"How come that you came to miss it?"

[Imylover]

This is one of the nr 1 questions in this film, isn't it? Why didn't John notice that his own wife was feeling? It's his job to know & notice such things.

I have my own theory, but I'd love to hear what you others have to say.

My theory is this:

I always get the idea throughout the entire film that John DID know all along that Viviana was feeling. But for some reason never turned her in.
He might not even have been so much aware of it either. He is genuinely surprised when they tell him what she is charged of.
Still, I get the impression that he somehow knew. And that Viviana herself also had the same feeling about him as I do! After all, why kiss him goodbye if he hadn't done something for her? Something that, despite what he was & that the Prozium denied him his feelings, made her care for him? That he never turned her in would be enough for me to love him too! Add also her wish for him to remember her. Why would she wish that if he didn't care for what happened to her?
I think John deep down does care, he just isn't aware of it. And Viviana knew that too.

Another part of my theory is John's reaction when being asked by Dupont about all this; "How was it that you came to miss it?"
John looks over to one of the guards first as if suddenly feeling threatened. Why would he look at the guard at all if he has nothing to hide? And his reply, "I've asked myself that question, sir. I don't know", sounds more like a white lie than the actual truth. I'm not saying that he's lying, on the contrary. But I also say that his answer is not the whole truth. It's the kind of answer that does not answer anything but still deliver what he belives is satisfactory.

I belive John did know all along. But deep down, despite the Prozium in his body, he cared enough for Viviana not to turn her in. In that case, how was that possible?
How it was exactly possible I don't know. But we do get a little hint of that it might be like this at the end of the film.
Remember that Father needed a man that "Had the capacity to feel & yet didn't know it"! That is John in a nutshell! And Dupont DID look at his files during their first meeting. Already then, something IS up! Already then, John is being watched. Already then he's being used.

That John later drops his Prozium by accident as an act of fate or a subconcious act on his part can be discussed back & forth. I'm not sure if anyone has the answer to that. The thing is that since it did happen & he began to feel, Dupont saw his chance to use John. He already knew before this happened that Preston would be the perfect tool.

Then there's also the fact that John is the Cleric that has the best ability to put himself into the Offenders' minds. Why he simply is the best. Behind the wall of Prozium in his veins, his capacity to feel slips through. I don't know how or why. I just believe it does.

So, what do you guys think? Did John know that Viviana was feeling all along or not? And if he did, why wasn't he the one who turned her in?

How come that he came to miss it?

[StarDancer]

I always had the impression that John knew, too and therein lies another story. It would make a good novel, with descriptions of John's conflicting feelings/non-feelings. I assume the Prozium was more to suppress, rather than totally take away feelings, something which may have been impossible to do anyway. I think deep down, the instinct to protect your loved ones over powered John and that's why he never said anything. If you assume John can sense these things and failed to do so, then you can also assume John was in denial and buried the knowledge. You could also ask why he didn't know about his own kids.

Another thing I wonder about... if one can sense, then one must be able to feel. People who are intuitive, usually are sensitive, but maybe there's a different type of sense thing working, I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me to be able to 'sense' a sense offender when you can't feel yourself.

[JenGe]

I think the key is when Partridge states, "You always knew." Preston has major denial problems through the entire film.

Here is a little tid-bit that Wimmer revealed at CHUD which is quite interesting...

" My assumption was that, though this future is not technically advanced, they have achieved a great understanding of human psychology (in their effort to subvert it) and DuPont is all too aware of Preston's psychological weaknesses - explaining why, at the end, he says when discussing the quandary of having an unfeeling agent infiltrate a feeling underground (which routinely tests its participants with polygraphs (for emotionality) that his provacateur would have to "Think like them and ... feel like them." Now - in his very first conversation with Preston, DuPont is psychologically probing him - asking, for instance, how it is that he is so good at identifying where Sense Offenders hide their contraband - Preston replies, (having never really reflected on it himself) to the effect ... "I ... I don't know. I suppose I just put myself in their position." To which DuPont replies "As if you were a Sense Offender?" Preston appears unbalanced by the remark and is only able to reply "I suppose you could say that, Sir." Then DuPont goes on to ask him about the incineration of his wife "How did you feel about that?" Probing, probing. Also, and I know this doesn't count but I had originally had dialogue in that scene that conveyed that when Preston was an infant, Preston's PARENTS were burned during the Upheaval (when all this change was going down) for sense offense and, orphaned, he was taken and placed in the Cleric Monastery, where he was raised and trained by the Grammaton Monks (which is why he's SO darn good) This implied to me that, for one year of his life, he experienced the unencumbered love of parents for one unremembered year of his life - and that was the grain of sand that had lain smoldering inside him all these years and which the pearl he came to be had formed around. DuPont was all too aware of this background and that Preston was vulnerable because of it and, ironically, is the reason WHY he is the best of all the Grammaton Clerics - he can understand Sense Offenders and track them down because he, unknowingly, has the most empathy with them (and thus is DuPont's best bet to get a Trojan Horse inside them). But I cut it out because I thought the scene was dragging. Now, I kind of wish I'd left it in. Maybe in deleted scenes, ..."


Kurt Wimmer @ CHUD.com Message Board

[/b][/quote]

[Imylover]

JenGe said:

I think the key is when Partridge states, "You always knew." Preston has major denial problems through the entire film.

Here is a little tid-bit that Wimmer revealed at CHUD which is quite interesting...

All this was VERY interesting & although it never ended up in the film, John's background more or less explains it all. Symbolically, he's almost like Anakin Skywalker - a Chosen One - by Faith itself. He was meant to be this. And, just like Anakin of SW, he becomes "evil" for a long while, but in the end redeems himself & confronts the evil leader.

This might seem strange, cliché & what ever, but I often compare John with both Anakin & Luke from SW. It depends when you compare in both stories but I see a lot of simularities. And the best part is that Wimmer probably didn't have SW in mind at all when he wrote EQ.

[StarDancer]

Imylover said:

Symbolically, he's almost like Anakin Skywalker - a Chosen One - by Faith itself. He was meant to be this. And, just like Anakin of SW, he becomes "evil" for a long while, but in the end redeems himself & confronts the evil leader.

This might seem strange, cliché & what ever, but I often compare John with both Anakin & Luke from SW. It depends when you compare in both stories but I see a lot of simularities. And the best part is that Wimmer probably didn't have SW in mind at all when he wrote EQ.

It's not cliche, it's myth. The good guy, turns bad and turns good again. George Lucas talked about using myth in connection with science fiction (something never done before) and says that's why the original trilogy are so huge. (I'd agree with him and add that Star Wars also had the help of the times it was created). So, Wimmer is using a formula Lucas rediscovered and has been a theme in legend for a long time. Wimmer sounds like a big science fiction fan and he's probably a Star Wars fan, so I'll bet all that was working on him to make a great movie. That and the old Orwellian society. I don't recall Wimmer being accused of ripping off Darth Vader and Star Wars, he was apparently accused of ripping off other movies, but I think the Gunkata, the chick flick factor (you know it's there because Preston is experiencing emotions) and the way he wraps all the influences together makes Eq original in it's own way.

[JenGe]

StarDancer said:

It's not cliche, it's myth. The good guy, turns bad and turns good again. George Lucas talked about using myth in connection with science fiction (something never done before) and says that's why the original trilogy are so huge.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Dune written before Star Wars?? Paul becomes quite ruthless and some would even consider to an extent evil depending on the moral code being used. Personally, I think this is the first Sci/fi that really took on at the whole "myth" aspect but I would agree that Star Wars was the first sci/fi film to do it.

There are a lot of connections between Paul and Luke/Anakin.

[StarDancer]

JenGe said:

Please correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Dune written before Star Wars?? Paul becomes quite ruthless and some would even consider to an extent evil depending on the moral code being used. Personally, I think this is the first Sci/fi that really took on at the whole "myth" aspect but I would agree that Star Wars was the first sci/fi film to do it.

There are a lot of connections between Paul and Luke/Anakin.

Sorry. Yeah, Dune, (great books!) was written before, but I was thinking more of movies being done, rather than books. The myth thing is why Dune was so wonderful, too. The Dune books are so involved and the plots so intricate, that it took a mini series to do it justice, not that awful 1984 movie they did.

Paul Atreides is such an interesting character. By birth, he becomes the leader of a house/planet and by circumstances he becomes a messiah. He realizes the error or the worship being done in his name and tries to correct it. I love the Dune books.

Another anti hero that I love from the 70's book genre is Thomas Covenant. A man who is a leper and is shunned by his neighbors, but in his fantasy world, he is physically perfect. The only problem is, he still thinks like a leper. The author, Stephen R. Donaldsen, also created two wonderful antiheros in The Gap Series that I love to read. Anti heros are the best for interest. Plain old heros are so boring. ;D

[Imylover]

Thank you for your replies on this, all of you. I'm glad I'm far from the only one seeing mythology in EQ.
And it seems that most of us seem to agree that Preston somehow carries feelings underneath. Considering his background + that Prozium does not remove feelings entirely, this whole event about his wife seems much less a mystery to me anymore. It's a pleasure to share ideas with you all.

You know, Wimmer could just as well have screwed this up, but he handled it very nicely. And EQ absolutely has its own style, no matter how many claim that it has directly stolen from this & that. I don't think Wimmer stole anything, rather was inspired from all those things & more that we don't know of. He has openly admitted that EQ is a fantasy in the bottom line, so that is how we shall look upon the film. It's a fantasy, a futuristic saga if you will. And that is what makes this film so cool. Because it has its own style! It reminds us of other things, still no other film looks like &/or feels exactly like Equlibrium. Not to me, anyway.

[JenGe]

Imylover said:

Thank you for your replies on this, all of you. I'm glad I'm far from the only one seeing mythology in EQ.... rather was inspired from all those things & more that we don't know of...

I think the "rabbit hole" goes deeper than we know... Its all the layers that keeps me going back for more.