Religion in Libria

[Zen]

Do you think there was religion in Libria and if there was what do you think it was?

[TheMacroprosopus]

I think there was religion before Libria.
One of the main things of religion is feeling, and belief. I doubt the government would like religion because it would show that there is a power above Father. It would give people something else to turn to. And the feeling behind religion would be completely dulled by Prozium.

So, I guess there is religion in Libria, in the sense of a "worship" of Father.

[JenGe]

Libria has a religion. It is a "state" religion that is why you find all the signs, symbols, and terminology as you do in other religions (cross, "clerics", tetragrammaton,...). Also DuPont's discourse on "faith" is very telling.

[gunnut]

It also resembles the state "religion" of the soviet union.

[Zen]

interesting

[Zen]

After a lomg time I think I finally would guess there faith was Taoist or Buddhist

[Aedh]

In my take on Libria there is a State Cult ... which is not the same as a "religion" as we understand the word to-day. (Think of ancient Rome and China.) By the time of "Roses" religion is so far back in history that its reintroduction is considered to be a symptom of mental aberrance.

[Cleric Russ]

Woa... Now this is a rather 'meaty' conversation!

I have to agree with Aedh to the point that the religion of Librian society was of a cult-like socio-political tool.

Where I might deviate from the cutist point is when it referes to the "existence" of a person within the Librian society.

General Order of the population is maintained by rote, "genuflection" [in this instance submittal to Prozium] and total conscription to the law. "Free" thought amongst the people needent be considered because "thought" itself would be outside the parameters of submission.

Now, here's where I see the deviation... The GRammaton Clerics.

Their's is a world of both genuflection as well as a 'type' of free will. Here's how I interpret that...

Grammaton Genuflection:

By the very nature of their training, honing and crafting the Grammaton Cleric comes into his/her roll as an elite arbitor to the Will of Father, the Cleric must not follow the law but must also be the law.

Though this rationalization could be considered highly cultish in the truest sense of the word- if this were applied to the Shaolin of China or to the Yamabushi of Japan; though these groups were herasied as cults in their own times they were in fact "fighting philosophies"- their religion was an adjunct to their lives with the martial arts connect to them as part of their preservation.

Grammaton Free Will:

Though the John Preston character specifies that he uses 'natural tendancies' to note whether someone's a Sense Offender or not, generally the Cleric must have some form of Free Will in order to plan attacks, strategies and to conduct detective style work as part of their job.

Combined all together, the use of Prozium and the in-depth training received, the Cleric is an amalgamation of Cultist political motivation with a martial rote to his/her actions and a steely motivated mind, constantly reminded of the cause that allows for a modecum of freewill to do what's "right" because of the training and indoctination.

When Rose asks John "Why he's alive"- he gives the "free will" response that, his is to serve the word of Father [definitely a high charged religious "under" tone! ] almost a verbatim axiom often attributed to The Samurai in service to their warlords.

So, in closing; if I'm reading into the undertone of the film- the general masses have no "spiritual faith" as such because that [in their minds] has failed them. Therefore the faith in mankind and Prozium is their "opium of the masses" both figuratively as well as literally.

The Grammaton Clerics on the other hand, are a dichotomy to the state faith of Librian society. They have an unwaivering faith in The Father [who's also a ghost- find the son and we've got us one doozy of a addition to this! ;D] and their message, whether by sheer presence or by inflicted justice, is the continued catalyst to the masses to always remember their place.

*I think I need another cold compress...*

[Aedh]

Looking for the son, Russ? ... you evidently haven't checked "the army" lately ... ;D

[Libby]

clericruss said:

When Rose asks John "Why he's alive"- he gives the "free will" response that, his is to serve the word of Father [definitely a high charged religious "under" tone! ] almost a verbatim axiom often attributed to The Samurai in service to their warlords.

*I think I need another cold compress...*

Um...who's Rose?

*thinks* Cleric Russ needs more than a cold compress...needs to watch the film again

[Aedh]

I wouldn't agree (were I a character standing in the room with them) that Preston's response to Mary's question was circular. "Freedom" and "will" are, in Libria--and some scholars would argue, outside Libria as well--not concepts that sit well together unless one understands "freedom" as possession of the ability to serve one's chosen cause. Pure freedom is a state of nullity in which nothing happens (Aristotle = pure potency); one can do this or that; but one needs to start doing at some point. Preston's chosen cause is service to Libria, which is not just perpetuating his own existence, but that of society as a whole. Mary, on the other hand, has chosen to serve nothing but herself. Both have freely chosen. Of course, we are not, strictly, on about religion at this point, because we haven't raised the questions of where the freedom comes from, or which choice is better.

[Cleric Russ]

libby said:

*I think I need another cold compress...*

Um...who's Rose?

*thinks* Cleric Russ needs more than a cold compress...needs to watch the film again [/quote]

DOH! I meant Mary- and yes- I need to get my daily dose of EQ PDQ or I'll be MIA and subsequently SOL... ;D

*how embarassing...*

[Libby]

aedh said:

Preston's chosen cause is service to Libria, which is not just perpetuating his own existence, but that of society as a whole.

But surely Preston did not choose initially...the choice was made for him. His freedom of choice began the moment he chose not to replace his interval.

aedh said:

Mary, on the other hand, has chosen to serve nothing but herself.

I wouldn't say it was for herself alone. We don't know how she came to cease her interval. We make assumptions based on the perceived relationships with Partridge/Jurgen/Preston/DuPont. The OS has her stating that she goes 'to the fire for a reason'. I think she has chosen freedom for all and freely chooses death to help attain that freedom.

[Aedh]

zen said:

After a lomg time I think I finally would guess there faith was Taoist or Buddhist

This is along the lines of the religion spoken of in "Roses;" non-theistic religion like Confucianism (which you can practice even if you have a second belief-system alongside it). I think there is no question the theistic religion (Christianity, Islam, and their ilk) would be definitely EC-10 and their practicioners subject to immediate combustion (a la Nero!)

[frivolity]

libby said:

aedh said:

Preston's chosen cause is service to Libria, which is not just perpetuating his own existence, but that of society as a whole.

But surely Preston did not choose initially...the choice was made for him. His freedom of choice began the moment he chose not to replace his interval.

That would be my feeling on it too.

[Aedh]

libby said:

aedh said:

Preston's chosen cause is service to Libria, which is not just perpetuating his own existence, but that of society as a whole.

But surely Preston did not choose initially...the choice was made for him. His freedom of choice began the moment he chose not to replace his interval.

*Aedh dons his own teacher's cap and piped gown* But Preston ... and all the other Clerics and Sweepers, in fact everyone ... has surely thought about not being on the interval; in fact, I think that Father's propaganda hits on that theme a lot. 'If it were not for Prozium ... see what wars and disasters we would have ... But thanks to the fact that we do have it, we are not like that.' So a world without Prozium was not unthinkable to Preston before he ceased his interval. And if it wasn't unthinkable--and he was actually encouraged to think about it-- can we really say that he had no choice?

[americangoddess]

Interestingly enough, "YHWH" (or the name of God) is known as the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew. Since the ancient Hebrew Scriptures did not contain any vowels, they just called it the Tetragrammaton.

[Aedh]

That is a good thought ... although the actual word "Tetragrammaton" is Greek (tetra = four, plus grammata = letters); by Late Classical times, Hebrew had already become a dead language, and even Jews had to discuss their own Scriptures in Greek (or Aramaic or Syriac). In fact, the Septuagint, and Targums, existed for the benefit of those Jews who couldn't even read Hebrew. To my knowlege (vouched for by one Hebrew scholar I know), the four-letter Name of God is referred to in (modern) Hebrew as ha-Shem ( = "the Name").

While the most ancient Hebrew writing did not contain vowels, by Late Classical times, the scholars known as Massoretes had devised a system of markings to indicate vowels. They did not, however, apply markings to the Name. Instead, next to it, they inserted alterate references to God, usually Adonai ( = "Lord," cognate to the name of Adonis) or Elohim ( = "God").

[americangoddess]

I know it's Greek, but the Hebrew's used it.

I'm not sure what this implies as far as the movie goes, but I could sit here all day and hypothasis and create theories as to why they used this word to name their military force.

[Witcher Wolf]

Heh, if you look around you'll probably find numerous threads on that very topic.

[Aedh]

I'll have my own take on that in "The Aion Engine."

[frivolity]

clericwolf said:

Heh, if you look around you'll probably find numerous threads on that very topic.

I seem to remember that discussion, Wolf, not long after I arrived here.

[Witcher Wolf]

Yep frivvy, it's either on this board or it's been moved to the Hall of Destruction. Come to think of it...might be in the Freedom Reading Room too.

[Libby]

aedh said:

But Preston ... and all the other Clerics and Sweepers, in fact everyone ... has surely thought about not being on the interval;

Can't see what you're basing that on at all...

The whole point is that Preston is the ONLY one who actually truly believes in the system, without any doubt and with complete faith, until killing Partridge forces him to rethink his position. That's why his transition to sense offender is so emotionally devastating. Ironically, it's his Cleric training which gives him the strength to do what he eventually realises is right. The whole film is predicated on this.

As we've discussed before, it's likely that random testing takes places for lesser beings such as Sweepers (not the brightest of Librians, given their reaction times) and other citizens, but whether any citizen or Cleric actively considers not taking their interval is difficult to quantify. We know Robbie made that choice but again that was after his mother was taken away and it's highly likely that dosing children is a tricky business.

I think that Father's propaganda hits on that theme a lot. 'If it were not for Prozium ... see what wars and disasters we would have ... But thanks to the fact that we do have it, we are not like that.' So a world without Prozium was not unthinkable to Preston before he ceased his interval. And if it wasn't unthinkable--and he was actually encouraged to think about it-- can we really say that he had no choice?

Again, can't see how you make that argument. Sense offenders and the Resistence aside (otherwise we wouldn't have a film) Librians know from that very propaganda how the world was when human emotion almost destroyed them. They have embraced Prozium, accepted the loss of the 'dizzying highs and abysmal lows' and a world without Prozium IS unthinkable to the majority.

You believe that 'a world without Prozium was not unthinkable to Preston before he ceased his interval.' Again what do do base that on? His statement that 'We'll get it all eventually' could be construed as referring not only to all the EC-10, but to eradicating sense offence itself, so strongly did he believe.

The whole 'Whenever we return from the Nethers to the City it reminds me why we do what we do.' further strengthens the argument. The Nethers is Chaos, the City is Order.

I stand by what I said. Preston's choice was made for him.

*Aedh dons his own teacher's cap and piped gown*

Sorry, what does this have to do with the price of fish? I wasn't aware that we had got into a pissing contest...

So I'm a teacher...it's my profession. I made reference to some of my qualifications in another thread purely to validate a response to your sweeping statement about literature since 1900, since you plainly believe you're better read, better informed and better qualified than everyone else around here.

And yes...I am ticked off. I don't appreciate anyone looking down their nose at me or my friends.

And my gown and mortar board are stufffed somewhere in a cupboard...don't need to wear them to prove my worth.

[Aedh]

libby said:

aedh said:

*Aedh dons his own teacher's cap and piped gown*

Sorry, what does this have to do with the price of fish? I wasn't aware that we had got into a pissing contest...

So I'm a teacher...it's my profession. I made reference to some of my qualifications in another thread purely to validate a response to your sweeping statement about literature since 1900, since you plainly believe you're better read, better informed and better qualified than everyone else around here.

And yes...I am ticked off. I don't appreciate anyone looking down their nose at me or my friends.

And my gown and mortar board are stufffed somewhere in a cupboard...don't need to wear them to prove my worth.

Whoa ... I was just trying to indicate that I wanted to talk "academically" and not seem to be hitting at anyone personally ... I guess that went wrong!! OK ... let me just make my way out the back here ... and I won't slam the door ...

[Libby]

aedh said:

Whoa ... I was just trying to indicate that I wanted to talk "academically" and not seem to be hitting at anyone personally ... I guess that went wrong!! OK ... let me just make my way out the back here ... and I won't slam the door ...

Fair enough...my feathers are easily ruffled if I think people are trying to be superior in a forum made up of absolute equals.

So...back to the topic at hand ;D

Can I throw another curveball by suggesting that Preston's 'choice' not to replace his interval when he got to Equilibrium was in fact not a real choice at all...given that the EQ centre was closed 'due to terrorist activity'?

Once Brandt and thus DuPont were informed about the broken ampoule then it was a simple matter to 'close' the centre and see if their plan would work...and of course it did.

[Aedh]

Nice idea! I'm sure Brandt picked that up from his conversation with Robbie ... it would have been a simple matter to arrange with Dupont. I'm convinced that the reason that whole thing went forward is because while Dupont himself was "off the dose," and he knew and authorised certain people to be "off the dose," Preston was NOT one of them ... amd he wanted to let Preston set himself up with an offence for which he could be taken out. The whole mentality is rather reminiscent of the way some leftists were purged during the Spanish Civil War ... intentionally given treasonous missions.

[Libby]

aedh said:

Nice idea! I'm sure Brandt picked that up from his conversation with Robbie ... it would have been a simple matter to arrange with Dupont. I'm convinced that the reason that whole thing went forward is because while Dupont himself was "off the dose," and he knew and authorised certain people to be "off the dose," Preston was NOT one of them ... amd he wanted to let Preston set himself up with an offence for which he could be taken out. The whole mentality is rather reminiscent of the way some leftists were purged during the Spanish Civil War ... intentionally given treasonous missions.

Agreed...but he NEEDED Preston to come of the dose 'voluntarily', maybe because 'for years' those DuPont tried to get into the underground failed the polygraph test. Thus Preston was the perfect, innocent plant to finally bring down the resistence. But the best laid plans of mus musculus and homo sapiens etc...etc

[Gothicgds]

The whole concept of religion strikes me as EC-10. How many wars have been started in the name of religion, how many people killed over religious beliefs?

Nah. If you're trying to get rid of emotions (and war), then organized religion has to go.

Anyway, that's my $.02 worth. I'll stay clear of the debate about the finer points of government-as-religion and free will, because in-depth philosophy makes my eyes glaze over.

[frivolity]

libby said:

As we've discussed before, it's likely that random testing takes places for lesser beings such as Sweepers (not the brightest of Librians, given their reaction times) and other citizens, but whether any citizen or Cleric actively considers not taking their interval is difficult to quantify. We know Robbie made that choice but again that was after his mother was taken away and it's highly likely that dosing children is a tricky business.

Sorry as this is a bit OT, but I assumed the sweepers were dosed 'differently'. I mean, they were really point & shoot wind up toy soldiers, and I do wonder if they were heavily dosed, or had something 'extra' in their interval that would ensure this and not result in either a sweeper rebelling/refusing to comply, or breaking down on the job. I mean, imagine the mental affect on a human being that's made to act as a killing machine, probably not by choice as I also assume that people were assigned to their job. Emotionally repressed or not, that would surely have an effect. Could Prozium dampen things down to a point to prevent a mental breakdown/depresssion or suicide?

And what about children? They learn through play, at what age would they be dosed from and how would being emotionally repressed affect their development and interaction with others? Such an isolated life.

It must be an exact science.

And what about when a Librian citizen is past being a productive servant? Do they get retired or does it all go Logan's Run or the Soylent Green route (obviously we don't know, but there wasn't much greenery in Libria)?