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Post by JenGe on Dec 15, 2003 9:35:46 GMT -5
... Plot holes, to me, are mistakes, such as...sorry, but such as, the gun swap. All they needed do was remove Brandt's flashback to the execution scene... No no no!!! Don't re-edit that scene!! I don't think that it is a mistake or a plot hole at all. Here is my recent epiphany on the subject...
... The biggest problem I think with the gun swap is that we really do not know how a weapon is traced in Libria. Many have assumed in would be the normal method by the gun or the bullets being tagged but you reminded me of something. Wimmer stated on a number of occasions that he based much of the film on Judge Dredd. Now if I remember correctly they traced & used the guns through the DNA holding the weapon. The trace used in EQ could be completely different then what we assume.
Thanks for making me think about this dumb subject again!!  ;D  [/size] |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 15, 2003 9:47:53 GMT -5
Yep, we're assuming that the Tetragrammaton traces run like our own. But can someone confirm, cause I don't have time to do it, do the Cleric weapons leave ejected shells as they fire...or are they caseless?
[EDIT] Checked Mr Anderson's EQ Vid heh, still on my PC, ok...in some scenes, there seems to be no ejected brass. In the last fight though...there's a lot of ejected brass.
Argh, damn you KW! for making me start thinking once more...
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Post by JenGe on Dec 15, 2003 10:13:54 GMT -5
Yep, we're assuming that the Tetragrammaton traces run like our own. But can someone confirm, cause I don't have time to do it, do the Cleric weapons leave ejected shells as they fire...or are they caseless? Yes they do leave shells. There's a beautiful shot in the closing sequence when Preston crosses over his pistols in front of himself & the cases as they eject form an "X". |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 15, 2003 10:37:45 GMT -5
Yes they do leave shells. There's a beautiful shot in the closing sequence when Preston crosses over his pistols in from of himself & the cases as they eject form an "X". Thank-ee Jen  |
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Post by Kodanshi on Dec 15, 2003 19:06:48 GMT -5
I agree with Trinity that Taye Diggs' character may have given the whole 'get my interval adjusted' speech for Preston's benefit. He keeps saying things like 'I'm pleased to be working with you' (though he could say things like that in the same way Preston would use 'sorry'), but the biggest pointer comes when Preston kills his way to DuPont's office. DuPont makes a joke: 'You really should knock', to which Brandt turns to him and smiles in appreciation. He laughed at the joke! Humour, appreciation of humour! Feelings! |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 16, 2003 5:48:32 GMT -5
Kill them all, Sense Offenders the lot of em!
*BLAM-GUNKATA-BLAM*
I love Brandt's smile though, so false...and so bright, I need sunglasses just to look at him.
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Post by Cleric smith on Dec 16, 2003 13:05:12 GMT -5
yeah i also heard that he got picked for the part of brandth because of his smile
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Post by Trinity on Dec 16, 2003 20:25:48 GMT -5
No no no!!! Don't re-edit that scene!! I don't thinik that it is a mistake or a plot hole at all. Here is my recent epiphany on the subject... [/size] [/quote] Sorry, Jen. Didn't mean to open this up for discussion again. It's just that in the movie, during the execution scene, they emphasize the fact that Preston takes Brand't gun with his right hand and return it with his left, leading us to perhaps believe that the gun was switched at that time. And then Brandt's flashback... Would you mind elaborating for me your take on the gun swap, Jen? I read what you posted, but me, being dumb at times, am not fully clear as to how this would work. Maybe a PM, because I don't want to irritate anyone here any further with this subject. Thanks! |
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Post by JenGe on Dec 16, 2003 21:11:00 GMT -5
Sorry, Jen. Didn't mean to open this up for discussion again. No problem, I live for a good debate.  Yes, I know but you see for me the gun swap works just fine at the execution. The flashback works just fine as well. I think this may be something that we might just have to disagree on Trin because in NO WAY do I want to see EQ re-edit to fix a supposed flaw that I don't think really exists. (just my hum. op.) |
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Post by Trinity on Dec 16, 2003 21:20:12 GMT -5
No problem, I leave for a good debate.  Yes, I know but you see for me the gun swap works just fine at the execution. The flashback works just fine as well. I think this may be something that we might just have to disagree on Trin because in NO WAY do I want to see EQ re-edit to fix a supposed flaw that I don't think really exists. (just my hum. op.) I'm not sure we do disagree, because I still stand confused on this issue. So, you mean with the DNA tracing, the execution scene and Brandt's flashback to it work? How, exactly? I'm trying to understand. Sorry if I can be dense at times...didn't see Judge Dredd. ;D Thanks, Jen! |
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Post by JenGe on Dec 16, 2003 21:41:09 GMT -5
You really have to see Judge Dredd to understand what I'm getting at...
WARNING!!! MAJOR JUDGE DREDD SPOILERS AHEAD!!!
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The guns in Judge Dredd are fired and traced by the DNA of the person holding &/or firing it. Only Dredd can fire his own weapon because it is coded to his DNA but in the film he is framed with one of his own weapons because the shooter has Dredd's exact DNA so when they make the trace it goes back to him.
What I am getting at is that the trace made on the gun just before the "flashback" sequence in EQ could very well have lead to Brand depending upon how that trace what performed. We just do not know. Perhaps it traced the weapon to who was holding it currently at that time or who had been firing it recently through DNA. We just don't know.
My point is that because Wimmer has flatly stated Judge Dredd as a source on numerous occasions it is entirely possible that an alternate means of trace was used in Libria. He was certainly aware of the one used in that film. I'm not saying it IS the answer (only Wimmer knows that) but the thought is quite intriguing.
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Post by Walldude on Dec 16, 2003 23:36:27 GMT -5
I agree with Trinity that Taye Diggs' character may have given the whole 'get my interval adjusted' speech for Preston's benefit. He keeps saying things like 'I'm pleased to be working with you' (though he could say things like that in the same way Preston would use 'sorry'), but the biggest pointer comes when Preston kills his way to DuPont's office. DuPont makes a joke: 'You really should knock', to which Brandt turns to him and smiles in appreciation. He laughed at the joke! Humour, appreciation of humour! Feelings! Actually, the major pointer for me came before anyone said a word in that scene. Preston enters the office and Wimmer does a great slow pan of the room, showing paintings, colors, tapestries and beautiful architecture indicating that not only are Brandt and whatshisname, feeling but they are using Prozium as a way to keep the masses down while they live it up in style. Another brilliant moment in a movie flooded with them. BTW Great board you guys have going here, it's not too often you find an intelligent conversation on the net Crap.. I just noticed I'm a sense offender.. gonna have to get posting here... |
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Post by JenGe on Dec 17, 2003 10:07:15 GMT -5
BTW Great board you guys have going here, it's not too often you find an intelligent conversation on the net Crap.. I just noticed I'm a sense offender.. gonna have to get posting here... I'm thrilled to read that you are enjoying the board!! We are always looking for new people to add their insights to the discussions. Welcome!! |
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Post by Libby on Dec 17, 2003 17:50:48 GMT -5
;D It's great to see so many new people discovering the site! Can't the cinemas do a sort of second release?
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Post by Kodanshi on Dec 17, 2003 18:30:28 GMT -5
Actually, the major pointer for me came before anyone said a word in that scene. Preston enters the office and Wimmer does a great slow pan of the room, showing paintings, colors, tapestries and beautiful architecture indicating that not only are Brandt and whatshisname, feeling but they are using Prozium as a way to keep the masses down while they live it up in style. Another brilliant moment in a movie flooded with them. YES! That kind of hit it home to me too. Bizarrely, I had to explain to my sister what that scene signified! And just drifting off track slightly, one of my most favourite scenes comes when Preston takes his glove off to feel the banister against his fingers, then draws his hand away sharply because of the sensation - almost as though he'd received splinters. I recall Wimmer, in the commentary, saying someone pissed themselves laughing at that scene. I don't understand why  . |
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Post by JenGe on Dec 18, 2003 12:44:41 GMT -5
And just drifting off track slightly, one of my most favourite scenes comes when Preston takes his glove off to feel the banister against his fingers, then draws his hand away sharply because of the sensation - almost as though he'd received splinters . This also reminded me of the scene when Preston removes his gloves & feels the bullet holes in the walls. |
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Post by Kodanshi on Dec 19, 2003 10:53:31 GMT -5
I don't know. That seemed different - like he used touch to 'sense' the secret room behind the wall. With the banister scene he only newly discovered feeling, and went up the stairs automatically as usual. But this time, seeing the bare-handed woman, he felt an overwhelming need to take his glove off and feel the reality of the world around him.
Plus the sounds, weird lighting, etc. all combined to make it seem very hallucinogenic, almost, despite it actually having more 'reality' to it than his earlier life and method of 'living'. Of course, having never taken hallucinogenic drugs that word just serves as a 'vestigial remnant' for something I've never actually felt ;D .
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Post by Libby on Dec 19, 2003 12:03:38 GMT -5
I think the gloves are rather symbolic. They 'protect' Preston from the reality of the world, in the same way that Prozium does. Perhaps, removing them is his way of connecting with his senses.
He needs to touch the rail to try to understand what the woman feels. He kills the Sweepers in the Nethers bare-handed, having stroked the puppy, but wears them to dispatch the Sweepers in the warehouse. When Brandt delivers the 'Nice grab, Cleric.' line, Preston is horrified at the blood on his gloves and shedding them maybe represents a further distancing from his previous un-feeling existence. Wearing a white uniform and white gloves puts him into the the 'white knight'/'hero' category, where his actions are justified.
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Post by Kodanshi on Dec 19, 2003 15:13:14 GMT -5
I think the gloves are rather symbolic. They 'protect' Preston from the reality of the world, in the same way that Prozium does. Perhaps, removing them is his way of connecting with his senses. He needs to touch the rail to try to understand what the woman feels. Indeed, but the sensation completely overwhelms him! He immediately draws his hand back as though the act of touching the banister had given him a splinter. No real point to my mentioning this, except that I just love that scene, its portrayal, what it means in the context of the film, and so on. |
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Post by Trinity on Dec 19, 2003 21:04:55 GMT -5
You really have to see Judge Dredd to understand what I'm getting at... WARNING!!! MAJOR JUDGE DREDD SPOILERS AHEAD!!! - - - - - - - - - - - The guns in Judge Dredd are fired and traced by the DNA of the person holding &/or firing it. Only Dredd can fire his own weapon because it is coded to his DNA but in the film he is framed with one of his own weapons because the shooter has Dredd's exact DNA so when they make the trace it goes back to him. What I am getting at is that the trace made on the gun just before the "flashback" sequence in EQ could very well have lead to Brand depending upon how that trace what performed. We just do not know. Perhaps it traced the weapon to who was holding it currently at that time or who had been firing it recently through DNA. We just don't know. My point is that because Wimmer has flatly stated Judge Dredd as a source on numerous occasions it is entirely possible that an alternate means of trace was used in Libria. He was certainly aware of the one used in that film. I'm not saying it IS the answer (only Wimmer knows that) but the thought is quite intriguing. You've explained it very well. Thanks, Jen. This is the best scenario yet for the gun swap, IMO. ;D |
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Post by Libby on Dec 20, 2003 8:49:16 GMT -5
Indeed, but the sensation completely overwhelms him! He immediately draws his hand back as though the act of touching the banister had given him a splinter. I understand what you're getting at...I see it more that he feels the warmth on the rail from the woman's hand and that's what overwhelms him. Clerics aren't known for touchy-feely stuff! |
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Post by JenGe on Dec 22, 2003 17:10:37 GMT -5
...I see it more that he feels the warmth on the rail from the woman's hand and that's what overwhelms him. I never thought if it from that perspective before...very interesting!! |
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Post by Kodanshi on Dec 23, 2003 11:26:37 GMT -5
I never thought if it from that perspective before...very interesting!! No, neither had I! A very intriguing point... |
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Post by Libby on Dec 23, 2003 12:49:51 GMT -5
;)Cheers!
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Post by Silencer on Dec 28, 2003 13:53:30 GMT -5
I think the gloves are rather symbolic. They 'protect' Preston from the reality of the world, in the same way that Prozium does. Perhaps, removing them is his way of connecting with his senses. He needs to touch the rail to try to understand what the woman feels. He kills the Sweepers in the Nethers bare-handed, having stroked the puppy, but wears them to dispatch the Sweepers in the warehouse. When Brandt delivers the 'Nice grab, Cleric.' line, Preston is horrified at the blood on his gloves and shedding them maybe represents a further distancing from his previous un-feeling existence. Wearing a white uniform and white gloves puts him into the the 'white knight'/'hero' category, where his actions are justified. I never thought of it that way... Personally, I love the way touch is used to express Preston's curiosity/desire to feel. Touch is the most basic feeling, and it's also the best (at least, best visually) way to portray to the audience that preston is really feeling. Libby's take on Preston's gloves is a great example of this, and how brilliant this movie is in that sense. |
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