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Post by Witcher Wolf on Jan 16, 2004 7:43:12 GMT -5
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Post by crypt on Jan 26, 2004 5:19:17 GMT -5
Firstly EQ, has now become one of my favorite movies. and reading these things is most entertaining
i think about the cut on his neck could be caused by a gun or a sword.
Providing that gun kata is based on both guns and swords, ( a more formal fighting).
I think the principal aspect i havent heard anyone state yet is that gunkata is based on probibility and although he is all great and the best of the best, there is probablly a bullet that got past his training.
after all 99% misses still alows for a 1% chance of a hit, and after all those gun fights it doesnt surprise me one sword or more likely a bullet got thru his defences no matter how good he trains.
Based on probibillity gunkata's defence (moving away of statisitcal tragectories) *excuse the spelling* can not mean unbeatable defences, it just raises in the clerics favor
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Post by Father on Jan 26, 2004 6:16:05 GMT -5
It's not a hole in the plot. No matter if he switched one gun, two gun or even swaped pants with Brandt, it doesn't matter because Dupont was actually setting up Preston. In that context we don't know how long the setup was taking place. In fact Equilibrium is just a propaganda movie to show you there is no way you can setup a first class grammaton cleric... (and Father didn't die, after the movie Preston finds Father locked up in a basement. Father gives him a medal of honour and everything goes back to normal)... ;D  |
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Post by Libby on Jan 26, 2004 6:39:44 GMT -5
I definitely prefer the idea of a 'pants swap' bacause any further mention of the you-know-what will cause certain forum members to go completely cleric! (split inifinitive intended!) ;D
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Cardinal
Resistance Member
Not without incident!
Posts: 61
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Post by Cardinal on Jan 27, 2004 10:22:38 GMT -5
sorry to keep dredging this up, but i noticed something that doesn't seem to have been pointed out (if it has, you all have my profound apologies and my permission to practise post kata on me)
when brandt hands preston his weapon at the execution scene, as far as i can make out, it is unmarked. this follows on from the old theory that only one gun of the pair is traced. so here is the order of events:
-preston gives brandt his own gun before the dog scene and takes brandt's: so preston has 1 brandt gun and 1 unmarked gun and brandt has 1 preston gun and 1 unmarked gun.
-at the execution scene, brandt gives preston his unmarked weapon: preston has 1 brandt gun and 2 unmarked weapons, brandt has 1 preston gun.
-then preston gives brandt his gun back: preston now has 2 unmarked guns and brandt has both his own and preston's marked guns.
this also explains, along with the position of the metal detectors, how preston was able to smuggle two guns into the polygraph room without either of them being traced.
i hereby vow never to mention this subject again!
< dons asbestos cleric suit>
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Post by ClericHeliX on Feb 6, 2004 13:53:49 GMT -5
Btw, there are a couple of things I've been thinking about since those discussions... *SPOILERS* 1. The one-gun switch would suggest that only one of a pair of guns issued to a Grammaton are electronically tagged. Is it me, or does only one gun-butt look silvery in the scene where preston pistol-whips the guards to death? 2. If the pre-dog scene was the actual switch, the execution scene would merely have been preston handing the same gun Brandt gave him back, and while not impossible, the hand in which he held the gun would make it at least a little implausible. Basically I subscribe to the "he switched the guns in the pre-dog scene and just handed Brandt his own gun back in the execution scene" theory, all flashback-content and "which hand" conundra aside. Im inclined to go with this theory ^ seems fairly plausible too me |
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Post by Cruis.In on Feb 6, 2004 23:33:21 GMT -5
Spider Al you post on jedi knight forums do you not?
anyway JenGe can't you make those topics about the plot holes sticky, so every new comer doesnt post one?
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Post by JenGe on Feb 7, 2004 9:52:40 GMT -5
anyway JenGe can't you make those topics about the plot holes sticky, so every new comer doesnt post one? I'd rather not. I'd end up with several pages just of sticky threads. I do have the threads linked at the FAQ page. There are several problems... 1. Older threads are often too long so actually a new thread sometimes works better especially when we get a flood of new people at one time. It often refreshes the subject a bit. 2. Since this is a movie forum there are really only so many topics that can be discussed. Just like on a religious message board you are going to see the same topics pop up over and over again. This is often difficult for older members who have beat a subject to death but new people are often fresh with ideas. Besides I figure if people start too many redundant threads harassment is always an option. I just could start a redundant & rhetorical board. I know...The Freedom Reading Room... ;D |
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Post by Libby on Feb 7, 2004 10:36:20 GMT -5
I just could start a redundant & rhetorical board. I know...The Freedom Reading Room... ;D Brilliant idea,Jen! ;D |
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Jamess
Resistance Member
'I will make it legal', Darth Sidious, TPM
Posts: 15
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Post by Jamess on Feb 7, 2004 18:10:49 GMT -5
Wow, Carnidal, you are my HERO!  You just came up with an explanation that clears everything about the gun swap And it explains why only one of Preston's gun was traced. I thought about it a lot, and I mean a lot, and your idea of marked and unmarked guns brings sense to it! Good job! |
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Jamess
Resistance Member
'I will make it legal', Darth Sidious, TPM
Posts: 15
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Post by Jamess on Feb 7, 2004 18:12:44 GMT -5
>Wow, Carnidal, you are my HERO! Heh, I meant 'Cardinal' of course!  |
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bob
Sense Offender
Posts: 1
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Post by bob on Aug 8, 2004 13:36:11 GMT -5
you have way too much time on your hands! Just enjoy the movie for what it is - action, action, action!
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Post by Preston on Aug 17, 2004 19:24:30 GMT -5
This has been nagging at me ever since I noticed it... There is a scene where Taye Diggs takes Christian Bale before the council. He says to check Cleric Preston's gun because it was his gun that was used in the nether murders. It then shows up that it is in fact Diggs' gun and not Preston's that did the killing, and we see a flashback of the scene earlier in the film in which Preston switches guns when giving Diggs his gun back. Here is the hole....this could not have happened. The scene in which Taye Diggs gives Preston his gun is AFTER the nether murder scene. This means that Bale did not yet have Diggs' gun when he murdered the patrol. On top of that, He pulled out a second gun in that scene, so it wouldn't have mattered anyways, for at least one of the guns was his. Don't get me wrong, I love this film...but this discrepancy is just nagging at me. I hope they re-edited the movie for DVD and put the nether scene AFTER the gun switch scene...it would at least make a lot more sense. Did anyone else notice this??? dupont did that so he would make preston think he had gotten away with it. -Preston |
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murray
Sweeper
no stairway... denied!
Posts: 93
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Post by murray on Jan 5, 2005 15:44:39 GMT -5
its all just magic. gun swap, gun kata, everything. magic
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Post by Julianna on Dec 5, 2005 22:53:41 GMT -5
its all just magic. gun swap, gun kata, everything. magic
After an eternity of reading threads on the topic, this is my all time favourite answer on the subject. ;D
(and since the topic seems to make you all want to scream and bang your head against a wall, I'll leave it at that *goes off to make flow chart and ponder explainations*)
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Post by JenGe on Dec 6, 2005 2:19:20 GMT -5
, I'll leave it at that *goes off to make flow chart and ponder explainations*) Hey, if you ever get that flow chart done send it to me and I'll add it to the site. ;D |
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Julianna
Sense Offender
"I'll follow thee and make a heaven of hell..."
Posts: 2
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Post by Julianna on Jan 10, 2006 22:42:30 GMT -5
, I'll leave it at that *goes off to make flow chart and ponder explainations*) Hey, if you ever get that flow chart done send it to me and I'll add it to the site. ;D *laughs* Oh, don't tempt me... (Actually, I'm not gonna lie; I started one during my Bio Lab today [because I was bored out of my friggin mind! eesh...] Heh...) |
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Post by JenGe on Jan 10, 2006 22:50:17 GMT -5
*laughs* Oh, don't tempt me... (Actually, I'm not gonna lie; I started one during my Bio Lab today [because I was bored out of my friggin mind! eesh...] Heh...) Kewl!! Looking forward to adding it!! ;D |
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Post by MJCorcoran on Mar 6, 2006 4:55:37 GMT -5
sorry if im repeating something i didnt want to read all the posts, but remember when the leader of the resistence told him that he must learn not to feel to succeed, that is what the flatline on the poly means and also why the polygraph says "oh shit" cause he knows he is now the perfect warrior. and i think the whole gun thing (the original reason why i came on line to research) is probably to get you thinking that something is up with the whole thing and expect the trap they set i mean it did seem like they turned on taye diggs' character rather quickly expecially using the proof he him self put forward. either that or it was just a mistake with the filming but they would probably have fix it or at least mention it on the commentary.
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Post by bob1234567 on Apr 19, 2006 8:03:07 GMT -5
EVERYONE EXCEPT THE LAST GUY IS COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT!!!
PRESTON WAS THE ONE BEING TRICKED BY FATHER AND BIGGS!!!
Father new fine well he was the the traitor in the midst as did biggs. Him pretrending he never knew he had Prestons gun was all an act! Something which he should have realised considering it was his guns used to kill the policmean and the computer was showing it was biggs gun. the fact that the Grammatons all use two guns means a one gun swap is futile anyway.
So just to clarify, preston swaping the guns did not help him in any way whatsoever, father was already on to him and had planned the whole thing before hand with biggs.
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Post by Libby on Apr 19, 2006 8:24:48 GMT -5
EVERYONE EXCEPT THE LAST GUY IS COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT!!! PRESTON WAS THE ONE BEING TRICKED BY FATHER AND BIGGS!!! Can we let you in on a little secret? We all know! This is like preaching to the converted or teaching your grandmother to suck eggs (not that either of mine did...they just fried/scrambled or boiled them like everyone else) I suggest you have a look at the Index of Frequent SubjectsAnd please don't shout...some of us might be a little dusty from hanging around for years but we're not deaf! |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on Apr 20, 2006 9:05:18 GMT -5
Biggs?
I don't recall a Biggs?
Oh wait I do, but not from EQ.
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Post by Aedh on May 26, 2006 20:45:28 GMT -5
I'm probably not saying much of anything new, but I am new, so apologies in advance if I'm being redundant to the veterans; hopefully I'm at least phrasing things interestingly.
It was evident from the get-go that Partridge was under suspicion, and Preston knew that he would be under suspicion, too. It is real life that when a cop goes bad his partner is seen as bearing blame. So Preston was intentionally assigned to situations that would tempt him the most, such as when he was allowed plenty of alone time in the place where he played the gramophone. And when he was sent on the assignment that netted Partridge's girlfriend. And the dogs. All that was intentional, to pressure him, and Preston knew it was intentional. That was exactly why he quit dosing. As an ace martial artist he knew that you must free yourself before you can become a master. He embarked on trying to do the same thing with emotions as he had done with his katas.
We know that both Dupont and Brandt can feel, but they believe that they can control their feelings while Preston cannot. The whole plot from the beginning was to try to get Preston to be carried away and defeated by his own inability to control his feelings.
As far as the "plot hole" idea goes, there isn't any. Brandt denouncing Preston and then being taken away was all part of the ploy. There is no way a guy as careful as Brandt wouldn't know his own weapon in a moment; everyone knew that. But Dupont was gambling that Preston's increasing "feelings" would overcome him and get him to monologuing. (These are "clerics" after all, traditionally, with clerics in real life, they have to confess in order to be convicted and stripped of their status. And Wimmer is aware of this.) Ironically, Dupont's own feelings, and his pride in thinking he had control of them, led him into trying to gratify them with this risky showdown.
Preston as a cleric knew early on that all this would be happening at some point. He was simply gaming the situation, and looking for his opportunity, which came because: he knew for a fact that HIS ability to control his feelings was superior to Dupont's and Brandt's ability to control theirs. That is the meaning of the "oh shit" flatline bit; in that moment he was showing he had mastered the emotional 'kata.' Everyone knew that if the first showdown (the staged one) didn't work, there would be a second one which would be real and final. In that sense, it is as much Dupont's own vulnerability to his pride and his desire for a gamble that brought down him and his regime, as much as anything Preston did. To me it's really that simple.
To be a bit more daring; I think if Preston had failed, Dupont's own flaws would have caused him to self-destruct eventually in another situation--he was being driven toward it, this is what they called in English class (back when they had 'English' class) the "tragic flaw." And I think, that Jurgen knew that all along, and maybe even Partridge and Mary too--witness both their quiet resignation in the end, Mary in the chamber, and Partridge basically teasing Preston into having to kill him.
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Post by Witcher Wolf on May 27, 2006 5:32:48 GMT -5
*twitch* |
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Post by Aedh on May 27, 2006 6:12:36 GMT -5
*twitch* means I've said something painfully obvious, I assume. Well, you were warned.  |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on May 27, 2006 6:56:40 GMT -5
Naw I'm just being my usual self when I see a new post on the Gun Swap/Plot Hole I like your take on it and from me, compliments are rare |
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Post by Libby on May 27, 2006 11:02:57 GMT -5
I, too, start getting twitchy when I see the GS/Plothole resurrected but Wolf's cmment made me read your post,aedh and it has some well-argued points. *picks up trumpet and blows* I've examined some of the Partridge/Preston/Mary set-up by DuPont in my fics and even surmised that the 'for years' comment meant that both Partridge and Preston had been under consideration for a long time. Who gave up Viviana? Was that the beginning of it?
This bit is interesting...
Just how 'early on' is debatable. We have to assume DuPont was biding his time...waiting for the right moment. Preston had killed Partridge and this had disturbed him, causing him to break the Prozium vial.
It's Robbie's admission to Brandt that Preston needed to go to EQ to replace his dose that actually sparks off the real intrigue. DuPont shuts down the EQ centre so Preston can't replace it then Brandt confirms that Preston has lied about not getting the replacement. Trap sprung. Let's go get Mary!
Preston and Brandt were playing games with each other all along, but I don't think Brandt realised just how clued in Preston was....
I'm not so sure about...
I think the point is that Preston did NOT know how to control his feelings right up until the final 'entirely without incident' moment. His actions are governed entirely by his emotions...he didn't go after Father because Jurgen asked him to help free Libria, he did it for Mary, hence the significance of the ribbon, especially in the scene when he's being driven to the Palace of Justice.
Still, nice to know there's life left in this thread!
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Post by Aedh on May 27, 2006 19:10:34 GMT -5
I think the point is that Preston did NOT know how to control his feelings right up until the final 'entirely without incident' moment. His actions are governed entirely by his emotions...he didn't go after Father because Jurgen asked him to help free Libria, he did it for Mary, hence the significance of the ribbon, especially in the scene when he's being driven to the Palace of Justice. You're right, Preston did not know how to control his feelings up to that point, but after that point he did. However, Preston was aware of what was going on and was working on mastering himself the way he worked on gun kata. That is what I was driving at by "superior ability." That gave him an advantage over Dupont especially, whose control was less perfect, perhaps due to ego weaknesses. It is the same idea that, the truly wise person is the one who first realizes how little he really knows. |
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Post by Witcher Wolf on May 28, 2006 7:16:11 GMT -5
I do believe that DuPont's ego (and Brandts) lead to their downfall yeah.
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Post by Gothicgds on Sept 26, 2006 17:28:01 GMT -5
Okay, people are probably going to beat me with Nerf-bats for reviving this, but I can't resist sharing my pet theory.
The biggest problem with the whole "gun switch" discussion is that Preston didn't use one gun to take out the sweep squad, he used two. What's the point of switching one gun when the other still incriminates you? I think Preston is smarter than that.
Think about it: Preston has his Beethoven revelation just before the car scene. Chances are, that scene is when he decided that he's not going to become a Prozium zombie again. So he starts planning ahead. He knows even the best can slip up, and sooner or later he'll probably have to defend himself. So in the car scene, he switches one of his guns with Brandt's.
However, in the Nether he winds up surrounded by sweepers using machine guns, so only one gun just isn't going to cut it. He's not worried about the gun he switched with Brandt's- that one won't incriminate him. However, the other can be traced back to him, so he has to get rid of it.
Soo...
Brandt offers Preston his gun to shoot the Resistance fighters, and it's a perfect opportunity to get rid of the incriminating gun, so he does.
So by the time of Preston's arrest, Brandt has both of Preston's guns, and the one he takes from Preston is actually Brandt's.
The only real plot error is that characters refer to "your gun" as if there's only one, when in reality there were two used.
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You just came up with an explanation that clears everything about the gun swap 
