Grammaton 1st Class
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Post by Grammaton 1st Class on May 2, 2003 12:19:13 GMT -5
This has been nagging at me ever since I noticed it...
There is a scene where Taye Diggs takes Christian Bale before the council. He says to check Cleric Preston's gun because it was his gun that was used in the nether murders. It then shows up that it is in fact Diggs' gun and not Preston's that did the killing, and we see a flashback of the scene earlier in the film in which Preston switches guns when giving Diggs his gun back.
Here is the hole....this could not have happened.
The scene in which Taye Diggs gives Preston his gun is AFTER the nether murder scene. This means that Bale did not yet have Diggs' gun when he murdered the patrol. On top of that, He pulled out a second gun in that scene, so it wouldn't have mattered anyways, for at least one of the guns was his.
Don't get me wrong, I love this film...but this discrepancy is just nagging at me. I hope they re-edited the movie for DVD and put the nether scene AFTER the gun switch scene...it would at least make a lot more sense.
Did anyone else notice this???
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Post by Spider AL on May 3, 2003 6:43:33 GMT -5
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Post by Spider AL on May 3, 2003 6:49:20 GMT -5
Btw, there are a couple of things I've been thinking about since those discussions... *SPOILERS* 1. The one-gun switch would suggest that only one of a pair of guns issued to a Grammaton are electronically tagged. Is it me, or does only one gun-butt look silvery in the scene where preston pistol-whips the guards to death? 2. If the pre-dog scene was the actual switch, the execution scene would merely have been preston handing the same gun Brandt gave him back, and while not impossible, the hand in which he held the gun would make it at least a little implausible. Basically I subscribe to the "he switched the guns in the pre-dog scene and just handed Brandt his own gun back in the execution scene" theory, all flashback-content and "which hand" conundra aside.
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Post by JenGe on May 3, 2003 12:08:04 GMT -5
I think I need to create a FAQs page and include this one in it because I get the feeling we'll be seeing it over and over again unless Wimmer covers it on the DVD. Personally for me it's never really been an issue. IMDb also has a number of threads and theories... Here... us.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/board/thread/1361790Here... us.imdb.com/title/tt0238380/board/thread/1189637Personally, I really wouldn't want the answers because then it would end the discussion, debate, and creative thinking. I find all the different theories and ideas fascinating without ever having an absolute concrete conclusion, but I guess that's just me.
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Post by BMaloney on May 3, 2003 19:13:21 GMT -5
I find all the different theories and ideas fascinating without ever having an absolute concrete conclusion, but I guess that's just me. Hehe proof she's really crazy!
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Post by kingdaywalker on May 3, 2003 21:59:38 GMT -5
1. The one-gun switch would suggest that only one of a pair of guns issued to a Grammaton are electronically tagged. Is it me, or does only one gun-butt look silvery in the scene where preston pistol-whips the guards to death? Actually they say that it was "a trace of your side-arm" or something very similar to that, which confirms they are tracing a single gun.
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Post by koalabear on May 4, 2003 11:28:08 GMT -5
Oddly enough that didn't trouble me as much as why did Preston have a cut on his neck at the end? He manages to defeat legions, Taye and Father unscathed - so WHO is it in the end who manages to mark him so badly!?!
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Post by kingdaywalker on May 4, 2003 21:01:43 GMT -5
Oddly enough that didn't trouble me as much as why did Preston have a cut on his neck at the end? He manages to defeat legions, Taye and Father unscathed - so WHO is it in the end who manages to mark him so badly!?! Kurt answered this at the Q&A. It happened during the fight with Dupont. If i remember correctly they didnt have th time or money to do the fx shot of the bullet hitting his neck.
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Post by koalabear on May 4, 2003 22:31:19 GMT -5
Kingdaywalker: Sorry! I hadn't finished listening to the commentaries yet. On the second DVD commentary with Lucas the producer, Kurt DOES explain the cut and says it's a bullet wound.
I was confused because I thought it looked like a sword cut and couldn't imagine that anyone AFTER Brandt and DuPont would have had the ability to mark him. Wimmer says something along the lines of people always thinking that there is a scene missing but it's not a scene missing, just a shot.
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Grammaton 1st Class
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Post by Grammaton 1st Class on May 5, 2003 5:34:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification...it's still iffy, but at least I have multiple scenarios to think about.
Another thing that really bugged me is why the hell dont they search Preston in the final interrogation scene??? He walks in, they take his sword....why does nobody pat him down for his pistiols? His pistols would be the obvios thing to look for...after all, they are a cleric's main weapons. Any ideas?
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Post by koalabear on May 5, 2003 8:08:05 GMT -5
Another thing that really bugged me is why the hell dont they search Preston in the final interrogation scene??? He walks in, they take his sword....why does nobody pat him down for his pistiols? His pistols would be the obvios thing to look for...after all, they are a cleric's main weapons. Any ideas? OK don't laugh but I've just listened to the DVD and this is what Kurt Wimmer says on the first commentary about the pistol thing: Here are the metal detectors he's talking about: Sorry it's a bit dark but I think you can see it .....
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Post by Spider AL on May 5, 2003 13:55:21 GMT -5
To me the wound on Preston's neck is much more effective without explanation. Without the shot of DuPont's bullet wounding him, the cut implies that Preston has had a large scale battle on the way out of Father's chambers, in addition to one on the way in. It implies that he's fought quite a lot of opponents, too. To me, this is much MUCH cooler and perhaps dare I say it, more realistic, than: "he kills DuPont and no other guards challenge him at all after that".
Add to this the simple subtext of the blood implying an internal taint upon him, (he's killed a lot of people without the excuse of prozium, etc.) and I think it's the most effective, deepest image the film has to offer, and I for one hope the connecting shot is the one deleted/not filmed shot that's never reinserted.
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Post by JenGe on May 6, 2003 8:55:52 GMT -5
Add to this the simple subtext of the blood implying an internal taint upon him, (he's killed a lot of people without the excuse of prozium, etc.) and I think it's the most effective, deepest image the film has to offer... See, for me that moment came when Preston touched the screen with his bloodied hand - great imagery and symbolism there.
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Gualie
Resistance Member
Posts: 30
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Post by Gualie on May 26, 2003 7:29:53 GMT -5
it's amazing how many diffrent things that people see in a movie.....
When preston flatlines the polygraph machine, is to me, the moment he accepts what he has done, past and present and what he must do now to set the world right.
"No, not without incident" is whan preston has set himself to the task at hand, atoning for his wife, for Partridge, for Mary, for every life he has taken for the tetragrammaton.
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Post by Trinity on Jun 10, 2003 18:49:07 GMT -5
Hello. This discussion is fascinating! I, too, have been wondering on the timing of the gun switch. Another theory I had was that since they were trying to "play" Preston the entire time, they allowed him to believe the gun was switched at the appropriate time, when in fact it was not? Perhaps they are just going along with him? Kinda weak, I know...sorry. And probably not right, because it appears that Brandt's own memory shows the scene where Preston hands him the gun which is after the dog scene. Hmmmm. I will say, though, that I totally swallowed this potential "flaw" hook, line and sinker my first viewing. I was so excited that Brandt was going to Summary Combustion, I was cheering my head off. As for the cut on Preston's neck at the end and the blood running down his right arm....This bothered me. I haven't watched the commentary version with both the Director and Producer, so I'll tune in to that, thanks. I note that this was supposed to be a gun graze wound. However, I believe that after the fight with DuPont is over, the blood is not on Preston's neck and arm yet. Is this correct? Also, one more thing. What about the guns, the bottoms of which eject the spikes with which Preston beats some police. How could Preston reload his gun with these in place? Doesn't his gun load via a clip inserted in the bottom? If anyone can shed more light on these for me, I'd be grateful. Thank you!
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Gualie
Resistance Member
Posts: 30
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Post by Gualie on Jun 10, 2003 22:42:57 GMT -5
Trinity, the spikes would simply be a modification to the magazines (clips). every time you change a mag you simply throw in a new one wich also has spikes. we are shown three basic magazines in the corse of the movie. the spiked, the sleve loaded, and the exagerated base that he throws down the passage befor the hall way slaughter.
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Post by Trinity on Jun 11, 2003 11:07:37 GMT -5
Trinity, the spikes would simply be a modification to the magazines (clips). every time you change a mag you simply throw in a new one wich also has spikes. we are shown three basic magazines in the corse of the movie. the spiked, the sleve loaded, and the exagerated base that he throws down the passage befor the hall way slaughter. Thanks very much for the info., Gualie, I appreciate it. That totally answers my question. As you can see, I am sorely lacking in my knowledge of firearms. Thanks again!
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jnap21
Sense Offender
Posts: 3
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Post by jnap21 on Jan 14, 2004 22:31:17 GMT -5
Ok, I know that it has been a long time since this was talked about, and perhaps no one will ever read this...
Having seen Equilibrium for the first time a few days ago..I have been wondering the same thing as well.
But..what if the guns were switched before the doggy scene? Meaning..when Preston handed Brandt his gun off the hood of the car?
They were talking about what happends when there is nothing left...someone comes running saying that they found something..Preston picks up a gun, and hands it to Brandt. Perhaps this would be where the first switch takes place?
Just my thoughts..
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Post by Libby on Jan 15, 2004 16:20:43 GMT -5
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Post by ClericVictor on Jan 15, 2004 16:25:39 GMT -5
Ok, I know that it has been a long time since this was talked about, and perhaps no one will ever read this... Having seen Equilibrium for the first time a few days ago..I have been wondering the same thing as well. But..what if the guns were switched before the doggy scene? Meaning..when Preston handed Brandt his gun off the hood of the car? They were talking about what happends when there is nothing left...someone comes running saying that they found something..Preston picks up a gun, and hands it to Brandt. Perhaps this would be where the first switch takes place? Just my thoughts.. I thought so too tbh, but the swith took place when the resistance members (that John tried to help to escape) were executed, you remember: Brandt gives his firearm to Preston(to the right arm), and Preston Thinks what to do, and he decides to say: "No on the other hand, you do it", he gives the weapon he had in his left hand, as far as i reckon and takes Brandts what a smart fella
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Post by JenGe on Jan 15, 2004 17:05:19 GMT -5
...AUGH!!!...
***JenGe places head in hands & weeps***
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Post by ClericVictor on Jan 15, 2004 17:22:18 GMT -5
...AUGH!!!... ***JenGe places head in hands & weeps*** DId i say something wrong?
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Post by JenGe on Jan 15, 2004 17:35:46 GMT -5
No, not at all ClericVIctor. I was more teasing then anything. After having this site for almost a year this subject is one that haunts continually with really no answers. Many of us here have talked the subject to death so when it pops up again its a bit painful... ...but new members & those who have just discovered the film have every right to add to the discussion though you may find that many of us older members are now dealing with it in jest. My apologies
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Post by ClericVictor on Jan 15, 2004 17:39:08 GMT -5
What, is it incorrect?? damn you made me feel insecure
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jnap21
Sense Offender
Posts: 3
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Post by jnap21 on Jan 15, 2004 17:48:39 GMT -5
I thought so too tbh, but the swith took place when the resistance members (that John tried to help to escape) were executed, you remember: Brandt gives his firearm to Preston(to the right arm), and Preston Thinks what to do, and he decides to say: "No on the other hand, you do it", he gives the weapon he had in his left hand, as far as i reckon and takes Brandts what a smart fella Yes, however, the killing in the that Brandt refers to when telling DuPont to check his weapon, happens BEFORE the gun switch that is actually shown. Meaning, he would have had to have used Brandt's gun, or ONE of Brandt's guns during the first killing in the nethers.
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Post by JenGe on Jan 15, 2004 17:51:22 GMT -5
What, is it incorrect?? damn you made me feel insecure I never thought so but some do. See I go with the film that it occurred at the execution but the screenplay & others think it was are the car. There are actually some logical problems with both. I have my own twist on it but don't have time to go dig it up right now. What we really need is for someone to create a flow chart with the different theories .;D
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Post by MisterAnderson on Jan 15, 2004 18:06:33 GMT -5
I've pretty much avoided discussing this....until now. My theory is this - yes he did swap guns near the car after the nether sweep/dog shooting scene. But it goes a bit deeper....at the end where Father says "Brandt's job was simple, to make you feel like you'd won." I take this as meaning they ran a trace on the guns anyway to find both Brandts & Prestons weapons were used on the sweeper team, but because Brandt was already in on the deception he was setup to be the "fall guy" for the incident - to make Preston feel like he'd won. So for my mind, there was a gun swap & it just so happened that Brandt let it happen probably because he was told that there might be some deception/sleight-of-hand on Prestons behalf. And to be ready for it & the sequence of events that would follow. Well thats the explanation that helps me to get to sleep at nights anyway...
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jnap21
Sense Offender
Posts: 3
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Post by jnap21 on Jan 15, 2004 18:19:46 GMT -5
I have pretty much felt that too, but it has kinda seemed to easy. This is probably what it is...but....it is still kind of interesting to see when the first switch could have really happened.
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Post by pyro on Jan 15, 2004 18:27:08 GMT -5
But it goes a bit deeper....at the end where Father says "Brandt's job was simple, to make you feel like you'd won." I take this as meaning they ran a trace on the guns anyway to find both Brandts & Prestons weapons were used on the sweeper team, but because Brandt was already in on the deception he was setup to be the "fall guy" for the incident - to make Preston feel like he'd won. exactly, plain and simple, he was just set up would have Dupont believed so easily that Brandt was the tratior? probably not without other hard evidence. and since Dupont can Feel, he can aslo tell who esle is feeling
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Post by Libby on Jan 15, 2004 18:27:54 GMT -5
...AUGH!!!... ***JenGe places head in hands & weeps*** ***Libby joins JenGe for much wailing and gnashing of teeth***
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