Board Home | Search | Login Also see the site's Gun Kata page for more information. The Resistance HQ :: Resistance Forums :: Gun Kata :: Gun Kata - How real is it ? Author Topic: Gun Kata - How real is it ? (Read 4,813 times) ClericRyan Grammaton Cleric First Class Dupont's Homeboy member is offline I have a pre-dawn combustion to witness Joined: Jul 2003 Gender: Male Posts: 784 Location: Toronto, Canada Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Thread Started on Mar 30, 2006, 11:11am » Hello all Gun Kata people This post is long and detailed, but if you like gun kata as much as I do, you might enjoy some of the points I make. I orginally posted this a couple years ago, but felt like bringing it back since it was sort of hidden in someone elses thread. First off, Let me say I am by no means a firearms expert, although I have fired over a dozen different handguns at the shooting range, and many rifles and the two main military assault riffles(ak47 and m16) My expertise lies in the area of martial arts, mainly the Japanese schools, however I have a fair amount of knowledge about all forms of hand to hand combat. I am also Duponts homeboy but that is another story. Il try to keep this short but my posts have a tendency to be long so, patience may be required here for reading. First off, just to define Gun Kata: It is a fictional form of combat using guns, but focusing on the precision movements and stances( or kata) of a martial art. Now i realize that is not a direct and perfect definition, I suppose only Wimmer himself could give it a perfect definition since he was the individual who invented this fictional combat. It is not a true martial art as the definition of martial arts is far more specific to a lack of any projectile weapons, or rather a focus on hand to hand combat. Martial Arts Def 1 Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural. Def 2 Any of several Oriental arts of weaponless self-defense; usually practiced as a sport That being said, it is important to know that many fictional forms of martial arts exist as well. Usually seen in fighting video games like street fighter and mortal kombat. However the main question that I want to address is how realistic or feasible Gun Kata is, one has to also examine how realistic these "fictional" martial art/combat techniques are. One example I wil give for this point would be something Im sure everyone has seen in many kung fu/martial art/asian action films. The super jump, or fly kick, or wall jump/flip. You know when the hero does a 6 foot jump kick near the end of the fight ussualy. We have all seen this many times, usually in higher budget films that can afford to do good wire work. A common argument on many martial art forums is : Could a move like this ever be preformed in real life/reality. As all arguments go, there is only opinion to really go on. However it is widely excepted among many martial art enthusiasts that such maneuvers or similar ones COULD be preformed by a master of Kung Fu or Karate, and possibly some other of the more ancient forms. The highest vertical jump ever recorded is, the world record high jump by Javier Sotomayor of Cuba with a jump of 2.45meters , just over 8 feet vertical height. in the Olympics The longest jump was recorded by American D.Powel at 8.95 meters , that’s 29.36 feet. Also anyone who watches pro basketball, knows for a fact that a 4 - 6 vertical jump is not even that rare at all. Now granted that this is not a direct comparison, but we are discussing the feasibility and realistic marit of human physical abilities so it is only right we examine and consider the proper world records. There are some things to consider when you think about how this relates to martial art. The main thing being that neither of these world record holders were martial artists. In fact they had trained their entire lives in order to set the records they did. What you must then understand is that even those athletic champions, did not train as hard or as intensively that the great master martial artists did and are said to have done in ancient times. This all relates to the world(universe) of Equilibrium Sure by today’s standards they were at the height of intense phiscal training, how ever in Far Eastern history with literally no distractions at all, no entertainment, very basic but nutritious diets and absolutly no other responsibilities other then to become the best possible fighter they can be. This type of dedication does not exist in our society today, since most of have far too many options and possibilities at our finger tips at all times, and all of us have an incredible amount of distractions and entertainment literally force fed to us. In any event, it is in fact feasible then for someone who had spent their entire life training intensly, WOULD be able to perform maneuvers that would seem impossible. And so we come to gun kata AND (this is extremely important) the world of EQ, since that is the fictional universe it was created in, first we must examine its feasibility in its native universe. A Grammaton Cleric would need such extensive training, you might be able to compare it to the training that ancient martial art masters would have to go through. A comparable training program to a large extent because of the lack of any entertainment, and the emotional constraints and medication (Prozium) that would undoubtedly be required of a cleric in training, considering the universe. I know this has become a long post, so let me try and sum up what my point is. It is no secret that humans only use a small capacity of their mental and physical potential. That being said, it is quite obviously feasible that given the right training and circumstance, a person would be able to do things that most of us would classify as impossible. Regardless of how you feel about Darwinism, it is also no secret that in combat of any kind, the strong predominantly survive, of course excluding modern warfare of smart bombs and machine guns. However, if a person trained Gun Kata to the point of mastering it, there would come a time when their skills would require real testing. If you imagined a grammaton training centre, you would have to assume that high level training would require live ammunition, and in that case the selection process would be extensive, to the point that many, I would say up to 75% of Gun Kata prefects would be killed just in the training. However if one was able to survive that type of training and learn the forms and kata to the point that ancient martial art masters would achieve, then I do believe that not only is Gun Kata possible, but it would be almost impossible for a gun kata master to loose a gun fight vs. a person who was not a master. As it would be nearly impossible for a Master Martial artist to be defeated in hand to hand combat by someone who was not also a master of martial art. Some of the points that were brought up about the challenges gun kata would face are very valid. "lack of sight and accuracy. firing a handgun requires 2 hands when wanting to have dead on precision, plus a line of sight to target. " Posted by Pyro Also it was mentioned that pistol discharges close to your head or face can be extremely dangerous, however performing a fly kick off a 3 meter drop would also be extremely dangerous to a martial artist not trained extensively. Another point was made about recoil, as this would be another challenge. As for modern day hand guns, there are a few ways to reduce that recoil, and as tech. improves you will soon seen recoilless handguns. Of course in EQ they use futuristic guns that do not exist in our modern day world, however we are close to developing similar weapons. I realize that replicas have been made, however I am not talking about a replica. And so that is the end of this post... finally, hope someone out there actually read the whole thing. My point is quite simple: not only is Gun Kata possible, but it would be almost impossible for a gun kata master to loose a gun fight agenst a person who was not a master. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged "Although you nore I may not always agree with it, it is not the message that is important, it is our obedience to it… father's will… call it faith, you have it I assume" ebime Resistance Member member is offline "Everybody dies, but only a few ever truely live!" Joined: Apr 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 25 Location: Quebec, Canada Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #1 on Apr 16, 2006, 1:50am » I did read all of your long (and well elaborated) post and I can't help but agree 100% with you. I am looking forward to some more of such quality posts in the future! Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Witcher Wolf Grammaton Cleric First Class member is offline Monster hunter for hire. Will work for Orens! Joined: Oct 2003 Gender: Male Posts: 4,779 Location: UK - England Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #2 on Apr 16, 2006, 7:05am » Ryan is the man! Nicely done there CR. It fits well with my theories and some of the things that didn't quite make the Martial Solution. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Ashes: my EQ Fiction The Chronicles of Wyrden: Webcomic Optics Resistance Member member is offline "To Save humanity, we must destroy it." Joined: Apr 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 45 Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #3 on Apr 16, 2006, 3:03pm » Awsome post. The only thing is, gun kata if it were a real pratice woldn't be identical to the one in the film - it would require a lot more movement as I doubt someone could dodge bullets by standing still. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged http://cashcrate.com/697309 - Make money online http://www.surveysafari.x10hosting.com/ - Ny website - a guide to making money online entropy156 Sense Offender member is offline Joined: May 2008 Posts: 1 Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #4 on May 17, 2008, 10:06pm » I'm afraid I must disagree with ClericRyan regarding the feasibility of GunKata in reality. The unavoidable problem is that it is based in a completely fictional premise: that by statistical analysis of gunfights, one can accurately anticipate the enemy and by adopting various poses, avoid their statisitically likely trajectories while returning fire to their statisitically likely positions. It makes for spectacularly cool scenes in the film, but even the most cursory consideration of the idea will demonstrate why it would turn it's practitioners into immaculately groomed, well-dressed corpses. Furthermore, several of the statements made about firearms were inaccurate. For example, a two handed stance is not necessary for lethal accuracy in a close quarters gunfight....and let's face it, if you're using a pistol and it's *not* a close quarters fight, you are not very bright and in really big trouble. Allow me to demonstrate: Look around the room you're in right now. Is there a door? I want you to take your index finger and point directly at the doorknob. You did that pretty accurately....didn't you? In fact, I'll bet you did it without having to brace your index finger or steady it with your off-hand, and have been able to do it since you were very young. The same ability can be, and is applied to firearms. It's called point-shooting. Through practice and familiarity with the firearm in question, you can hit a man-sized target accurately enough to kill, at combat ranges (roughly 21 feet, according to FBI statistics) without using the sights at all. Recoil management is a seperate issue which is easily overcome by proper firearms design and training. It's just physics. I will agree with his final point, with qualification: that "it would be almost impossible for a gun kata master to loose(sic) a gun fight agenst(sic) a person who was not a master." Well.....yes. A skilled and experienced gunfighter will usually beat an inexperienced and less-skilled gunfighter in a single-combat, one-on-one, Old West-style gunfight or duel....the kind of gunfight that almost never happens. In fact, it's sometimes even possible that a skilled gunfighter can engage multiple less-experienced enemies with a pistol in each hand, kill them all, and walk away unscathed (for a historical example of this, google an Old West gunfighter called Mysterious Dave Mather) but it's veeeeery unlikely. You see....all it takes is for one of those inexperienced guys to get lucky once while they spray your general area with poorly aimed fire and then you've got a serious leak. Anyway...that's all I've got to say about the matter. If my credentials are important, I've got 12 years of experience in a spectacularly fatal martial art, and 30 years of experience with firearms of every imaginable type. Oh, and my current record is an 8:1 kill ratio playing paintball....and I play with a semi-auto pistol in each hand. But I don't dress as well as the Clerics.... ;-) Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Aedh Evil Genius In Residence member is offline Don't steal. The Government hates competition. Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 8,630 Location: With my love. Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #5 on May 23, 2008, 12:57am » Welcome to the boards, entropy156. Interesting thoughts, and thanks for sharing them. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Check out more dystopian/romantic sci-fi at the official Queen City website! >< >< >< dracotas Resistance Member member is offline Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 10 Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #6 on May 23, 2008, 10:51pm » on both accounts nicely said...and yes it is possibility, BUT you are only looking at it from a clerics point of view and not the attacker. a persons movement from point A to point B can and is to some extent predictable, and the method of holding firearm and the way they shoot can and is to some extent predictable. but what isn't predictable is the direction of a person firing the weapon. there are to many variables to take into consideration. for example. Lighting type of weapon used. experience obstacles range of the weapon is the weapon sighted to the user are the weapons aimed or fired from the hip? the questions can and do go on. Gun Kata can assist in minimizing potential harm but it sure won't take the risk away entirely, and as stated before with the lack of movement and cover from fire you a sure to be a sitting target. however this is still an awesome aspect of the film and it is something as a martial artist and a gun user that i am going to study. wank factor is a huge issue here Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Aedh Evil Genius In Residence member is offline Don't steal. The Government hates competition. Joined: May 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 8,630 Location: With my love. Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #7 on May 24, 2008, 12:00am » One thing I have found by experience, that must never be discounted, is the error factor. Your moves may be based on opponents who are aiming at you flawlessly. But if there is one whose hand is wobbling and s/he can't aim properly, then your stunningly calculated avoidance move won't work because the "correct" shot, meant to kill you but which you would have avoided, winds up blowing your arse off in the final analysis anyway. Because while you might be able to account for all the correct moves your opponents might make, there is no way in hell you could ever allow for all the mistakes they might make. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Check out more dystopian/romantic sci-fi at the official Queen City website! >< >< >< ViolentMessiah Resistance Member member is offline Joined: Jun 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 40 Location: florida, united states Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #8 on Jun 7, 2008, 2:54pm » anyone who has taken the time to analyze the multiple factors described here definitely deserves respect just for the effort. alot of interesting points have been made here. i personally believe that there is a reason why the word "fictional" is used everytime someone defines what gunkata is. to believe in the possibility of gunkata is to believe that you can predict future events through statistical analysis and as everything from crime, weather and world events have shown, thats impossible. i agree with entropy156's statement that all you need is to get lucky once to silence any so-called expert. these past months where i live that have been multiple shootings of cops. in one incident, one teenage kid somehow managed to get the drop on three cops, killed one of them and took off in his car to be apprehended later. the amazing thing is that the kid didnt even have his weapon on him. he somehow got to his car, pulled out the rifle and shot three trained police officers who already had their guns drawn in a head to head shootout. if thats not luck i dont know what is. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged ClericJoshua379 Sense Offender member is offline A nearly unforgivable lapse Cleric. Joined: Oct 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 3 Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #9 on Oct 3, 2008, 2:41pm » Some good points raised here. I feel that as shown in the movie it is not actually usable. What I feel is the defining moment of the gun kata speech and might actually be feasible is this phrase: "each fluid position representing a maximum kill zone" Kata's in real martial arts teach the perfect execution of techniques and then you work on using it in imperfect situations. Also point shooting seems to be what the clerics use and it could possibly work if you are extremely skilled that you could move and shoot successfully at the same time as demonstrated. Training would have to be incredibly efficient and dedicated probably there would be fatalities, accepted as fair sacrifice to discern the skilled and to improve them. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Cleric Emma Wills Resistance Member member is offline -I have a gun, Soirez. -They give you a gun? -..No, but I'll jump out from this desk and tackle you. Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 20 Location: England. Tally-ho, then! Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #10 on Feb 10, 2009, 3:54pm » Well, I think that you're 100% right. Personally, I believe that if one was as specifically trained as someone like Cleric John Preston, one would definitely be able to perform such things as jumps, and the super-fast, super-accurate firing shown in the movie. However, I do agree with entropy156 that one does *not* require two hands to shoot a handgun- that's why it's called a HANDgun. You shoot it with one HAND. An assault rifle would, no doubt, need both arms (obviously), but in my recollection of the movie, I don't seem to remember Preston using an assault rifle at any point during a Gun Kata fight. I do, however, have one question- My friend has a theory that you'd shoot yourself with your own bullets while performing it. I disagree, and was just wondering what the rest of you experts have to say on this? Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged -There could be guns in the forest. -What sort of guns? -You know...the shooting kind... Cleric Emma Wills Resistance Member member is offline -I have a gun, Soirez. -They give you a gun? -..No, but I'll jump out from this desk and tackle you. Joined: Feb 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 20 Location: England. Tally-ho, then! Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #11 on Feb 10, 2009, 4:01pm » But, just to add, the thing is that although they're taught Gun Kata on a basis of the typically predicted moves of the enemy, you can't always predict them. For instance, when we learn Katas in Karate, then do Bunkai with them, the attackers are first breifed by our sensei on which moves they're meant to use, and the defenders also know. In real life, the defender isn't going to know which moves their attacker's going to use next, so they'll have to go with their gut and try to predict their movements using whatever knowledge of human anatomy and psychology they have. On the other hand (and, yes, I AM condradicting myself here), I suppose that when Gun Kata is taught, human psychology is also taught to some degree, which is probably how they know what 'predictable moves' are. However, what if you were attacked by a complete maniac who didn't quite fit into what we call the 'normal' spectrum of things? I have to say- you all make very valid and interesting points, and it's great to be on a forum with vaguely mature people who listen to others and don't flame anything and everything they disagree with *COUGH*AnimeforumsandJaniceDickinsonsBlog*COUGH* Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged -There could be guns in the forest. -What sort of guns? -You know...the shooting kind... triskaideka Sense Offender member is offline Joined: Mar 2010 Gender: Male Posts: 1 Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #12 on Mar 27, 2010, 11:03pm » Mar 30, 2006, 11:11am, ClericRyan wrote: My expertise lies in the area of martial arts, mainly the Japanese schools, however I have a fair amount of knowledge about all forms of hand to hand combat. I am also Duponts homeboy but that is another story. It is not a true martial art as the definition of martial arts is far more specific to a lack of any projectile weapons, or rather a focus on hand to hand combat. Martial Arts Def 1 Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural. Def 2 Any of several Oriental arts of weaponless self-defense; usually practiced as a sport i find this part inaccurate. first off I am Asian and I am learning/studying a martial art. 1. Martial Arts are not limited to Asian/Oriental arts. there are many western/everywhereelse martial arts, to name a few: Pankration (ancient Greek) Savate (French) Fechtbücher (German collection of martial arts) Flos Duellatorum (Italian collection of martial arts) Boxing (the Western one) Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (obviously) (trivia: the word martial is actually derived from Mars, the Roman god of war... surprise surprise he's western) 2. There are Armed forms of martial arts. in fact there are more forms of armed martial arts than unarmed (again only naming a few): Kendo (Japanese fencing; "way of the sword") Kenjutsu (Japanese fencing art form; "art of the sword") Bojutsu (Bo staff) Western Fencing (there are alot ; all of them) Filipino Martial Arts (arnis / escrima / kali ; all names for the same thing ; they all include unarmed, knife, stick/sword and more) Iaido (a very specific Japanese martial art associated with the smooth, controlled movements of drawing the sword from its scabbard, striking or cutting an opponent, removing blood from the blade, and then replacing the sword in the scabbard.) **and of course *projectile* based martial arts Gukgung / Gungsul / Gungsido / Gungdo (4 Korean archery forms) Kyudo (Japanese archery) more accurate definition on wikipedia: Martial arts or fighting arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. and the wikipedia thread goes on to say: Martial arts all have a very similar objective: defend oneself or others from physical threat. In addition, some martial arts are linked to beliefs such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism or Shinto while others follow a particular code of honor. Martial arts are considered as both an art and a science. Many arts are also practiced competitively, most commonly as combat sports, but may also take the form of dance. The term martial arts refers to the art of warfare (derived from Mars, the Roman god of war) and comes from a 15th-century European term for fighting arts now known as historical European martial arts. A practitioner of martial arts is referred to as a martial artist. ... so yeah i just wanted to rectify the definition of martial art. i'm cool with the rest of your assessment though i am just saddened that for one who says he specializes in asian martial arts as you say didn't remember or know about kendo/kenjutsu or filipino martial arts and the rest. which are pretty popular by the way. i think gunkata could be possible lolz Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged Lightfighter Grammaton Cleric member is offline Gun control means hitting what you aim for Joined: Feb 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 113 Location: Waipahu, HI Re: Gun Kata - How real is it ? « Reply #13 on Feb 2, 2011, 11:07am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello, all. I have been reading some of your ideas. The Airsoft one seems to be about the most feasible. There are a lot of police departments that are using Airsoft as a low cost training tool to simulate force on force scenarios. There are Airsoft paintball munitions available, but the availability of these is somewhat limited in some areas. I do love the idea of making the gun Kata a reality. I am currently serving in the US Army and have a reasonable amount of experience involving firearms and marksmanship. As far as the practical application and accuracy, I should think that it would boil down to a practice called point shooting and reflexive fire techniques. If you are interested in either of these topics, some good reads are those from Colonel Rex Applegate, Jeff Cooper, and the book 'Bull's Eyes Don't Shoot Back', among others. There are also several excellent shooting materials available from various training agencies, such as Magpul Dynamics, Gunsite Academy, and Paladin Press just to name a few. Now, while these institutions focus on primarily traditional methods of utilizing firearms, the quality and quantity of the information available is excellent. Like a very wise man once said to me, 'Never stop learning.' Another very wise man also said, 'There's no one way to do anything.' In regards to firearms, the Beretta 92 series and the Glock are excellent choices. Reliability and capacity for either model are outstanding. However, it all comes down to personal preference. I am a big fan of the Springfield Armory XD series. I currently have one and to date have put almost 5,000 rounds of ammunition of various brands through it with only one malfunction. That's pretty solid no matter how you slice it up. Personally, I find that the Beretta and Glock don't fit my hand as well. I have been genetically predisposed with what I call 'little girl hands', and the XD just feels right. The biggest thing to remember is that the operative word in gunfight is 'fight'. While the pursuit of martial arts and combat arts to further enhance your personal well-being is admirable, the mental focus to survive any violent encounter must become ingrained. The most important thing to remember, while this pursuit may be fun, you must be able to defend yourself whenever the need arises. Also, you must always take into account you surroundings. Remember the rule regarding firearms: 1) Treat all firearms as if the were loaded. 2) Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to destroy. 3) Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until your sights are on target. 4) Be sure of your target. Finally, I am assigned to the 25th Infantry Division, 'Tropic Lightning', out of Schofield Barracks, HI. If anyone is close by, I would love to get together and discuss any ideas you have. Link to Post - Back to Top   Logged It's not important that you hit something; It's important that you hit something important. 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