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Post by JenGe on Dec 11, 2003 0:09:00 GMT -5
The following exchange just occurred in the site's guestbook & I thought I would repost it here because is brings up the odd concept of 'plot holes.' -----SPOILERS----- I've seen the concept of the 'plot hole' mentioned often in regards to EQ mostly about emotions, Brandt showing them...DuPont showing them when both are obviously 'feeling' throughout the film. Here is a recent discussion I had... www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/showthread.php?t=292654So what is the definition of a 'plot hole'?? It seems in this case often to be one of the audience member either not paying attention or missing some major clues. Is that really what is today considered a 'flaw in the plot'?? Besides I love fill in the blank, layered stories. They are much more personally interesting to me then the laid out on a platter version (*cough* Minority Report *cough*)... Thoughts??
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Post by MisterAnderson on Dec 11, 2003 0:57:23 GMT -5
My take, is that films are completely subjective anyway, open to interpretation & scrutiny by anyone. Like you say "its in the eye of the beholder" - as long as you like the film and are willing to forgive any minor discrepancies along the way, then that is all that truly matters. I've realized that it is often pointless to try to tell someone that a certain film is really good. Even friends & people that I think I know pretty well and think a movie would be to their tastes, can often backfire. They just don't revere it in the same way as you do. Which is fine - everyone thinks differently and has differing levels of taste when it come to movies. I'll just stick to talking to people who share a similar passion for the films that I love. But I'll be ready with a box of tissues & a pat on the shoulder for those who want to have little whinge about something they didn't like, saying: "There there, its not the end of the world..."
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Post by ClericArucard on Dec 11, 2003 12:20:02 GMT -5
well i gto a suggestion
SPOILER!!
anyways the scene where Prestion and Brandt and speaking while Brandt is driving(The scene where Brandt picks yp Preston from equilibrium) he says that he would stop by after and get his prozium adjusted, it could be shown here that his dose is too much or too little allowing him to show semi feelings (ergo to the scenes where he shows Anger, and when he smiles, even though he has a perfect shallow smile(shallow i mean heartless) hey just a thought
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Post by Libby on Dec 11, 2003 12:39:00 GMT -5
Reading the RT forum, I think LadyVyxen was simply determined, for whatever reason, to dislike the film. The comments reminded me of the vitriolic stuff some of the critics wrote (most of whom had obviously not even SEEN the movie).
It's the complexity and downright intelligence of the film which seems to escape some people. As for 'plot holes' regarding emotions etc: Didn't KW say he had to make a choice? He coud have gone with 'zombies' but then the essence would have been lost. He left it up to us, his audience, to accept that Prozium cuts off the extremes leaving the essential personality intact. In fact, if these critics had listened to Father's 'Prozium - the great nepenthe' speech they would realise just that.
Preston's character on or off the dose is that of a decent, fair and honourable human being. Brandt is a self-serving borderline psychotic and DuPont, well....
But I digress. Every film has flaws, just like every person has flaws, but that's often what makes them and us more interesting.
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Rip
Resistance Member
Posts: 37
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Post by Rip on Dec 11, 2003 12:56:40 GMT -5
Equilibrium still has less mistakes than any of the Matrix films.
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Post by ClericArucard on Dec 11, 2003 17:54:26 GMT -5
Reading the RT forum, I think LadyVyxen was simply determined, for whatever reason, to dislike the film. The comments reminded me of the vitriolic stuff some of the critics wrote (most of whom had obviously not even SEEN the movie). It's the complexity and downright intelligence of the film which seems to escape some people. As for 'plot holes' regarding emotions etc: Didn't KW say he had to make a choice? He coud have gone with 'zombies' but then the essence would have been lost. He left it up to us, his audience, to accept that Prozium cuts off the extremes leaving the essential personality intact. In fact, if these critics had listened to Father's 'Prozium - the great nepenthe' speech they would realise just that. Preston's character on or off the dose is that of a decent, fair and honourable human being. Brandt is a self-serving borderline psychotic and DuPont, well.... But I digress. Every film has flaws, just like every person has flaws, but that's often what makes them and us more interesting. excellent way to put, coundn't have put it better myself
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Post by Libby on Dec 11, 2003 18:02:52 GMT -5
excellent way to put, coundn't have put it better myself Thank You. And welcome!
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 11, 2003 18:13:57 GMT -5
I have to admit, I like that, nicely said Libby
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Post by Libby on Dec 11, 2003 18:57:56 GMT -5
I have to admit, I like that, nicely said Libby Cheers! I think I'm in a philosophical frame of mind tonight!
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 11, 2003 19:05:25 GMT -5
You're welcome, I might add my own view on plot holes and I have one thing to say about EQ and the supposed plot holes I'm glad they are there. I'd hate for a film to be so cut and dried that everything was tied up like a neat little package. I mean, what would we talk about, what would we have to discuss if it were this paragon of cinematic virtue...?
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Post by Libby on Dec 11, 2003 19:14:56 GMT -5
You're 'absolutely, 100% right'. I think that's what drives me bananas about Agatha Christie/Poirot and the like. It's all done for you (even if AC has to do it all in the last 10 pages). Nothing's open to interpretation.
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Post by Libby on Dec 11, 2003 19:16:06 GMT -5
Hey! I'm a Sweeper! ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 11, 2003 19:17:12 GMT -5
Congratulations And yep, if you look at my writing for instance you'll see - I don't describe every detail or action, I hint.
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Post by Libby on Dec 11, 2003 19:24:42 GMT -5
You do indeed, then flesh the hints out at unexpected times. I think it's good to keep readers on their toes!
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 11, 2003 19:40:21 GMT -5
I think that's why I like EQ so much, because it reminds me of my own style. I think our society, and critics in general have forgotten it's about the art and the drama of the subject.
They seem to think it's amusing to make snide comments about a movie, run it down and so forth. Complain it has too many holes, a friend of mine said it had holes llke a Swiss Cheese...and he wouldn't watch it due to X-review.
I brought him around to my way of thinking with a swift application of the movie when he couldn't escape. He soon changed his tune, declaring at the end.
How much is this DVD again?
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Post by ClericArucard on Dec 12, 2003 2:35:50 GMT -5
i just showed the film to a friend of mine and he freaked out loved it so much lol i've brought another one over
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 12, 2003 6:08:23 GMT -5
Excellent work Cleric!
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Post by JenGe on Dec 12, 2003 9:18:16 GMT -5
i just showed the film to a friend of mine and he freaked out loved it so much lol i've brought another one over The webmaster salutes you...
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Post by ClericArucard on Dec 12, 2003 14:38:38 GMT -5
yes yes hes now one of us muahahahahahahha now wheres his prozium lol
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Post by pyro on Dec 12, 2003 17:19:44 GMT -5
Hey! I'm a Sweeper! ;D ;D ;D welcome to the tetra grammaton! Cleric Wolf has made first class!! man you are truley a fast poster, plus it was all legit! ::slautes::
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Post by ClericArucard on Dec 12, 2003 21:40:39 GMT -5
i shall become a Grammaton Cleric class soon i hope but yeah wolfy is one quick poster like 90 posts between 2 days crazy fool crazy
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 13, 2003 5:57:15 GMT -5
welcome to the tetra grammaton! Cleric Wolf has made first class!! man you are truley a fast poster, plus it was all legit! ::slautes:: I learned the rote mastery of the Post Katas Thanks, pyro Arucard...
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Post by ClericArucard on Dec 13, 2003 14:51:32 GMT -5
wolf is teh post whore,
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Post by JenGe on Dec 13, 2003 16:23:54 GMT -5
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Post by TheRealFragger on Dec 13, 2003 16:45:53 GMT -5
Time to put my 2 cents in:
EQ is in my top 3 movies (along with Boondock Saints and Suceide Kings and if you havent seen these please do!) Now just about every movie has what could be considered a "plot hole." Take Se7en for instance, SPOILER The guy on the stairs looked nothing like Spacy at all. With out "plot holes" then movies like Fight Club or others wouldn't be as good. Now what I learned from E! (wow what a event!) is that at one point they made up a reviewer for thier movies to give them good reviews. NOW what I believe is that there could be people paid to give bad reviews or maybe im paranoid!
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Post by ClericArucard on Dec 13, 2003 17:04:25 GMT -5
Except post whores usually have nothing to say...wolf on the other hand... yes you have a good point there, normally post whores are like three second posts usually quite funny but a MODs nightmare at the same time
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 14, 2003 6:12:00 GMT -5
Except post whores usually have nothing to say...wolf on the other hand... LOL...I love the way you put that *GRIN* Yes, I have a lot to say, most of it I hope is intelligent and means something *little grin*
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Post by Cleric smith on Dec 14, 2003 6:17:30 GMT -5
welcome to the tetra grammaton! Cleric Wolf has made first class!! man you are truley a fast poster, plus it was all legit! ::slautes:: yeah but have you seen how many posts trinity has made shes made over a thousand EDIT:wow im a first class i never thought id make it
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Dec 14, 2003 6:20:36 GMT -5
yeah but have you seen how many posts trinity has made shes made over a thousand Yep indeed, it's not all that hard tho cleric smith, if you reply to the threads that you want to reply to, and you're making some contribution to the board...unlike a certain *cough* someone that got p0nw3d recently by Jen.
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Post by Trinity on Dec 14, 2003 14:23:00 GMT -5
Congrats, Wolfy and smith on making First Class!
I'm hoping no one will think of me as a post whore...I do hope my posts have a bit of weight. I am trying lately to put several comments to more than one person in a post, but still, I do like to single out certain comments that stir me, and so I can be a bit of a post hog sometimes.
Great points made, Libby and Wolfy. We are human and our films will contain plot holes or flaws. Of course, if someone terms something a plot hole for the simple fact that they aren't paying close enough attention to the film, then they are mistaken in their determination. For instance, let's take Brandt and DuPont showing emotion. They are hypocrites...typical leaders. "Are you PLAYING with me, Cleric?!" I gasped when I first saw EQ and thought, oh, my, he's feeling! And earlier, seeing Brandt, I knew he was feeling. The interval adjustment reference helped, but I wonder if this wasn't just for Preston's benefit, who, working closely with Brandt, would perhaps notice his smiles, empty as they were. But at the end, in the plushly decorated office of DuPont, all is revealed. So Brandt and DuPont showing emotion are not plot holes at all. Plot holes, to me, are mistakes, such as...sorry, but such as, the gun swap. All they needed do was remove Brandt's flashback to the execution scene.
That being said, I'm with Wolfy. Of course films will have plot holes, even great ones such as EQ. I believe it is a statement of KW's care of his art that EQ has so few of them. And I would say they are all due to budget rather than his attentive and loving eye.
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