shot from it (you guys watched CSI right? In this theory a cleric has only one personal trackable gun and the second sidearm is not tracked in anyway because there are no tests been done on what kind of markings the secondary gun leaves to the bullets shot from it. Before the dog scene at the car Preston loads a gun and gives it to Brandt and when walking off the screen he loads the other gun. It is this where Preston gives his own personal gun to Brandt and now Preston has Brandt's personal gun. When in the nethers Preston shoots the sweepers with Brandt's gun and his own secondary gun (that is not tracked) everything points to Brandt after checking the bullets found from the sweepers. When Preston uses the guns as hammers to beat the sweepers he has his own clips in both of the guns (Brandt's personal gun and Prestons own secondary gun). You can check this frame by frame when Preston has beaten the sweapers with the guns when the nails in the clips retract. The frame where you can see 'Preston' reading in the bottom of the clip of the gun in his right hand is mirrored for some reason so you have to get a screen grab of the frame and mirror it back. There are no markings in the bottom of the clip of the gun that Preston has in his left hand (or very faint markings as I've checked frame by frame) and could it be that the clerics only use their named clips with the primary gun? It is not clear why Preston does not shoot the sweepers before the execiton scene but maybe it is because he does not want any other kills to be done with Brandt's gun when Brandt is raiding the sense offenders with the sweepers who could back him up being with them all the time and not in the crime scene. Now in the execution scene when Brandt offers his *own* gun to Preston to shoot the sense offenders, Preston takes the gun with his right hand and the uses his left hand to manipulate the gun safety trigger and eventually gives the gun in his left hand to Brandt. This is when Preston gives Brandt his personal gun back and Preston gets his own personal gun back which is still in his right hand. The reason why Brandt has the gun with the clip reading 'Preston' in the scene where he is found guilty for the sweeper kills in the nethers is that when Preston gives Brent his personal gun back in the execution scene he has been using it with his own clips as for some time from the beginning when he loaded his own clip to Brendt's gun in the car gun swap scene. Brandt obviously did not notise that he had Preston's clip in his gun because he did not shoot any rounds with the gun after he got his own gun back in the execution scene. Ok hopefully this would fill the holes and give a rest to the enigma and we can all say wow this is a good movie and enjoy it so that there are no plot holes ;D
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Post by JenGe on Sept 23, 2003 12:43:34 GMT -5
Wow!! That quite a first post shamus...you got my head all buzzing. Anyway, welcome...its nice to see a fan from Finland here. I think you are the first.
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Post by Giusy on Sept 23, 2003 16:30:56 GMT -5
Hi Shamus... and welcome to "EQ" world.... (any similarity to other movies is purely coincidental..... ;D)... Well.... your explanation is quite interesting.... but there is a flaw, in my opinion...... How Preston could have known that Brandt would have given back his own (Preston's) gun? And...... if Preston made the gun swap "before" the dog scene..... that would mean that he already knew he will have to kill the sweepers...... and that is quite impossible......... Anyway, before reopening any other issues..... I think we should have to accept the plot just like it is......
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shamus
Resistance Member
Posts: 55
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Post by shamus on Sept 24, 2003 8:11:28 GMT -5
You got some good points there Giusy This is all just speculation and the reason why I stated to run this thing in my head is that when I started to think about it I could not have any explination about how they could have traced the sweeper kills in the nethers to Brandt's gun if Preston only gives his own gun to him at the execution scene. That just does not make any sence and this bothered me very much. If Preston has being using his own gun to kill the sweepers how does it point to Brend's if you just hand him the murder weapon? This is why I came up whit this theory of mine to put the gun to the scene and have some way of tracking it to Brandt. Preston had stated that he can put him self in to the other persons position and sence what the other person is thinking or feeling and he has senced that Brand is not to be trusted in the first place and because of this he changed the guns in the car hood scene. Ok this is not in anyway water proof as you pointed that Preston could not have in anyway been sure that he ever would of have a chance to give the gun back to him and he could of not forseen that he will be forced to a situation where he would have kill some sweepers with Brandt’s gun. Or is the plot intentioned to go such as that there has never been any tests to the guns of the clerics before and that the guns just had happened to be demanded to be tested after Preston gives his weapon to Brandt at the execution scene (just some point in the murder investigations that would have required for all of the clerics to handover their guns to be tested) and because Brandt had the murder weapon at the time of the tests it was logged that the gun that fired the bullets that killed the sweepers was Brandt’s and the results of the tests would have come available when Brandt had arrested Preston and brought him to DuPont. Its a shame that the scandinavian version of the DVD does not contain the commentary track of the director Kurt Wimmer What does he comment in the scene where Brandt notices that his gun has been changed and he is taken away for combustion?
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Post by Trinity on Sept 24, 2003 12:21:31 GMT -5
Its a shame that the scandinavian version of the DVD does not contain the commentary track of the director Kurt Wimmer What does he comment in the scene where Brandt notices that his gun has been changed and he is taken away for combustion? Hi, shamus. GREAT avatar! That's one of the best I've seen. Unfortunately, to my knowledge and memory, the Commentaries on the US EQ DVD do not refer to that scene where Brandt is being led away. I was hoping Kurt would comment on that, too. I think either they should have changed the editing and shown Brandt flash back to the hood-of-the-car scene; or we can just assume that they will tell Preston anything he wants to hear because they were setting him up the whole time. Okay, I'm done with this topic.
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shamus
Resistance Member
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Post by shamus on Sept 24, 2003 13:03:33 GMT -5
Hi, shamus. GREAT avatar! That's one of the best I've seen. Unfortunately, to my knowledge and memory, the Commentaries on the US EQ DVD do not refer to that scene where Brandt is being led away. I was hoping Kurt would comment on that, too. I think either they should have changed the editing and shown Brandt flash back to the hood-of-the-car scene; or we can just assume that they will tell Preston anything he wants to hear because they were setting him up the whole time. Okay, I'm done with this topic. Hi Trinity, and thanks ;D Its a shame that he did not comment about the subject on the commentary track, but hey I'm still happy because I could unload the fuzz that this topic had created in my head
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Post by Giusy on Sept 24, 2003 13:18:51 GMT -5
I think either they should have changed the editing and shown Brandt flash back to the hood-of-the-car scene; or we can just assume that they will tell Preston anything he wants to hear because they were setting him up the whole time. Okay, I'm done with this topic. Uhm.... I could agree with you about the editing change (in fact there is another flashback version in the Wimmer's Screenplay).... but I'm not so sure about the second option, because in the interrogatory scene Preston shown to be VERY self-confident of his actions.... like HE was setting Brandt up.... Anyway, I think that the only way to solve this puzzle would be to put Wimmer uder arrest and questioning him..... ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Trinity on Sept 24, 2003 17:42:48 GMT -5
Uhm.... I could agree with you about the editing change (in fact there is another flashback version in the Wimmer's Screenplay).... but I'm not so sure about the second option, because in the interrogatory scene Preston shown to be VERY self-confident of his actions.... like HE was setting Brandt up.... Anyway, I think that the only way to solve this puzzle would be to put Wimmer uder arrest and questioning him..... ;D ;D ;D Where Preston says, "I promised to bring you that man. And I have." That's the part you are referring to, right? Yeah, you're right. It does appear that Preston is sure of himself here. L.O.L.! Good call, Giusy. Yes. "Mr. Wimmer, this is a lawful entry. We have a warrant for your arrest!"
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Post by Trinity on Sept 24, 2003 17:50:53 GMT -5
Hi Trinity, and thanks ;D Its a shame that he did not comment about the subject on the commentary track, but hey I'm still happy because I could unload the fuzz that this topic had created in my head Sure, Shamus. You have good taste. Yeah, I was so hoping KW would comment on that gun swap. But I'm glad you feel better. Unload away! ;D
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Post by Giusy on Sept 25, 2003 2:16:00 GMT -5
Where Preston says, "I promised to bring you that man. And I have." That's the part you are referring to, right? Yeah, you're right. It does appear that Preston is sure of himself here. Yes Trinity....... exactly that part!! [/quote] L.O.L.! Good call, Giusy. Yes. "Mr. Wimmer, this is a lawful entry. We have a warrant for your arrest!" [/quote] He he.... Watch out Wimmer...... If you try to show up on these boards you wouldn't manage to escape so easily.... ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Trinity on Sept 25, 2003 19:44:04 GMT -5
He he.... Watch out Wimmer...... If you try to show up on these boards you wouldn't manage to escape so easily.... ;D ;D ;D L.O.L.!!! Very true...
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Post by BMaloney on Sept 25, 2003 20:40:48 GMT -5
I have a preposition for you! Let's rig this cursed topic with explosives and ANNIHILATE it. It still perplexes me even to this day, months after when I first posted here! AHHH! Trauma...
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Post by Cleric Alf on Oct 6, 2003 17:50:07 GMT -5
Hi, i just bought EQ today on DVD. It's the first time i have seen it. I know, i know but i had no money to see it at the cinema. I thought the movie was fanastic and came across this disscussion whilst looking at other EQ sites. I was intregued by this disscusion and wanted to find out what it was all about.
Im sorry for bringing this back up.
I have read all the disscusion and read the script in the areas in question as well as listening to the directors commentary and ther producers commentary. I thought with it being an english DVD it may differ from the USA DVD.
Now in the script before the dogs when they are at the car it clearly states that Preston picks Brandt's gun of the hood and passes it to him, this can be seen in the movie. Now seen as the movie never states what part of the gun holds the clericks Id we can only theorise. In the script it does state that the flash back with Dupont and Brandt and the "twist" is of the car scene not the one used in the movie, as we are all well aware. It doesnt , however, mention any scene involving the supposed "switch". It mearly explains that Preston witnesses the clean up. Are you with me so far, good, then i'll carry on.
I have listend to the commentary on the DVD and it is useless on all three strategic scenes. The car scene, the "gun swapping" scene and the "twist" scene (Brandt realising his gun had been swapped). It does however state that the producer edited the "twist" scene 5 times due to bad audience response of it in pre screening. The 5th time the audience applauded so it was left.
My theory is the "swap" happend at the car scene as in the script. The "gun swapping" scene was written in for unknown reasons, probably to help with the understanding that members of the resistance would sacrifice themselves for the cause (member nodding to Preston to not attack and let it go) . And the "twist" scene was re-written because it was more visualy understandable that the swap happend with the "gun swapping" scene then the car. It worked for me first time.
So to conclude the script was right but the after edit was better to understand, no real flaw in the story, we'll never know how they can tie a clerick to his gun and i have used far to many " " in this large comment.
I'm sorry for bringing this up, AGAIN, but now lets all sit back and enjoy the movie for what it really is. A stunning piece of cinematography.
Clerick Alf
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Post by JenGe on Oct 7, 2003 3:27:55 GMT -5
Im sorry for bringing this back up. No worries about bringing this topic back up. I suspect that it'll be discussed for years to come. Just thank you for not starting ANOTHER new thread about it. You also have brought up some excellent points that have not covered before.
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Post by Trinity on Oct 7, 2003 19:50:11 GMT -5
Im sorry for bringing this back up. I have read all the disscusion and read the script in the areas in question as well as listening to the directors commentary and ther producers commentary. I thought with it being an english DVD it may differ from the USA DVD. Now in the script before the dogs when they are at the car it clearly states that Preston picks Brandt's gun of the hood and passes it to him, this can be seen in the movie. Now seen as the movie never states what part of the gun holds the clericks Id we can only theorise. In the script it does state that the flash back with Dupont and Brandt and the "twist" is of the car scene not the one used in the movie, as we are all well aware. It doesnt , however, mention any scene involving the supposed "switch". It mearly explains that Preston witnesses the clean up. Are you with me so far, good, then i'll carry on. I have listend to the commentary on the DVD and it is useless on all three strategic scenes. The car scene, the "gun swapping" scene and the "twist" scene (Brandt realising his gun had been swapped). It does however state that the producer edited the "twist" scene 5 times due to bad audience response of it in pre screening. The 5th time the audience applauded so it was left. My theory is the "swap" happend at the car scene as in the script. The "gun swapping" scene was written in for unknown reasons, probably to help with the understanding that members of the resistance would sacrifice themselves for the cause (member nodding to Preston to not attack and let it go) . And the "twist" scene was re-written because it was more visualy understandable that the swap happend with the "gun swapping" scene then the car. It worked for me first time. So to conclude the script was right but the after edit was better to understand, no real flaw in the story, we'll never know how they can tie a clerick to his gun and i have used far to many " " in this large comment. I'm sorry for bringing this up, AGAIN, but now lets all sit back and enjoy the movie for what it really is. A stunning piece of cinematography. Clerick Alf No need to apologize whatsoever. This is a very intriguing topic. I see your points, and you make good ones. Definitely a possibility. I don't really like the idea that they would change the gun swap scene to be another scene for the sake of clarity, since it belies an error in sequencing, but that is not to say that you are not correct, as you may very well be. Thanks for adding some more great insight into this. I don't believe anyone else has had this theory to explain the swap. ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Duke on Oct 11, 2003 23:35:28 GMT -5
Just a comment...i really doubt that they would have done an actual ballistic annalysis on the bullets that killed a sweeper team...they most likely would have just assumed t was the restistance and buried their dead. When brandt accuses preston of the attck it would seem they use some computer scan of the gun itself and its location, if they had done the ballistics test it would have taken a long time and not just on the spot at the accustation...therefore they would have long ago known that brandt's gun had been used to shoot a sweeper team, and would not have just stored this info for later rite? So it must be a techno scan thingie for location...i think...
ever occur to you that preston doesn't >want< to kill people he doesn't need to?
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Post by Duke on Oct 11, 2003 23:46:25 GMT -5
just an update, i had a look at the trace screen and it has in the bottom right (not the far right column, but the one one to the left at the bottom) " Location nether coordinates x ------ y ------ - ------ - ------" where the --'s are the parts i can't make out...
This seems to show that the scan is based on location rather than bullets
and... if he switched at the car, and then switched back at the execution...why did brant pull out his gun? was there a third switch? did he not really switch it the second time? is this second switch kind of like the editing mistake in starwars ep 1 where cp3o's eye switches from anikin's right hand to his left hand between anikin speaking- a simple mistake due to takes and retakes differing slightly??
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Post by BMaloney on Oct 12, 2003 0:18:08 GMT -5
Must this be brought up AGAIN?? Curses.. Brian's curious again.
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Post by Duke on Oct 12, 2003 2:55:17 GMT -5
Of course it has 2 be brought up again, why did u look at it if u don't wanna see it? ;D ahh well... It is a great movie...of course a flaw that can be discussed like this will be discussed...who here believes the balrog has wings? (Don't actually answer that...let's not have a wing war here...)
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Post by JenGe on Oct 12, 2003 8:54:31 GMT -5
Of course it has 2 be brought up again... I actually happen to agree with this. As new fans find the film they will have many of the same questions, thoughts, & need for discussion that we, the original fans have had. In fact, I enjoy reading their new input & ideas on the subject. In my hum. op. nothing about EQ is too old or worn out to talk about...even if some of us think we know every aspect of the film already we really do not.
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KMFDM
Sense Offender
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Post by KMFDM on Oct 12, 2003 21:37:37 GMT -5
Hey, just a thought on what might have happened. Before they go to kill the dogs, Preston hands Brendt a gun... but which gun is given? While it is true that Preston has not yet begun to want to help the resistance yet, it could be concieved as a common error. This could be the initial swap. Then, when Preston does not shoot the captive sense offenders, he hands Brandts gun back to him, Brandt being none the wiser to it. Like I said, just a thought. Enjoy.
And Shepards we shall be for thee my lord, for thee. Power hath descended forth from thy hand that out feet may swiftly carry out thy command so we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be, nomini patre et fili, et spiritu sancte.
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Post by I got it on Oct 21, 2003 12:50:44 GMT -5
I have it figured out, mostly.
In the scene before they find the dogs, Preston takes his gun off the hood and gives it to Brandt. This is the switch. Preston then pops the sweeper team with Brandt's gun. At the point where the wall execution takes place Brandt gives his gun to Preston, but he is really giving back Preston's gun. Preston says "its better if you have it" because he doesn't want his gun back, but wants the switch (which incrimintaes Brandt) to stay as is. In the "twist" scene in Libria the flashback is to the wall execution scene because Brandt realizes what Preston meant when he said "its better if you have it".
OK, now the other stuff.
1) Brandt is in the know about the swap and knows that Preston wants him to take the fall. He is making Preston feel safe by being taken away and he wanted this to happen. This is made clear at the end of the movie.
2) Preston uses two guns on the sweeper team, not one. - Well you can either assume that only one of the clerics' guns are marked, or you can assume that there was a double switch that wasn't shown.
3) Funky editing - Thats the directors fault.
4) The guns are supposedly traced based on location. - BS not possible. If they have gps in guns then they probably have them in the clerics' cars too so they would know that Preston was right there, unless there was a car switch too, but thats getting kind of weird. So the discrepancy in Brandt's possision and his guns position would have been noticed, and its highly unlikely that a cleric would got walking around on foot way out in the nethers.
did I miss anything?
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Post by or on Oct 21, 2003 12:54:20 GMT -5
In the execution scene there could have been a switch, but this would be confusing since in the end Brandt did have Preston's gun during the twist scene. So either there was only 1 switch or three.
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Post by Wex on Oct 30, 2003 14:16:59 GMT -5
enough with all this crap about the gun swap its like sooooooo obvious. Its not about scenes missed or in the wrong place, or all these crazy theorys its simple when the rebels are lined up against the glass wall and brandt give preston his gun in prestons RIGHT HAND. and then preston stands for a while with his own gun in his LEFT HAND. then preston if you watch carefully but it's pretty obvious gives his gun to brandt in his LEFT HAND so now bramdt has his gun.
Simple proof of this is preston walks away when the rebels are killed and has a gun in his RIGHT HAND(brandts). There you are get over it already.
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Post by Golgo13 on Oct 30, 2003 17:46:05 GMT -5
Yeah, but the "switch" of that 1[/i] gun takes place after Preston already killed the sweeper team with 2[/i] guns.
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Furbe
Sense Offender
Posts: 1
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Post by Furbe on Nov 2, 2003 17:26:55 GMT -5
But did anyone notice that the "trace" run by the bosses only displays information about ONE gun? And also, that Brandt only checks ONE gun? This makes no sense. You're a cleric, you've got two sidearms, wouldn't you check them both? Oh, and tracking only ONE gun would make tracking kind of moot, don'tcha think? I mean, it's not as if they can't shoot with their left hand as well... Since there must be tracking, the idea of location tracking of the guns is the ONLY way it can work. The guns must send a traceable GPS signal to be stored at the Tetragrammaton HQ. I guess we'll all just assume that they don't do regular searches of that data, and that they also didn't check cleric sidearm records to see if anyone had been there until the final "twist" scene. Surely if they did scientific ballistic testing on the bullets in the sweeper bodies and found Brandt's "tracked bullets" they'dve done something. You wouldn't let a crazed Cleric that was murdering sweepers wander around. Unless Brandt and DuPont knew there had been a switch and hushed it up to continue the illusion for Preston. But wouldn't PRESTON have wondered why Brandt hadn't been hauled off to jail after murdering a team of sweepers? Assuming he knew he used a switched gun, he knew he wiped out a team of sweepers in Brandt's name... I think the answer here is obvious. We've got an under-budgeted film and a director working on the cheap. He's got this great idea for a plot twist, it works out on surface examination, so you throw it in, you throw a couple opportunities for the guns to get switched, and bammo, instant plot twist. Little did he know a Star-Trek-esque nitpicker community would spring up around his film and make his life miserable because he didn't spend enough time considering the nuances of the thing. Take it all surface. Guns are trace-able, Preston had opportunites before killing the sweepers to swap the guns. There you go. Preston is the man, Brandt is toast, and we're all home happy. Just accept that if you dig deeply enough, this doesn't work out. I'm sure if you got the chance to ask Wimmer, he'd just say "Well, we didn't expect anyone to think that hard about it." Now THAT'S a solved Gun Swap.
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iolair
Resistance Member
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Post by iolair on Nov 3, 2003 18:38:10 GMT -5
I have ANOTHER theory. One that hopefully has no holes (but poke away, see if you can find any).
OK, here goes.
There was no gun swap.
OK, I'll let you read it again.
There was no gun swap.
By the time the history of the gun in the sweeper killings is revealed, Preston is already working with the resistance. The easiest explanation is they have a mole in Tetragrammaton forensics/technicians who could falsify the evidence to keep Preston in the clear and frame Brandt.
The reaction by Brandt and the reference back to the execution moment earlier were just Brandt's attempt to account for what to him was a genuine shock at that moment.
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Post by Raven on Nov 10, 2003 17:01:12 GMT -5
I dunno if this has anything to do with the gun swap, but is there a possibility that Preston might be carrying more than 2 guns? If you noticed he usually uses the guns from the wrist holsters, but in the fight scene before the execution, the guns he used to club the sweepers to death were actually from his pocket...
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Post by MAX on Nov 10, 2003 17:53:24 GMT -5
That is a possibility. 'iolair', while I like the general idea of your theory... I don't think that that's actually what happened. It just doesn't sound right, somehow.
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